David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[James DiEugenio]

4 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

LHO visited the Odios Wednesday night, September 25th, 1963, so it still works within a timeline of him going to MC.

With all due respect Matt, the Commission did not use that date.  They used the 26 or 27. (WR, p. 322)

This creates a problem.  Actually it indicates someone was impersonating Oswald.  But where?

I tend to agree with the earlier date though.

[Benjamin Cole]

On 12/27/2022 at 8:25 AM, Michaleen Kilroy said:

I believe David Atlee Phillips told the HSCA the camera was broken the day LHO walked in the Russian embassy. However, another agency employee later rebutted that notion, saying, “We’re the CIA. We have other cameras.”

Well, yes, on the other hand I have read that people knew where the camera locations were. There is even a picture somewhere of CIA cameramen laughably obvious behind partially open venetian blinds near one of the two embassies. 

Well, we have versions ranging from from LHO going down to MC and seducing Sylvia Duran after a "twist" party, to LHO never setting foot in Mexico. 

I do not know what is true. I suspect the KGB guys met the "real" LHO. 

It could be the KGB guys were paid off the lie. Then Sylvia Duran was paid off, and also the two Aussie women who met LHO on the bus. 

Start about 1:02

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYI4PqtIyE0&t=3832s

Maybe...but I suspect LHO as a CIA asset went to MC, was impersonated while there in part, perhaps even by CIA flunkies checking up that LHO was doing was he was supposed to do. 

Frontline special on LHO, with appearances by the above. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

23 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Ben, watch the 3 part series "On Company Business" it's about the CIA. Phillips is interviewed in it acouple of times and he explicitly mentions Lee Henry Oswald in a manner that I thought implied he wasn't there. On the other hand in Win Scotts manuscript which you can read relevant parts in Jefferson Morley's 'Our Man in Mexico' Win Scott allegedly had the photo in his safe and when he died Angleton showed up to retrieve what was in Scotts safe. The photo supposedly had Oswald in the company of other people. Which would corroborate the Russians that were going to go play volley ball. It may also be the reason for the mystery man photo because Oswald in the company of others would be, problematic to say the least. I think Joe is correct that it doesn't really matter, imo you just have to build two scenarios where Oswald is either at Silvia Odio's or in Mexico. I think one of the most important things about MX City is that it is when JFK's trip is announced and the impersonations of Oswald start again. J.Edgar Hoover is on record while Oswald is in Minsk wondering if Oswald is being impersonated.

A really, really interesting connection IMO is that Skorzeny was living in Madrid Spain and was working with people who put on bull fights. This bullfight connection will show up with Clay Shaw and Oswald's Mexican Mystery Tour. 

Well, who knows, but I suspect LHO did meet the KGB guys, Sylvia Duran and the two Aussie women on the bus. More than that...who knows? 

[James DiEugenio]

Ben:

Please do us all a favor and do not link to anything produced by Gus Russo.

We all know what Gus was up to on that Frontline Special.

And if you do not,  you will soon as I have a long article coming out on good ole Gus and what he did with Frontline.  And later with Jennings and Brokaw.

[Matt Allison]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

With all due respect Matt, the Commission did not use that date.  They used the 26 or 27. (WR, p. 322)

Hmm, well, the WCR says Oswald left New Orleans by bus at 12:20PM on the afternoon of September 25th. I don't believe he left by bus because there is not a single bit of evidence proving that he did.

I believe that around noon he left New Orleans by car with Angel and Leopoldo, arriving in Dallas somewhere around 8 PM, and then visited the Odios shortly thereafter. At some point around this time he also called the Twiford residence looking for Horace Twiford. Then, they drove to Houston so Oswald could catch a bus to Mexico City that left at 2:35 AM early on September 26th.

Silvia Odio's priest Father Machann, also placed the day of the visit as September 25th.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Matt Allison

[James DiEugenio]

Isn't that something.  To this day, no one can figure out for certain how and when Oswald got out of the Crescent CIty and  to Texas. 

Its really something.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ben:

Please do us all a favor and do not link to anything produced by Gus Russo.

We all know what Gus was up to on that Frontline Special.

And if you do not,  you will soon as I have a long article coming out on good ole Gus and what he did with Frontline.  And later with Jennings and Brokaw.

OK, I stand advised, and will happily not favor anything from Russo.

But the KGB guys spoke for themselves. Why did they say they met  real LHO? 

 

[Matt Allison]

5 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But the KGB guys spoke for themselves. Why did they say they met  real LHO? 

Because the possibility exists that post-UUSR, those KGB guys were paid to say that by U.S. intelligence.

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Because the possibility exists that post-UUSR, those KGB guys were paid to say that by U.S. intelligence.

That is a possibility.

Years after the fact, Silvia Duran, Mexican national but Cuban Embassy employee, said the LHO she had met in 1963 was her height (5'3") blond and blue- or green-eyed. But he had attached a photo to his application---a photo of the real LHO. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Oswalds_Visits_to_the_Cuban_and_Soviet_Embassies.html

So was she lying, misremembering--or "getting even" for having been beaten up after the JFKA, and was still a true communist seeking revenge? So she lied and said the LHO she met was not the real LHO. 

I don't know. I am wary of drawing conclusions and then deciding all the evidence and testimony that does not back up my conclusion must have been falsified. 

The Aussie ladies were dissemblers too? Maybe. 

In the end, I think LHO's trip was a biography build, to fit into a future CIA false flag op. 

That's my story and I am sticking with it! 

 

[Gene Kelly]

On 12/27/2022 at 11:32 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Isn't that something.  To this day, no one can figure out for certain how and when Oswald got out of the Crescent CIty and  to Texas. 

Its really something.

Jim:

That 7-day period (from September 25- October 4) is fascinating, and the timeline telling:

1. September 20th: Nagell is arrested on 9/20/63, when LHO was still in New Orleans.
2. September 20th: Ruth visits the Oswalds, and Marina decides to return with Ruth for the birth of the baby
3. September 23rd: Ruth and Marina leave for Irving TX
4. September 25: LHO collects an unemployment check of $33 and leaves New Orleans (ostensibly by bus) where the Mexico City charade begins.  He allegedly takes three separate bus trips: leaving Houston early on the morning of the 26th and arriving in Nuevo Laredo on the Mexican border that afternoon; leaving Nuevo Laredo an hour or so later and arriving in Mexico City on the 27th.
5. September 27: Sylvia Tirado Duran (and her colleagues) spoke to someone calling himself Oswald on September 27. He came/left the Consulate three times that same day, persistent and angry, eventually being kicked out.  The imposter also visited the Soviet embassy the next day  
6. September 27th: Silvia Odio receives a visit in Dallas on Friday September 27th; two individuals along with Oswald, one named "Leopoldo" with an odd forehead (likely Bernardo de Torres) doing the speaking and seeking written letters of recommendation from JURE members. 
7. “Leopoldo” phoned Odio the next day to tell her how “Leon” had talked about the need to murder the President and that Leon” is “kind of nuts”, implicating the patsy. Not surprisingly, CIA did not allow the HSCA to later question de Torres (who later infiltrated Garrison’s investigation) about his activities.
8. On a Saturday morning in late September, two men visit Robert McKeown's house in Houston - Lee Oswald and a friend called Hernandez - willing to pay $10,000 for four rifles, 300 Savage automatics and a telescopic sight.
9. October 4th: Oswald returns to Dallas (after a failed attempt to go to Cuba and/or return to the Soviet Union) with no job, no money
10.  October 14th: Ruth and Marina were having coffee at a neighbor’s house, which leads to Lee's finding work at the Book Depository the next day

And as David Josephs has pointed out, from Sept 24 until Oct 31st, there is not a single FBI report on Lee Oswald.

Gene

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/28/2022 at 3:36 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

So was Duran lying, misremembering--or "getting even" for having been beaten up after the JFKA, and was still a true communist seeking revenge? So she lied and said the LHO she met was not the real LHO.

 

Duran agreed that the person was Lee Harvey Oswald when interrogated. It was only later when she saw a photograph of Oswald that she changed her mind.

As for the visa application, we don't know that Real Oswald's photo was even the one attached to it before it made it's way back to American authorities.

Meanwhile, J. Edgar Hoover said privately that the Oswald character in the Cuban consulate was an imposter. Duran and consulate Azcue both described the Oswald imposter as blond and short. Cuban intelligence said he was an imposter. (Given that they are in the intelligence business, I trust them only for corroboration.) And I think there were two U.S. undercover agents in the consulate who said Oswald was not there. (I trust them only for corroboration.)

 

[Gene Kelly]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Duran agreed that the person was Lee Harvey Oswald when interrogated. It was only later when she saw a photograph of Oswald that she changed her mind.

As for the visa application, we don't know that Real Oswald's photo was even the one attached to it before it made it's way back to American authorities.

Meanwhile, J. Edgar Hoover said privately that the Oswald character in the Cuban consulate was an imposter. Duran and consulate Azcue both described the Oswald imposter as blond and short. Cuban intelligence said he was an imposter. (Given that they are in the intelligence business, I trust them only for corroboration.) And I think there were two U.S. undercover agents in the consulate who said Oswald was not there. (I trust them only for corroboration.)

 

Sandy

I read the HSCA interviews of Duran and Eusebio Azcue. The imposter who visited the Cuban Consulate that Friday was unfriendly, and persistent.  Sylvia described him as over 30, thin (and thin faced) with blue or green eyes, and blonde hair.  

Azcue described him as a white male, between 5'6" and 5'7", over 30 years of age, very thin long face, with straight eyebrows and a cold look in his eyes. He also said the man had blond hair.

Gene

[Sandy Larsen]

32 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Sandy

I read the HSCA interviews of Duran and Eusebio Azcue. The imposter who visited the Cuban Consulate that Friday was unfriendly, and persistent.  Sylvia described him as over 30, thin (and thin faced) with blue or green eyes, and blonde hair.  

Azcue described him as a white male, between 5'6" and 5'7", over 30 years of age, very thin long face, with straight eyebrows and a cold look in his eyes. He also said the man had blond hair.

Gene

 

Gene,

Thanks for the details.

In addition to what you wrote, I'm pretty sure that Duran said (not necessarily under oath) that the imposter was about 3" taller than her. I think  she was 5' 3", and so that would make the imposter 5' 6". Which agrees with Azcue's testimony.

 

[Matt Allison]

On 12/28/2022 at 4:36 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

Silvia Duran, Mexican national but Cuban Embassy employee, said the LHO she had met in 1963 was her height (5'3") blond and blue- or green-eyed.

For a while I thought that might be the fellow on the right in the below photo, but I think he's already been IDd.

The other two are, L: The original MC mystery man, and, Middle: Nikolai Leonov

[Gene Kelly]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Gene,

Thanks for the details.

In addition to what you wrote, I'm pretty sure that Duran said (not necessarily under oath) that the imposter was about 3" taller than her. I think  she was 5' 3", and so that would make the imposter 5' 6". Which agrees with Azcue's testimony.

 

During her HSCA interview, she told Ed Lopez the following:

LOPEZ - For example, let's start at the beginning. Was he tall, short?  TIRADO - Short.
LOPEZ - Short. Could you stand up for a minute, Gary? (Laughter.) Would you say he was as tall as Gary?
TIRADO - Yeah, more or less.
LOPEZ - Would you say he was taller than Gary?  TIRADO - No, I think just the same. He was about my size.
LOPEZ - About your height?  TIRADO - Yeah.
LOPEZ - Okay. And what's your height?   TIRADO - 160. I think 160 or 162.
LOPEZ - Was he skinny?  TIRADO - Yes. Skinny.
LOPEZ - Could you estimate how much he weighed?  TIRADO - About your weight, more or less.  He has stronger shoulders, perhaps, than yours.