Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Matthew Koch]

10 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

Pat did you watch the video? Because you are a serial; not watcher yet commenter.. The circumstances if you watched the video and heard what Chompsky said, they could have gotten rid of their heavy weapons and agreed to not join NATO. Pretty similar to what the US did with Cuba. Crimea doesn't have much to do with what happening, if you were informed past your anecdotal I was bullied by Russian as a kid so Russia bad, take. The Civil War in Donbas IS what this conflict is about. 

Should Ukraine have stood by while he slowly half the country? Ummm.. there like 10+pages of information in this thread if you would like to educate yourself Pat, because that's a rather ignorant take. You left out a Sniper coup de tat of the prior government and and a civil war, both are important for context. Earlier in the thread the prime minister of Israel was posted talking about how your side stopped diplomacy leaving Putin the only option of finishing the fight. 

 

[Guest]

On 2/10/2023 at 7:39 AM, Lori Spencer said:

In just a few months time, we’ve gone from: 

 

“the US DID NOT sabotage the Nordstream pipelines!” 
 

to

 

”so what if we did blow up the damn pipelines? Putin deserved it, and besides, now we are selling our natural gas to Germany at 3x profit!” 
 

Being American means never having to say you’re sorry. 🇺🇸 

The way things are going, some of the democrats here will sound like Curtis Le May or Sen Joe McCarthy before long. 
 

 

 

 

[Guest]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:59 PM, Lance Payette said:

Amen to all of the above, in spades. Hopefully you are also dismayed at the Russian Orthodox Church. My non-Orthodox wife and I were major fans of Orthodox theologian Alexei Osipov until he revealed his true colors as a shameless Kremlin shill.

I for one am not prepared to concede the U.S. and NATO were responsible for bombing the pipeline on the basis of a blog post by a radical 85-year-old journalist who increasingly seems to be losing it and who hasn't named his supposed source. (Roger Stone? No, Tucker would've broken the story if that were true.) His bombshell seems to have received little or no attention in the reputable press. That being said, if the U.S. and NATO were responsible - hallelujah, I didn't think they had the cajones.

Some of the perspectives on here are beyond bizarre. My wife lived in the USSR and Belarus the first 54 years of her life. She still has family and friends throughout Russia and the former USSR. Uniformly, the depth of hatred within the former Soviet republics is difficult to describe - not for racial or ethnic reasons but because they experienced Soviet occupation and know the Russian mind. The depth of hatred of Putin, even among my wife's contacts inside Russia, is profound.

For my wife and her family, first and foremost would be the elimination of Putin and his cronies by any means possible, ideally by internal opposition. They would support Ukraine to its last breath, including by the use of nuclear weapons and NATO troops if necessary. They don't believe Putin would risk all-out war, but if this is the time for a final showdown then so be it.

@W. Niederhut Please take note and have a think. When Lance is on your side of the debate, it may be a good time to take a long hard look at your position and engage your critical thinking. 
 

I’ll reply to your previous comments in due course, In the spirit of our ‘quid pro quo’.  

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Former Israeli Prime Minister says he came close to brokering a deal between Putin and Zelensky in early March of 2022, but western pressure, Boris Johnson prominently, scuttled the deal. You’ve all read the story. Jim D has mentioned this before. What do you think? 
i think Putin is a bad guy. I’m not an apologist, and wish Matt would simply refrain from calling anyone questioning whether the war might have been avoided a Putin apologist. The question I have for all of you is whether you think any deal other than unequivocal withdrawal of Russian troops was worth considering? What is the goal? To win? Regime change? If you want to see a Ukrainian victory what does that look like? Do you support western boots on the ground? High tech aerial weaponry? If the only outcome you will accept is Russian defeat what is your plan for getting there? 

Your question is one I asked months back in another thread, Paul. Nobody replied. The silence was ominous. I would question some of the US citizens mindsets after 80 years of global dominance and a saturation of internal propaganda;  is anything more important than the feeling of ‘winning’ to them? 
 

Ghandi:

“An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind.” 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Well then! My dad was at Polebrook wasting his youth defending exactly the type of action were seeing Putin take right now. He helped feed the people of Berlin when Khruschev decided it was time to starve them. My Grandfather was in the Pacific defending your treasured Colonies. They both lost valuable years of their lives because Europeans are such a mess they absolutely can't stop killing each other. That's been true for centuries. My Uncle volunteered and was with Monty until such time as he shifted over to the USA. All of those men and others paid a dear price for their service keeping Europe from completely slaughtering each other. That cost made it home to the mainland in the form of servicemen with undiagnosed PTSD, which in my view colored their outlook and resulted in among other things, the JFKA.

So excuse me when I hear someone from the UK preach from on high about the evils of US geopolitical brinksmanship because I for one can clearly see that Europe is not capable of controlling themselves. Russia (or the USSR) has engaged in roughly 38 wars or military conflicts since 1800 (PRIO), making the US look like pikers. That's just Russia. Who knows what the other countries, past and present, would add to that total. 

My point is this. There are borders for countries for a reason. We're not talking about disputed land. The Ukranian borders have been established for decades. Crimea is part of the Ukraine. As are the Eastern regions. NATO has stabilized Europe for many decades now. That's a fact. They are a sovereign country. Just like we helped you during WW2 and prior to our entry, NATO is helping Ukraine maintain their sovereignty. Is that clear enough? Simple really.

Putin does not have to do anything to stop the bloodshed. All he has to do is stop shooting. Fact. The Russian people don't have to make any sacrifices. Putin doesn't lose territory or treasure. They don't have to do anything but stop shooting. That is apparently a bridge too far for you and that's sad.

Come up with your own points someday Chris, not other's. I'm glad somebody showed you how to copy and paste a link from some academic in Chicago but maybe you should do your own thinking. I don't run around like an idiot doing research for other people. I'm actually smart and experienced enough to be able to judge for myself with what information is available. I don't need to waste my time listening to someone rationalize and justify abhorrently criminal behavior. It's sick. The cynicism reflex is so strong in you and many of these critics it blinds them to a fairly easy take on what needs to happen to make it better. STOP SHOOTING! DO NOTHING! 

I certainly don't think of the US or NATO of being lilly-white roses and used to be more sympathetic to Putin's situation but once he crossed the line into Crimea that was over. NATO's critics remind me of battered spouses who swear over and over "they're really a nice person" while getting kicked around the block. There are points at which a stand must be made, and invasion is an uncontroversial point (unless you want to get kicked around the block some more).

Once more. In order to maintain some semblance of stability in a nuclear armed world borders must be respected, and a country's sovereignty maintained. The UN is one place differences can be hashed out as well as diplomatic channels. Pulling a gun out and telling someone "Let's negotiate" while pointing it at their head is NOT negotiating. In the international diplomatic world, a "promise" is not a "treaty" and Russia knew it at the time and was well aware a future American President isn't bound by a lick and a kiss.

By breaking their AGREEMENT not to attack Ukraine in exchange for Ukranian transfer of nuclear stockpiles (the Budapest Memorandum -1994) and their explicit agreements as members of the OCC and UN, Russia has broken every agreement they made to assure Ukrainian independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity, LONG BEFORE 2014! Like beginning in 1997. This defense of Putin and Russia at this point is sickening.

Thanks for the reply, Bob. I am just going to summarise your reply so nothing is missed or confused. 

Paragraph 1: 

You’ve explained your family history concerning WW2, which isn’t dissimilar to some others here including my own, so I can relate. However, it might be that my grandfather, great uncles and other relatives involved in the terrible conflict can rest easy in the ground tonight. The reason is that I am a proponent of peace. Do you think your relatives might be just a little ashamed seeing you cheering on the spectre of N-a-z-i-s-m in Europe? In your defence, the Third Reich thought they’d be on the right side of history too.

Paragraph 2: 

You are upset that someone from Britain is pointing out the US tactic of full spectrum dominance, and the immoral decades of corrupt foreign policy. My I point out that in your original unedited post, you seemed to imply that I had a collective responsibility for European wars. Which BTW was completely irrational, absurd thinking. As I was born more than 3 decades after WW2. It did show how you’re willing to stigmatise an entire population for the sins of a few. Which is a very uneducated, flawed rationale. You’ve mentioned Russia’s conflicts since 1800 as if it means anything when most of the worlds affluence and military might was in Europe. Countries were often drawn into battles not of their choosing. In terms of this Ukraine conflict its about as arbitrary as me pointing out that at a similar time the USA was committing the worlds most spectacular genocide of native Americans. Neither comment has any bearing on this conversation. Unless of course your point is that Americans and Europeans both third for war and murder? Its erroneous when it comes to Ukraine. 
 

Paragraph 3: 

Is the most interesting so far, IMO. Its rather precious that you have a sentimentality about national borders, considering you are a proud American. It’s like having the Klu Klux Klan preach about civil rights. The US dominated NATO also did a fine job with maintaining national borders in the Balkans back in the Clinton era. The USA/NATO got the bases it wanted, right? Its fine breaking nations into pieces as long as its pro-US, right? When their was ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, the US/NATO insisted on intervention. When there is ethnic cleansing in Ukraine for 8 years (14,000 people murdered), you’re apathetic, you don’t mind at all. I am seeing a real double standard that exists in your mind here, Bob.
 

Paragraph 4:

This trope is without any thought. You don’t think the young Russian soldiers dying in this conflict is a sacrifice? What planet are you living on? You’re showing zero understanding in regard to the predicament of the people in the Donbas region. You’re ignoring it exists like a bird with its head buried in sand. 
 

Paragraph 5: 

A patronising, emotional trope about me coming up with my own information, as opposed to posting pre-eminant geopolitics expert, John Mearsheimer. It just shows again that you haven’t been reading what I have been saying. I am fortunate that I live in a community of successful financial traders who take a keen interest in geopolitics and history. They predicted almost every step of this conflict, like they had some crystal ball. I had their opinions from the off and a supply of information. Which I guess gave me an unfair edge on yourself. Sorry about that. 🤷‍♂️ 

Paragraph 6:

This interests me, Bob. You concede that NATO and the USA are no innocents in terms of foreign policy and that you had great sympathy with Putin/Russia. That ended for you when Russia occupied Crimea. That seems to be some very selective thinking when it comes to how that came about. It perhaps implies that you’re pro-coup d’etat backed by the CIA, anti-democracy. Or, surely the sense of justice in you would be outraged by what had happened? Hows that moral compass of yours? I don’t think you can put this down to magnetic north switching. I would be careful suggesting you have sympathies for Putin or Russia, as Matt Allison will report you to the moderators.
 

Paragraph 7:

You’re stating the UN’s supposed integral position in mediating and making sure national borders are maintained. Was it on vacation for 20 years of war in the middle East, which raped the resources of many a country? This pulling a gun out section of the paragraph makes me think about the USA extorting the world. How can you possibly be taking this position when the one country people looked up to in the world, the largest empire of our time, has acted like the Cosa Nostra, threatening country after country with assassination, coup’s, invasions and whatever else. It’s shotgun diplomacy. When Russia uses the same tactic, after years of its warnings being unheard in the west, you are up in arms about it. As a citizen of the world, living on different continents, this just seems like a lack of awareness and education. 
 

Paragraph 8: 

Sigh! 
Look at this myopic presentation of reality, Bob. You’re saying Russia broke agreements? Helloooooo! NATO promised not to cross the Elbe River did the exact opposite. 🙈 Why? Because NATO / the USA saw opportunity in Russia being weak and broke. That piece of history where Russia tried democracy under Yeltsin and the oligarchs stole everything to the pleasure of the West, and Russia was defaulting on loans. 
 

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Chris
 

 

 

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

if you can’t at least envision Peace, or long for it, and root against the warmongers on this planet, what the hell are you doing on this Forum? 

⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ 

This is very poignant, Paul. I feel the truth is that virtue signallers just want to appear to be good, to raise their status in the tribe and receive attention.

A person who is actually ‘good’ needs no tribe or party, and has the best interests of humanity at heart, they don't seek attention, or self-aggrandizement, they just deeply desire a better world.
 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

There will be no negotiating with terrorists. Putin is a war criminal already known for not honoring agreements.

We already have experience with people like that; we saw what happened when Chamberlin waved around an "agreement" he got from Hitler.

Putin is the modern-day Hitler. A genocidal war criminal that wants to invade and annex sovereign countries. Those that try to make excuses for his behavior are no different than those that defended Hitler.

[Guest]

On 2/10/2023 at 8:59 PM, Matt Allison said:

There will be no negotiating with terrorists. Putin is a war criminal already known for not honoring agreements.

We already have experience with people like that; we saw what happened when Chamberlin waved around an "agreement" he got from Hitler.

Putin is the modern-day Hitler. A genocidal war criminal that wants to invade and annex sovereign countries. Those that try to make excuses for his behavior are no different than those that defended Hitler.

Look at the hypocrisy and delusion in this post. You sound like you just read George W. Bush’s cue cards. You’ll tell me next that I don’t understand liberty and democracy. 🙂 Again, NATO / The West did not honour its agreements. Can we have one rule for the goose and another for the gander? 🇺🇸 Of course we can, its called ‘full spectrum dominance’. We do what we want and rules are for others to live by. 
 

The USA / CIA has terrorised anyone who doesn’t go along with their program for decades. In the middle East the USA us referred to as “the great satan”. You may wish to look up war crimes and analyse things closer to home.
 

Assasinations ✔️

Torture ✔️

Illegal wars ✔️ 
 

How is Guantanamo Bay doing? 
 

Didn’t JFK say that we can’t hope for democracy to survive at home if we imitate our enemies abroad? 
 

Chamberlain / US Ambassador Joseph P. Kennedy also asked if FDR would take the Jews as part of their immigration quota, as both were convinced that a catastrophe was about to happen. FDR said “it's not our problem.” Chamberlain and JPK certainly made mistakes, however, they weren’t wilful. Are your mistakes wilful? 
 

As for your third paragraph; isn’t that just the gamma/omega male thing. Call anyone Hitler who doesn’t agree with you. The almost comical irony is that you support a military that openly condones and endorses unashamed N-A-Z-I-S in Ukraine that has been happily carrying out 8 years of ethnic cleansing. 
 

You need to break this programming that is impeding your ability to think autonomously, Matt. 

[John Cotter]

On 2/10/2023 at 3:23 PM, Matthew Koch said:

Paul give this a watch, I'm not a fan of Chompsky but he does a good job of explaining the conflict in a fair manner. The whole video is very good and informative in understanding the the conflict. The beginning of the video starts of with Russian Collusion pusher Rachel Maddows war mongering, and moves into 'Western Full Spectrum Dominance' talk with some clips of Chompsky discussing the conflict around 10 minutes in. 

 

Thanks for that, Matthew. Jimmy Dore is a beacon of sanity. 

The one thing that's certain about this poxy proxy war in Ukraine is that Ukraine is being destroyed. But the psychopathic US imperialists don't give a flying f**k about Ukraine - no more than the swamp banshee Nuland gave a f**k about the EU. 

The only thing these vampires give a f**k about is their own privileged positions of power and wealth at the heart of the global US empire. It's a zero-sum game, and Russia's status as a sovereign independent state is intolerable to these megalomaniacs. 

Hence, Russia must be "regime-changed" or otherwise destroyed, and Ukraine is just a means to that end. That's the insane logic of the proxy war in Ukraine, and because it's insane, it's doomed to failure.

 

[Matt Allison]

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."

- Bertrand Russell

[Guest]

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

My point about Nordstream is that it was a source of funding for Putin's genocidal war in Ukraine.

Putin is committing mass murder of civilians in Ukraine with missiles and drones. 

Is it ethical in this situation to establish a blockade on his military resources and funding?

Any economist worth their salt would know that Russia would just turn East to emerging markets that need cheap fuel. You may not be aware but, Putin is selling oil to India and Britain is quietly buying that same oil from India. Surprised? Ideological Boris Johnson’s government chums are buying Russian oil through an intermediary. You can’t even make this stuff up. 
 

I think your question of ethics comes down to the circumstances. In this case you have to ask:

 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Are you naive enough to imagine that I am not familiar with Dr. Strangelove and Cold War history?

As for 2023, is it judicious to allow Putin to successfully engage in nuclear blackmail against Europe-- to simply let the bully have his way?

And I noticed that you didn't comment on Putin's threats to nuke the U.K., other than criticizing Boris Johnson.

William, if I went on your posts in this particular topic of conversation, I’d assume your living room has multi screens with CNN, NBC, and any other MSM news channel on simultaneously. Not forgetting the laptop with RSS feeds for The Guardian, The Atlantic, WAPO, NYT and The Independent. Why would I assume you have time for Dr Strangelove? 
 

Regarding nuclear exchange, in my later comments I have clarified Putin’s position vs the dominant USA / NATO. 
 

Regarding Putin’s threats; I did actually reply sharing my insight/opinion. Its hardly surprising given the circumstances and incredibly poor state of dialogue.  . 

 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Is democracy worth defending?  And at what cost?

Perhaps Biden and the U.S. military should have left that Nordstream issue up to you Europeans.

But we Americans waited too long to intervene against Hitler, and you Europeans paid a high price for our isolationism prior to 1942.

(Incidentally, my father fought with the U.S. 753rd Tank Battalion for the entire duration of U.S. military action against Hitler-- from North Africa to Sicily, Rome, France, and into Germany at the war's end.  Over 70% of his original comrades in his battalion from Fort Hood, Texas were killed in WWII.)

See the comment below regarding democracy. 
 

We agree, Biden shouldn’t have engaged in international terrorism or sabotage in terms of the pipeline. It hasn’t helped the Ukrainian people one bit. It has lined the wallets of some energy giants in the USA. 
 

Regarding Americans waiting too long to enter WW2. See the reasons why further  below. 
 

I know your are proud of your relatives fighting in WW2, they have my respect for what they gave up; my great grandfather lost 1026 of his ship mates in WW1.  
 

 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Is Ukrainian sovereignty and democracy worth defending?  And at what cost, in your opinion?

Ukrainian democracy? Hmmm

You have a CIA backed coup d’etat in 2014, a democratically elected leader removed and replaced by a pro-Western marionette. You have a jewish actor who endorses fascists wearing N A Z I badges. You have a country thats been bought with a flood of US money and arms since 2014. You have a leader who permits and orders ethnic cleansing in the Donbas? Where is this mysterious democracy that needs fighting for? 
 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

I have read that the Russian economy is on the verge of collapse.

I am sure you read that. 🙂 I think if you searched a little harder, you’ll see that view is detached from reality. Its pure propaganda. A bit like the abject nonsense of “Russia is running out of bullets any day” and the following week “Putin is going to take over the whole of Europe.” The media campaign has been loaded with doublethink. 
 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

A better question is, "What happens when bullies get away with bullying people?

How did that work out for Neville Chamberlain after Munich?

You have a world largely controlled by one country, through shotgun-diplomacy. Today they call that the liberal hegemony. 
 

I have replied to Matt A. recently in this thread with my honest thoughts on Neville Chamberlain. 
 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Putin can withdraw from Ukraine.  No one is putting that snake in a corner.

This is geopolitical naivety on your part. You don’t seem to understand the mobilising of military forces on Russia’s borders by NATO countries and its allies, should a full scale conflict manifest itself. Its highly significant, William. Have you ever looked at it all on a map? 

 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

The fall of the West?  Get real.

My grandparents were from Slovenia, and I visited there before the fall of communism in 1990.

Like other former communist countries in Eastern Europe, it is far more prosperous in the EU.

Birth rates have dropped to a rate where  western countries are not replenishing. No culture can survive without replenishing itself. Thats not to mention the social conditioning, shaming of culture, and cultivating a society that believes in nothing but consuming and government. So yeh, ‘get real’. 
 

You want to talk about the EU federalist block? I am quite certain the people of Slovenia will experience some very testing times within the next decade. Have you even looked at the economics of the EU? I live in a place where 1/5 of the population escaped the EU. 
 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Yanukovych was an utterly corrupt Kremlin puppet.

Yulia Timoshenko was a political prisoner.

Zelensky was elected by a plurality of voters.

He's Jewish.  How can his government be considered "National Socialist?"

Meanwhile, Putin's Russian Federation has become a fascist, totalitarian police state in the 21st century.

Putin even has his own Russian version of the Hitler Youth.

He murders journalists and opposition politicians, and his thugs beat up gay rights protesters.

He bombs civilian apartment buildings and playgrounds in Ukraine.

If you're looking for Yahtzees, Putin is your man.

Besides the opinion stuff, are you really not able to understand a situation where a jewish actor directing a country could be fine with vicious N A Z I S doing the fighting? For starters if he politically wanted to hold onto his country he needs votes and support. The Rothschild’s banking dynasty are one of the most famous jewish families on earth. Do you think they give a toss about who they profit from? You’re putting a lot of faith in an actor. The Israeli jews even hired Otto Skorzeny, a prominent N A Z I and friend of Hitler who swore his allegiance until his death.  You suddenly think politicians are ethical and virtuous, William? Thats right, the Washington Post, or the Atlantic vouched for Zelensky’s credibility. FFS man. 
 

 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

False equivalence?  My dad was permanently deaf from fighting the N-a-z-i-e-s in a tank battalion from 1943-45 on your behalf.  You're welcome.

As for NATO, their primary mission in Europe was an outgrowth of Churchill and FDR's Atlantic Charter--to preserve democracy in Europe from Soviet totalitarianism.  And our Marshall Plan helped Western Europe rebuild and prosper after it was destroyed by the N-a-z-i-e-s. 

In contrast, the Soviet Bloc was oppressed and impoverished.

What did the U.S.S.R. (or the Russian Federation) ever do for you guys--after defeating the N-a-z-i Wehrmacht?

You are mislabeling our defense of democracy in Europe as American imperialism.

Your Dad is deaf on my behalf??? What are you smoking? Lets establish some facts: 

- I was born more than 30 years after this period. My father wasn’t even born during this period. 
- The USA was in direct competition with other imperial powers and sat back knowing the fascist threat in Europe, and profited, whilst watching its rivals become increasingly weak. It hid behind a non-aggression pact, and financed the continuation of the conflict, lending Britain money and selling Germany Rockefeller oil through the Vichy French. Do you know when the USA stopped selling Japan oil? 3 days before Pearl Harbour? Japan attacked as they knew without oil, they could not continue the war, they needed PNG. You wanna play righteous over WW2? You let 1000 N A Z I scientists off and gave them freedom in the USA. You allowed people like Prescott Bush and many American interests to continue trading in Germany throughout the war, and even after FDR said it was forbidden (too late), he didn’t prosecute a single American who continued doing so. Its reported that the American Eugenics Society (Population Council, Galton Institute) provided funding for his N A Z I German eugenics counterpart. You need to put down the Hollywood version of history and understand the reality. 
 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

think you're wrong to interpret our defense of Ukrainian sovereignty as an economic agenda.

We're spending billions of our own U.S. taxpayer resources to help Ukraine, just as we did to bail you guys out in WWI and WWII.

Ahhh 

You mean consent was manufactured through media for third party participation in a war, so that tax payers could be fleeced and the fruits of their labour passed to private corporations affiliated with the military industrial complex. Don’t be concerned, zelensky has signed a contract with Blackrock recently to rebuild Ukraine. I am sure it’ll be a pro-bono thing?! 🤑 💵 

Call me cynical, and tell me it’ll be different this time. 
 

 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

As an Orthodox Christian, I am deeply aggrieved by Putin's massacre of both Ukrainians and Russians.

This war has been deeply depressing for me.  But I mainly blame Putin.

You don’t need to be part of some niche religious order to feel upset about war, you just need to be a rational human being. I think we can all agree that this conflict is a catastrophic tragedy, that could have so easily been avoided through dialogue and diplomacy. 
 

The truth is; you guys have been wrong from the start and now you’re playing catchup. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."

- Bertrand Russell

I take it you haven’t read any Bertrand Russell, Matt? I can highly recommend “A history of Western philosophy.” You might be interested to know that though he didn’t start life that way, by the time he matured he was anti-imperialist, and a pacifist. It’s sort of funny that a guy cheerleading conflict and N A Z I S like yourself is quoting a pacifist. Of course we all know that you are in a perpetual state of confusion (cognitive dissonance). 🙂

 

[W. Niederhut]

Chris,

   Thanks for tossing out another one of your peculiar, British word salads.

    We Americans saved you Brits when the Yahtzees were launching V-2 rockets at your cities, and now you think we're the bad guys for helping Ukraine while Putin is launching rockets at their cities, eh?

   Strange logic.

   

[Bob Ness]

17 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris,

   Thanks for tossing out another one of your peculiar, British word salads.

    We Americans saved you Brits when the Yahtzees were launching V-2 rockets at your cities, and now you think we're the bad guys for helping Ukraine while Putin is launching rockets at their cities, eh?

   Strange logic.

   After further review, I have decided to take your father's advice and refrain from conversing with morons.

Pretty much decided this guy is just an A hole with no stable employment. Total clown show.

[Bob Ness]

On 2/10/2023 at 8:28 PM, Chris Barnard said:

Thanks for the reply, Bob. I am just going to summarise your reply so nothing is missed or confused. 

Paragraph 1: 

You’ve explained your family history concerning WW2, which isn’t dissimilar to some others here including my own, so I can relate. However, it might be that my grandfather, great uncles and other relatives involved in the terrible conflict can rest easy in the ground tonight. The reason is that I am a proponent of peace. Do you think your relatives might be just a little ashamed seeing you cheering on the spectre of N-a-z-i-s-m in Europe? In your defence, the Third Reich thought they’d be on the right side of history too.

Paragraph 2: 

You are upset that someone from Britain is pointing out the US tactic of full spectrum dominance, and the immoral decades of corrupt foreign policy. My I point out that in your original unedited post, you seemed to imply that I had a collective responsibility for European wars. Which BTW was completely irrational, absurd thinking. As I was born more than 3 decades after WW2. It did show how you’re willing to stigmatise an entire population for the sins of a few. Which is a very uneducated, flawed rationale. You’ve mentioned Russia’s conflicts since 1800 as if it means anything when most of the worlds affluence and military might was in Europe. Countries were often drawn into battles not of their choosing. In terms of this Ukraine conflict its about as arbitrary as me pointing out that at a similar time the USA was committing the worlds most spectacular genocide of native Americans. Neither comment has any bearing on this conversation. Unless of course your point is that Americans and Europeans both third for war and murder? Its erroneous when it comes to Ukraine. 
 

Paragraph 3: 

Is the most interesting so far, IMO. Its rather precious that you have a sentimentality about national borders, considering you are a proud American. It’s like having the Klu Klux Klan preach about civil rights. The US dominated NATO also did a fine job with maintaining national borders in the Balkans back in the Clinton era. The USA/NATO got the bases it wanted, right? Its fine breaking nations into pieces as long as its pro-US, right? When their was ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, the US/NATO insisted on intervention. When there is ethnic cleansing in Ukraine for 8 years (14,000 people murdered), you’re apathetic, you don’t mind at all. I am seeing a real double standard that exists in your mind here, Bob.
 

Paragraph 4:

This trope is without any thought. You don’t think the young Russian soldiers dying in this conflict is a sacrifice? What planet are you living on? You’re showing zero understanding in regard to the predicament of the people in the Donbas region. You’re ignoring it exists like a bird with its head buried in sand. 
 

Paragraph 5: 

A patronising, emotional trope about me coming up with my own information, as opposed to posting pre-eminant geopolitics expert, John Mearsheimer. It just shows again that you haven’t been reading what I have been saying. I am fortunate that I live in a community of successful financial traders who take a keen interest in geopolitics and history. They predicted almost every step of this conflict, like they had some crystal ball. I had their opinions from the off and a supply of information. Which I guess gave me an unfair edge on yourself. Sorry about that. 🤷‍♂️ 

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This interests me, Bob. You concede that NATO and the USA are no innocents in terms of foreign policy and that you had great sympathy with Putin/Russia. That ended for you when Russia occupied Crimea. That seems to be some very selective thinking when it comes to how that came about. It perhaps implies that you’re pro-coup d’etat backed by the CIA, anti-democracy. Or, surely the sense of justice in you would be outraged by what had happened? Hows that moral compass of yours? I don’t think you can put this down to magnetic north switching. I would be careful suggesting you have sympathies for Putin or Russia, as Matt Allison will report you to the moderators.
 

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You’re stating the UN’s supposed integral position in mediating and making sure national borders are maintained. Was it on vacation for 20 years of war in the middle East, which raped the resources of many a country? This pulling a gun out section of the paragraph makes me think about the USA extorting the world. How can you possibly be taking this position when the one country people looked up to in the world, the largest empire of our time, has acted like the Cosa Nostra, threatening country after country with assassination, coup’s, invasions and whatever else. It’s shotgun diplomacy. When Russia uses the same tactic, after years of its warnings being unheard in the west, you are up in arms about it. As a citizen of the world, living on different continents, this just seems like a lack of awareness and education. 
 

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Sigh! 
Look at this myopic presentation of reality, Bob. You’re saying Russia broke agreements? Helloooooo! NATO promised not to cross the Elbe River did the exact opposite. 🙈 Why? Because NATO / the USA saw opportunity in Russia being weak and broke. That piece of history where Russia tried democracy under Yeltsin and the oligarchs stole everything to the pleasure of the West, and Russia was defaulting on loans. 
 

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Chris
 

 

 

 

Nice try but all of your juvenile ranting doesn't hide the fact that YOU are the one supporting the incineration of innocents in Ukraine and buying off on Russian propaganda about Nasis. Come back someday with an original thought.