​​​​​​​A THOUGHT ON THE LIMO STOP

[Chris Bristow]

The testimony of Hargis, Chaney, Jackson, and Martin regarding the limo slowing/stopping is highly qualified. They were tasked with keeping Pace with the limo throughout the parade. They were expected to stay near the rear bumper and not pull up right alongside JFK and Jackie. That is a difference of about  10 ft before hargis' exhaust is pointing right at JFK and Jackie.

To keep that tight window they had to monitor the speed of the limo very closely. If for instance, the limo suddenly slowed from 8 mph  to 2 mph  for just 3 seconds it would change the position of the limo on Elm by about 27 ft. That would mean Hargis and Chaney would pass right by JFK  and Jackie  and be out beyond the front hood of the limo if they didn't hit the brakes right away.

 All four cops testified to the limo either slowing to almost a stop or coming to a momentary complete stop. How could all four cops, who are closely watching their position relative to the limo, make such a huge  error in their perception?

 

[Vince Palamara]

See my latest book Honest Answers About the Murder of President John F. Kennedy. I devote a chapter to the limo slowing or stopping. 72 witnesses said the limo either slowed or stopped, indicating it definitely slowed down.

[Chris Bristow]

6 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

See my latest book Honest Answers About the Murder of President John F. Kennedy. I devote a chapter to the limo slowing or stopping. 72 witnesses said the limo either slowed or stopped, indicating it definitely slowed down.

I think so many witnesses using the phrase slowed or stopped is compelling. For people to be unsure as to whether it just slowed or actually stopped would mean it had to go very very slow.

[Matthew Koch]

Check out this channel's videos, you can see the slow down better. The question is partly an issue of semantics of whether when people said stopped; if they meant [rolling] stop, like when you don't fully stop at a stop sign or if they mean [full] stop. If it is a full stop was that taken out the film?  
https://www.youtube.com/@antdavisonNZ

[Chris Bristow]

40 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

Check out this channel's videos, you can see the slow down better. The question is partly an issue of semantics of whether when people said stopped; if they meant [rolling] stop, like when you don't fully stop at a stop sign or if they mean [full] stop. If it is a full stop was that taken out the film?  
https://www.youtube.com/@antdavisonNZ

In the Z film the limo never slows below 8 miles per hour. We can measure that accurately because we know it's filming at 18.6 frames per second and all of the Zapruderr frames are available for free download. Slowing from 13 to 8 mph doesn't match up with people saying it almost stopped., imo.

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

In the Z film the limo never slows below 8 miles per hour. We can measure that accurately because we know it's filming at 18.6 frames per second and all of the Zapruderr frames are available for free download. Slowing from 13 to 8 mph doesn't match up with people saying it almost stopped., imo.

When I watch the Z film ( 2,458 times I am guessing ) I see the limo slowing down for a 2+ second period almost to a stop, just before and during the head shot.

It looks like the motorcycle escorts had to hit their brakes right then and also driver William Greer turns around almost 180 degrees just before the head shot. Greer's head remains looking at JFK during the shot and upon seeing it, he turns back around and quickly accelerates off.

It's common sense that Greer would instinctually let off the accelerator when he turns his upper body and head almost full around to look behind him like that.

And it was the slowing of the limo that enabled Clint Hill to cover the ground he needed to reach the back of the limo from the Queen Mary.

Hill reached the back of the limo "after" JFK was hit and just as Greer was hitting the gas hard. Hill was lucky. He was a micro second away from not getting a firm grip on the rear handle bar and losing his footing and falling, possibly then being run over by the Queen Mary.

In my opinion, you can see the limo slowing down that much just before and during the head shot by observing the speed of film above the limo where you see Moorman and others. Before the slowing the limo is zipping by them at a clip that does look 10+ miles per hour. Then they don't zip by. Stark and obvious slowing.

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

A witness perspective of a limousine slowing down from 20 to 8 mph, that is a delta of 12 mph, probably seems to them that it almost came to a stop.

[Eddy Bainbridge]

16 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

See my latest book Honest Answers About the Murder of President John F. Kennedy. I devote a chapter to the limo slowing or stopping. 72 witnesses said the limo either slowed or stopped, indicating it definitely slowed down.

Hi Vince, does your research into the limo stop extend to people stating that JFK slumped forward at this time? Dan Rather said JFK fell forward and I'm sure other people describe a slump. My view is that JFK's head injuries can be explained by the braking/stop forcing JFK forward and his face looking downward when hit by a second bullet excised from the Z film. I think his backward motion was caused by the accelerating car after the second shot.

[Vince Palamara]

Not really into the specific area.

[Chris Bristow]

8 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

When I watch the Z film ( 2,458 times I am guessing ) I see the limo slowing down for a 2+ second period almost to a stop, just before and during the head shot.

It looks like the motorcycle escorts had to hit their brakes right then and also driver William Greer turns around almost 180 degrees just before the head shot. Greer's head remains looking at JFK during the shot and upon seeing it, he turns back around and quickly accelerates off.

It's common sense that Greer would instinctually let off the accelerator when he turns his upper body and head almost full around to look behind him like that.

And it was the slowing of the limo that enabled Clint Hill to cover the ground he needed to reach the back of the limo from the Queen Mary.

Hill reached the back of the limo "after" JFK was hit and just as Greer was hitting the gas hard. Hill was lucky. He was a micro second away from not getting a firm grip on the rear handle bar and losing his footing and falling, possibly then being run over by the Queen Mary.

In my opinion, you can see the limo slowing down that much just before and during the head shot by observing the speed of film above the limo where you see Moorman and others. Before the slowing the limo is zipping by them at a clip that does look 10+ miles per hour. Then they don't zip by. Stark and obvious slowing.

There are valid reasons the limo needed to slow down. But the speed of the limo can be accurately measured and I can't wrap my head around the cops maybe 3 ft away calling 8mph a stop or almost a stop.

[Chris Bristow]

8 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

A witness perspective of a limousine slowing down from 20 to 8 mph, that is a delta of 12 mph, probably seems to them that it almost came to a stop.

By frame 270 the limo was down to just under 12mph. If it had suddenly slowed from 20 to 8mph I could see some folks being confused by that. But the slowing was gradual. 

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

2 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

By frame 270 the limo was down to just under 12mph. If it had suddenly slowed from 20 to 8mph I could see some folks being confused by that. But the slowing was gradual. 

You are ignoring that people are watching the president when the car comes into view.  They are seeing the car come towards them and then leave.  When there is a delta of 12mph in speed, you will notice it.  To them, as the car is moving away, it slows down to what it seemed to them, an almost stop.

 

[Chris Bristow]

1 hour ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

You are ignoring that people are watching the president when the car comes into view.  They are seeing the car come towards them and then leave.  When there is a delta of 12mph in speed, you will notice it.  To them, as the car is moving away, it slows down to what it seemed to them, an almost stop.

 

I'm not ignoring those other Witnesses I'm just specifically talking about the four bike cops  testimony. I understand Witnesses behind or directly in front can't perceive motion as well as those on the side. 

The Z film shows the limo moving at just under 9 mph at frame 314. If it is correct then the Limo  slowed by less than 1 mph to reach  it's slowest speed at 8.3 mph by frame 320.  The deceleration starting in the mid 200s and increasing just after frame 313 is a mostly gradual deceleration. That's what the Z film documents. I don't know how the less than abrupt deceleration we see in the Z film could be mistaken for a stop or extreme slowing by the four bike cops right next to the limo.

[Joe Bauer]

Right when Greer turns his head around and for the second he looks right at JFK, you see the limo at it's slowest speed.

And/or, the second JFK's head explodes...same thing.

Just my unscientific analysis opinion but that looks slower than 8MPH to me.

 

JFK Zapruder Film: All Frames & High Quality

 

 

 

 

17K views5 years ago

 

Kris162

The 1963 Zapruder film, taken by Abraham Zapruder, is derived from the six-foot strip of celluloid contained in the U.S. National ...

Edited December 17, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Chris Bristow]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Right when Greer turns his head around and for the second he looks right at JFK, you see the limo at it's slowest speed.

And/or, the second JFK's head explodes...same thing.

Just my unscientific analysis opinion but that looks slower than 8MPH to me.

 

JFK Zapruder Film: All Frames & High Quality

 

 

 

 

17K views5 years ago

 

Kris162

The 1963 Zapruder film, taken by Abraham Zapruder, is derived from the six-foot strip of celluloid contained in the U.S. National ...

I think the separate frames can still be downloaded at John Costella's JFK site. You can compare frames 315 and 317 which both have similar amounts of blur. Note the distance the limo travels in those two frames. The white trash on the grass goes from over Greer's head to above the crossbar. The limo itself is a good yardstick because we know it is 256 inches long including the rear foot holds. I think it is 248 without the footholds. It is easy to make an accurate measurement of how far the limo moved forward relative to the fixed trash on the ground. The limo traveled 16 to 18 inches from 315 to 317.
 At 8mph the limo advances 7.5 inches per frame so the limo has to doing 8+mph. I find sizing an image of the limo to 248 mm on the screen makes it very easy to measure separate sections of it because 1mm will = 1 inch. Although you need a photo taken from more than 30 feet and perpendicular to the limo to be non distorted. You can do the same thing with the HSCA drawing but here is a link to a good photo.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffordauthority.com%2F2019%2F04%2Fkennedy-presidential-limo-replica-is-on-ebay%2F&psig=AOvVaw2NsEysndIHWKky7NWgia8Q&ust=1671340401357000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA8QjRxqFwoTCKj796ry__sCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAK