Question about the RFK Papers

[Lori Spencer]

A question for the experts here, and lawyers in the current MFF lawsuit: 

Are the RFK Papers that Ethel has been withholding so many years subject to the JFK Records Act, and are they included in the documents this lawsuit is seeking to obtain? 
 

Haven’t seen an update on the status of those important records in 10 years. Supposedly the family and the National Archives have been “working on it” since 2007. 

2012 Boston Globe article on RFK Papers

 

 

 

[Bob Ness]

I would ask the same question about any papers of Jackie's. She has always been the most relevant witness to the entire affair - before, during and after.

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

A question for the experts here, and lawyers in the current MFF lawsuit: 

Are the RFK Papers that Ethel has been withholding so many years subject to the JFK Records Act, and are they included in the documents this lawsuit is seeking to obtain? 
 

Haven’t seen an update on the status of those important records in 10 years. Supposedly the family and the National Archives have been “working on it” since 2007. 

2012 Boston Globe article on RFK Papers

 

 

 

Great question. 

[Joseph Backes]

3 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

A question for the experts here, and lawyers in the current MFF lawsuit: 

Are the RFK Papers that Ethel has been withholding so many years subject to the JFK Records Act, and are they included in the documents this lawsuit is seeking to obtain? 
 

Haven’t seen an update on the status of those important records in 10 years. Supposedly the family and the National Archives have been “working on it” since 2007. 

2012 Boston Globe article on RFK Papers

 

 

 

No, the RFK papers are not subject to the Act. If they were the ARRB would have gotten them in the 1990's. If Larry thinks he can sue to get them he's a fool. 

At best the government would have to do a taking, seize them like an eminent domain kind a deal, similar to what the ARRB did with the Zapruder film.  But that was easier to do because the language of the Act made the Z film an "assassination record" by default.  The RFK records are by no means similar in any way to what Trump did with classified records at Mar-A-Largo. That's a stupid analogy Larry is making.  And in my opinion speaks to the fact that Larry doesn't know what he's taking about. 

The 2012 BG article mentions that the Kennedy family and NARA have a deposit agreement.  It is legally binding.  There is supposedly a 40 page index to the RFK documents but that was never made public, not by the Kennedy family, not by NARA, and not by the BG. The article does describe some of the files in general terms as to subject matter.  

Larry knows nothing about the deposit agreement between the Kennedy family and NARA. He's not going to be able to successfully challenge any part of it. Nor will he get any records from NBC like the Sheridan papers or the Darnell film.  That would entail the government going to court to do what it called a taking, again, like the Z film.  The US government has no appetite for such a legal fight. These are just pipe dreams.  Fodder for Fox News viewers who love a dig at NBC.  

He should confine himself to proving the government is not following its own law regarding the documents in the JFK Records Collection.  There is an abundance of proof of that. If we get anywhere with that it'll be a miracle. 

Joe

[Eddy Bainbridge]

I have just watched a documentary on Youtube concerning the RFK assassination. If one can make the argument that what 'people of interest' did after the JFK assassination is relevant (which seems a very small stretch to me) then some RFK papers may be relevant. The documentary I watch connected George Johannides to the RFK assassination story. I hadn't heard that before.

[Lori Spencer]

@Lawrence Schnapf I presume that the Walter Sheridan papers and the RFK collection are/were both Deed of Gift agreements that could be amended or revoked by the donor at will? 
 

If I understand correctly that’s what Sheridan did before he passed — revoked his gift to the JFKL and then transferred his collection to the private corporate archive at NBC, correct? If so, Deeds of Gift are considered sacred in the world of archivists and are indeed difficult challenges in court cases where the government is being asked to essentially “take” private property. 
 

I assume the RFK Papers are under a similar Deed of Gift agreement w/ JFKA? 
 

And if they are covered by a Deed of Gift, what if Ethel or their kids simply decide to revoke the agreement and sell everything at auction? They were certainly getting a lot of appraisals on the collection several years ago, as mentioned in the article. Is there any way to prevent these documents that should belong to the United States government from falling into private hands? 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Lori Spencer- the Walter Sheridan materials were not a subject of a deed of gift. He simply donated his papers to the JFK Library. he then withdrew them when the ARRB requested them and delivered them to NBC. As I explained on the Carlson show, after NBC refused to turn them over to the ARRB, a subponea was prepared but DOJ declined to serve it. ARRB later sued Sheridan's estate but the lawsuit was closed after the ARRB went out of business.

As far as the RFK materials (which I believe include the documents and tapes he removed from the oval office an hour after the assassination), they also are not subject to a deed of gift. They are stored at the library and remain the property of the RFK Family Trust. ARRB was negotiating for their release at the time it went out of business. The ARRB Final Report recommended following-up with the Trust to release these materials. I am not aware of NARA doing this though I believe certain RFK papers have been added to the Collection.     

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Lori Spencer@Joseph Backes

In the spirit of the holiday, I will not characterize Joe Backes comments about the RFK family trust except to say he is not a lawyer and he is wrong. And yes Joe- RFK took files and tapes from the oval office after the assassination just like Donald Trump did when his presidency ended. 

I suggest others read the ARRB final report for more information about the RFK Family Trust papers. The ARB was negotiating a deposit agreement with the RFK Trust under an arrangement where the ARRB would decline to identify those materials as assassination records. The agreement was not finalized because the arrangement was not finalized at the time the ARRB went out of business

The Walter Sheridan records were identified as assassination records and were not part of the RFK Family Trust. they were his papers donated to the JFK Library.  The ARRB asked the JFK Library to turn them over. To prevent this from happening, Sheridan removed them from the JFK Library and gave them to NBC which has refused to give them to NARA. This is not my interpretation. Judge Tunheim explained this situation at the December 6th MFF press conference.  ARRB sued the Sheridan estate but the lawsuit was closed after the ARRB went out of business.  I am in the process of obtaining these court papers. 

And yes Joe, a court could order that that assassination records be turned over to NARA so long as they are not subject to the section 10 or 11 exemptions. The Sheridan materials do not fall into within the exemptions.  I cannot discuss legal strategy involving the MFF complaint  but can assure you we have a plan.           

[Lori Spencer]

21 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

suggest others read the ARRB final report for more information about the RFK Family Trust papers. The ARB was negotiating a deposit agreement with the RFK Trust under an arrangement where the ARRB would decline to identify those materials as assassination records.

Interesting 🧐. 

 

Thank you so much for answering my questions about the Sheridan papers and the RFK collection. It’s tragic, really, how these critical records have been kept from us all these years. And it seems there just hasn’t been much interest in following up until recently, thanks to you and your team. 
 

What still puzzles me, tho’, is what sort of contract between the donors of these materials and the Archives existed at the time they donated their collections? I worked as a curator in the museum/library field for 15 years and handled tons of accessions. These transactions are always governed by either a Deed of Gift or a Loan Agreement— so I’m trying to figure out if these donations by Sheridan and RFK were gifts or loans. 
 

Loan Agreements can be for a set period of years (often decades) or have no specified termination date — but always with the caveat that the entity who loaned them to the archives can get them back. 

[Joseph McBride]

When I went to the JFK Library in 1984, I asked to see

the papers of Ambassador Kennedy. The person at

the research desk said, "WHO???" I replied, "Ambassador

Joseph P. Kennedy Sr." Then she said, "OH!!! We don't

let people see THOSE!" Since then they have let

some researchers look at some of his papers.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Joseph McBride

[Benjamin Cole]

21 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Lori Spencer@Joseph Backes

In the spirit of the holiday, I will not characterize Joe Backes comments about the RFK family trust except to say he is not a lawyer and he is wrong. And yes Joe- RFK took files and tapes from the oval office after the assassination just like Donald Trump did when his presidency ended. 

I suggest others read the ARRB final report for more information about the RFK Family Trust papers. The ARB was negotiating a deposit agreement with the RFK Trust under an arrangement where the ARRB would decline to identify those materials as assassination records. The agreement was not finalized because the arrangement was not finalized at the time the ARRB went out of business

The Walter Sheridan records were identified as assassination records and were not part of the RFK Family Trust. they were his papers donated to the JFK Library.  The ARRB asked the JFK Library to turn them over. To prevent this from happening, Sheridan removed them from the JFK Library and gave them to NBC which has refused to give them to NARA. This is not my interpretation. Judge Tunheim explained this situation at the December 6th MFF press conference.  ARRB sued the Sheridan estate but the lawsuit was closed after the ARRB went out of business.  I am in the process of obtaining these court papers. 

And yes Joe, a court could order that that assassination records be turned over to NARA so long as they are not subject to the section 10 or 11 exemptions. The Sheridan materials do not fall into within the exemptions.  I cannot discuss legal strategy involving the MFF complaint  but can assure you we have a plan.           

Great work Larry. You have my admiration. On a worrisome note, the old tapes can decay. I hope they can be or have already been digitized. 

[Lori Spencer]

30 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

When I went to the JFK Library in 1984, I asked to see

the papers of Ambassador Kennedy. The person at

the research desk said, "WHO???" I replied, "Ambassador

Joseph P. Kennedy Sr." Then she said, "OH!!! We don't

let people see THOSE!" Since then they have let

some researchers look at some of his papers.

Yep, the JPK papers were closed to researchers for nearly half a century. Only in the last 15 years or so have they allowed some historians access — and only those who are screened/approved by the Kennedy family, such as David Nasaw and family member Amanda Smith. 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Lori Spencer I do not know the specifics of how the Sheridan papers were originally donated to the JFK Library and had been a separate collection within the JFK Library.  I am in the process of obtaining the papers filed in the ARRB lawsuit against the Sheridan estate which was filed in 1997 and is closed. From your background, you are probably aware that individual libraries can use differing types of deeds of gift forms ( I have reviewed and amended the deeds of gifts provided to some researchers planning to donate their papers to libraries to strengthen their rights.).  

Some of the RFK private papers that had been subject to a deposit agreement with the JFK Library were accessioned to NARA as part of the ARRB process. In 1996, the ARRB agreed not to identify certain RFK papers as assassination records and agreed not object to the JFK Library keeping custody of the RFK Cuba-related records, provided that the JFK Library agree to release the records. The JFK Library processed these records as part of the mandatory review declassification process required by the presidential executive order then in effect. 

However, there were other private papers that were in the possession of the library and had been the subject of negotiations with the trustee of the RFK donor committee when ARRB went out of business. See page 93 of chapter 6 of the ARRB Final Report for more detail.    

  

[Lori Spencer]

On 12/26/2022 at 12:26 AM, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Lori Spencer I do not know the specifics of how the Sheridan papers were originally donated to the JFK Library and had been a separate collection within the JFK Library.  I am in the process of obtaining the papers filed in the ARRB lawsuit against the Sheridan estate which was filed in 1997 and is closed. From your background, you are probably aware that individual libraries can use differing types of deeds of gift forms ( I have reviewed and amended the deeds of gifts provided to some researchers planning to donate their papers to libraries to strengthen their rights.).  

Some of the RFK private papers that had been subject to a deposit agreement with the JFK Library were accessioned to NARA as part of the ARRB process. In 1996, the ARRB agreed not to identify certain RFK papers as assassination records and agreed not object to the JFK Library keeping custody of the RFK Cuba-related records, provided that the JFK Library agree to release the records. The JFK Library processed these records as part of the mandatory review declassification process required by the presidential executive order then in effect. 

However, there were other private papers that were in the possession of the library and had been the subject of negotiations with the trustee of the RFK donor committee when ARRB went out of business. See page 93 of chapter 6 of the ARRB Final Report for more detail.    

  

Excellent, thanks so much for explaining this. The question hath vexed me for many years! 

[Bob Ness]

On 12/24/2022 at 7:23 PM, Lawrence Schnapf said:

The ARRB asked the JFK Library to turn them over. To prevent this from happening, Sheridan removed them from the JFK Library and gave them to NBC which has refused to give them to NARA.

@Lori Spencer These may be of interest to you. Lotsa info on Walter Sheridan from the LaRouche magazine Executive Intelligence Review. Not my political cup of tea and I can't vouch for the reporting but worth the read. Borrows from Hougan's book "Spooks" quite heavily. A lot of stuff on Sheridan taking down Garrison.

Quite an interesting read for anyone interested in the JFKA. Seems NBC has a lot to hide and if true, it's no wonder they blither on the way they do. Goes on about Bloomfield and Permindex. A lot of this could be why the Sheridan collection has been shielded by RFK's family and NBC.

 

part 1 https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1981/eirv08n49-19811222/eirv08n49-19811222_052-introducing_nbcs_walter_sheridan.pdf

part 2 https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1981/eirv08n50-19811229/eirv08n50-19811229_058-how_permindexs_walter_sheridan_t.pdf

part 3 https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1982/eirv09n02-19820112/eirv09n02-19820112_055-sheridans_operations_against_tea.pdf

Permindex related:

The Permindex Connection (larouchepub.com)

Edited December 29, 2022 by Bob Ness