Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

It’s a good question W. I guess that means we are at war with Russia. Sorry if I didn’t read every word of Hersh or necessarily believe everything he or any news source says in the fog of war, but did he say the US and NATO together blew up the pipeline? You know, during WW2 we were kind of selective with what we bombed. We didn’t bomb railway lines leading to concentration camps, and I’ve read that we didn’t bomb Standard Oil operations either. This act of sabotage was surely a double edged sword. Did it hurt Russia as much as it hurt European citizens? It surely benefitted western oil and gas companies, but was that part of the equation? 
The problem with war is the FOG. The Propaganda. I won’t read any reports, because I don’t know how much truth they contain. But I am absolutely sure of one thing - this war was preventable. This is not Hitler marching through Europe. I wish we cared more about how we got here. It is very possible to square the circle in this case. Putin sucks at home and abroad, and so does NATO and US Empire. I won’t condone Putin, or whitewash Biden. Way too simplistic. 

Paul,

   We are, certainly, involved in an erstwhile proxy war.  Ukraine cannot defend its sovereignty without U.S. and NATO assistance.

   Contrary to what some confused forum members imagine, I, too, have long been a critic of both the U.S. military industrial complex (since WWII) and the post-WWII Soviet and neo-Soviet military industrial complex.

   I'm, basically, a progressive Social Democrat who opposed the Vietnam War and the U.S. invasion of Iraq (and the phony "War on Terror.")

   I'm also opposed to Putin's invasion of Ukraine and war crimes-- many of which seem calculated to terrorize and demoralize the Ukrainian people.

   My specific question for Chris has to do with the definition of terrorism.

   Is the strategic sabotage of military resources in time of war terrorism?

Edited February 16, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Guest]

5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris,

    Using your logic, do you and Paul Rigby consider the Allied bombing of the Ploesti oil fields during WWII to be an act of "terrorism?"

    Also, how many people were killed in the recent "terrorist" demolition of the Nordstream pipeline?

     Finally, are you and Paul Rigby troubled by Putin's "terrorist" bombings of residential apartment buildings, railroad stations, and playgrounds in Ukraine?

You are presenting a ‘false equivalence’ argument. I’ll explain why.
 

When ‘Operation Tidal Wave’, the attack on the Ploesti oil fields, based in Rumania (Romania) took place, the USA had declared war on the country. The USA did so on June 5th 1942. It was at war with Rumania, as part of the axis. The bombing raid takes place on the 1st August 1943, well after war had been declared.

The USA still hasn’t formally declared that they are at war with Russia, despite some incoherent mumblings of a caretaker in the white house (who frankly fits the 25th amendment criteria perfectly). Please see the process of declaring war in the USA for clarity. Therefore it is an act of international terrorism and sabotage. A further provocation which makes this situation worse.
 

@Paul Brancato makes a solid point in his reply to you which others, including myself have touched upon in this conversation. With this clandestine act of sabotage, you exacerbate the austerity and financial hardship of the pandemic. The act forces Europe’s citizens in many cases to choose between food and heat this winter. It increases the desperation and forces plenty to become state dependant. The cost of energy is outrageous and it will lead to many many deaths across the EU and non-EU member states. This is something that would have been known at the time. What also would have been implicitly understood is; that Russia would turn to the east to sell its cheap energy, which it has done. Whoever made the decision to bomb the pipeline would have been cognizant that this would be the net result. It makes it a heinous act, not one of valour of heroism. It directly benefits the oil/gas cartel and the USA. What did Biden say about the pipeline before it was bombed? 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Paul Rigby said:

 

What does the Nord Stream pipeline gas leak mean for the environment?

 

DW News

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Vm0WpzIsq0&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

@W. Niederhut You might want to a think about all of the consequences caused by the pipeline sabotage. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Chris, seems like you are caught in the same circular logic arguing that I got sick of with Niederhut. Did you know that the Project for a New American Century PNAC (Named after a famous quote by Time Life Owner and Skull and Bonesman Henry Luce, about the 1900's being the American Century) authored a famous document linked to 911, calling for America to defend it's strategic resources abroad. In the document it pontificated that a New "Pearl Harbor" terrorist event could be used as a pretext for building America's forces and using that for "Liberal Intervention" world wide. George W. Bush was elected and he brought alot of these people into the government who were in positions of power to allow/make 911 happen and use Neo Liberal intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq. One of the co founders of this group and new Neo Liberal approach to intervention is Neo Con Robert Kagan, Robert Kagan's wife is Victoria "F the EU" Nuland who was part of putting in the new government after the sniper false flag coup de tat in Kiev. I have posted a bunch of videos of her calling for and celebrating the "False Flag"controlled demolition terrorist attack on the Nord Steam line. Interesting coincidence and connections if you ask me. You know what else is interesting.. the World Trade Center was part of the Centro Mondiale Commericale World Trade Centers and has direct connections to members of the board of Permindex who also connect to Clay Shaw. We will see this group of individuals working with Otto Skorzeny who was QJ/WIN via ZR/RIFLE executive action program. This is the Nomenclature of a world assassination cabal that has connections to NATO leadership/Operation Gladio and the former Axis of National Socialist Germany, Vichy France, and Wall Street Bankers and Oilmen and P2 Lodge. 

So I don't think you have to waste more time with Willam, you've got him defending the same people he wants brought to justice for 911 (Neo Cons) You've won the debate because he can't understand the big picture because anecdotal evidence in his personal life is clouding his  judgement to the point of accusing "Fascist wanna be dictator" Donald Trump of colluding with secret Stalin Communist Vladimir Putin in stealing the 2016 election in return for helping Putin's KBG take over of Europe. Lol 

 

 

Unfortunately, you’re right. There is a lot of pivoting and inconsistency, which really comes across as a clutching of straws. I just wish people would use their critical thinking faculties, instead of just outpouring emotions. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Chris Barnard
Typo

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

This is an open question to all; would any of you like peace between Ukraine and Russia and the fighting to stop?
If so, what concessions would you make to stop the bloodshed and destruction? 

Thanks

@W. Niederhut could you please outline your plan to stop the war/killing and what you would be prepared to concede to achieve that goal? Or, are you comfortable for this to continue escalating? 

[John Cotter]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

 Is the strategic sabotage of military resources in time of war terrorism?

What a disingenuous question!

The gas supply to European homes and industry is a military resource?

Who do you think you're fooling?

[Paul Rigby]

With the intra-elite war within America over Ukraine now gone public, the most obvious and important question arises: how will this bitter struggle be resolved? By what we have witnessed so far - selective revelation, presumably followed by a succession of ever more hair-rising exposes, culminating in a limited, public, political inquiry terminated by backstairs agreement and elite realignment behind a new consensus?

Likely, but by no means certain, for at least three reasons: the ruling faction’s control of mainstream media is now total; Bidenescu is no longer in full control of his temper (or mind), and thus the usual means of correcting the errant course of a typical Democratic machine-pol – bully the bully a la LBJ in 1968 – may well not work; and he is merely a figure-head for a more diverse and deeply entrenched set of forces that might reasonably grouped under the term Neocon. How to deal with this cabal? Will they be picked off individually or collectively?

I was trying to think of a home-grown analogy for the position in which the US elite currently finds itself. The one that springs to mind is the intra-elite war in the British deep state over policy towards Northern Ireland in the mid-1990s. In response to intense US pressure, both direct and through proxies, London sought to change policy and conciliate Washington. The problem was that securicrats in MI5 and the Ulster special branch, the controllers of the apparatus of repression in the province, refused to countenance change. The solution was the Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash of 2 June 1994. Is the war within the US elite going to take a similarly dramatic turn?

[John Cotter]

5 minutes ago, Paul Rigby said:

With the intra-elite war within America over Ukraine now gone public, the most obvious and important question arises: how will this bitter struggle be resolved? By what we have witnessed so far - selective revelation, presumably followed by a succession of ever more hair-rising exposes, culminating in a limited, public, political inquiry terminated by backstairs agreement and elite realignment behind a new consensus?

Likely, but by no means certain, for at least three reasons: the ruling faction’s control of mainstream media is now total; Bidenescu is no longer in full control of his temper (or mind), and thus the usual means of correcting the errant course of a typical Democratic machine-pol – bully the bully a la LBJ in 1968 – may well not work; and he is merely a figure-head for a more diverse and deeply entrenched set of forces that might reasonably grouped under the term Neocon. How to deal with this cabal? Will they be picked off individually or collectively?

I was trying to think of a home-grown analogy for the position in which the US elite currently finds itself. The one that springs to mind is the intra-elite war in the British deep state over policy towards Northern Ireland in the mid-1990s. In response to intense US pressure, both direct and through proxies, London sought to change policy and conciliate Washington. The problem was that securicrats in MI5 and the Ulster special branch, the controllers of the apparatus of repression in the province, refused to countenance change. The solution was the Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash of 2 June 1994. Is the war within the US elite going to take a similarly dramatic turn?

Well said, Paul.

Your observation about the Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash is spot on.

Edited February 16, 2023 by John Cotter

[Paul Rigby]

On 2/15/2023 at 12:14 AM, John Cotter said:

Professor Guido Preparata and others have also gone further back in describing how US and British ruling elites supported the rise of the Nasties in a typical imperialistic divide-and-conquer stratagem to keep Germany and Russia at each others throats. There's an abridged PDF version of Preparata's book, The Incubation of Naz**m, available free on the internet.

Thanks for sharing that article on narcissism. According to the article, only a small minority of the general population are narcissists, but in my experience there is a far bigger percentage of them in the higner echelons of all the institutions, public and private, in our authoritarian shamocracies.

Meanwhile, has Chris been banned for all this time? If he has it is a travesty, in view of the constant transgressions committed with impunity by his opponents.

 

 

A seminal work, here reviewed by David McGregor:

https://guidopreparata.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/McGregorConjuringHitler-2016_07_28-21_21_30-UTC.pdf

A similarly profound work, this time on the causes of World War I, is Gerry Docherty & Jim Macgregor's Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War.

[John Cotter]

35 minutes ago, Paul Rigby said:

A seminal work, here reviewed by David McGregor:

https://guidopreparata.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/McGregorConjuringHitler-2016_07_28-21_21_30-UTC.pdf

A similarly profound work, this time on the causes of World War I, is Gerry Docherty & Jim Macgregor's Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War.

Thank you for those, Paul. I had repeatedly cited Preparata’s work here. There’s an abridged version of his book Incubating Hitler available free on the internet, but I can’t find it now.

The Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash illustrates how murderously Machiavellian western securocrats can be when they so choose. In their delusional Manichean world view, @W. Niederhut and others here seem to believe that such ruthlessness is the sole preserve of the Russians.

In this regard, I would add that in view of political developments in Ireland in recent years, I have come to the conclusion that the Northern Ireland peace process was primarily a Five Eyes/Nato north Atlantic security operation. But that’s perhaps a topic for another day.

Edited February 16, 2023 by John Cotter

[Paul Rigby]

2 hours ago, John Cotter said:

Thank you for those, Paul. I had repeatedly cited Preparata’s work here. There’s an abridged version of his book Incubating Hitler available free on the internet, but I can’t find it now.

The Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash illustrates how murderously Machiavellian western securocrats can be when they so choose. In their delusional Manichean world view, @W. Niederhut and others here seem to believe that such ruthlessness is the sole preserve of the Russians.

In this regard, I would add that in view of political developments in Ireland in recent years, I have come to the conclusion that the Northern Ireland peace process was primarily a Five Eyes/Nato north Atlantic security operation. But that’s perhaps a topic for another day.

John,

I had a brief email exchange with Preparata in July 2008, shortly after reading Conjuring Hitler, on the subject of the Bay of Pigs (I had proposed that it was a self-sabotaged smokescreen for the CIA's much bigger play, the Challe-fronted putsch against de Gaulle). I found him friendly, curious and well-informed. A thorough-going delight, in summary.

And I have sympathy with your take on the NI peace process. The British are the masters of creating patronage networks via the creation of powerless new governing structures, stuffed to the gunnels with biddable mediocrities for whom publicity, pomp & lavish expenses are the highest goals, as the Scots are the latest nation to learn.

Paul

[Matthew Koch]

6 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

Unfortunately, you’re right. There is a lot of pivoting and inconsistency, which really comes as a clutching of straws. I just wish people would use their critical thinking faculties, instead of just outpouring emotions. 

Chris take a wild guess who the Russian Orthodox Church supports in the war? I don't know if you know this, Orthodoxy is divided based on ethnicity and this video will illustrate a microcosm of that. 

 So while the people directly involved in the war can justify it, William and other Americans can't. They are just causing more people to get killed by extending the conflict. In fact people who consider themselves "progressive" used to call this "White Man's Burden" and "Manifest Destiny" or "American Neo Colonial Hemony" etc. So we see people in a contradiction but to me it makes sense because the people in this logic dis continuity happen to believe that Donald Trump colluded with Putin to steal the 2016 election from Hillary Clinton but just couldn't be proven beyond reasonable doubt. These people were duped imo by MSM media (That isn't Tucker Carlson he he) now they can't admit they are wrong because they'd get canceled from their TDS online Mob and be called MAGA supporters like they do with Jimmy Dore and Co like Matt Taibbi and Glen Greenwald. Niederhut is an excellent example of this because when shown contractions in logic to the point of literally apologizing for Neo con war criminals and their Neo Liberal full spectrum waste of tax payer resources. Meanwhile will also maintain and virtue signal the same time that they are a Progressive Democrat and anti Imperialist. I linked Nuland to her husband co founder of PNAC but that's not enough to our "Logictician" it's sowing discord through a banned word on the forum. I guess when you think you're never wrong the other person must have malicious motives.  This is why I put Niederhut on Ignore because when cornered with the contradiction of his own circular logic he chooses to Throw a Hail Mary non sequitur argument back to WWII reminds me of our what our  Grandiose County Lawyer from Arizona does in the same circumstance. 

I think the important way to look at this conflict is through the PNAC Document https://cryptome.org/rad.htm https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=128491&page=1

"At present the United States faces no global rival. America’s grand strategy should aim to preserve and extend this advantageous position as far into the future as possible."

This is what the conflict is about; "Full Spectrum" dominance and America and EU countries not having a global economic  rival. That's why we saw the failed embargo on top of the terrorism. Think about this kind of hypocrisy that Niederhut is exhibiting he is citing bombing targets after an actual World World has been created to justify Terrorism to prevent Germany from not aiding the war effort and escalating the conflict. Causing more people to be killed, that's not very logical is what I assume Spock would tell someone who is citing human life as motivation to counter Putin. That is why non aligned countries are being used as a proxy to drain Russia and keep it from competing on a global scale. Neo Con apologists will support it. America tried this in the 90's with AID International in Russia, they along with corrupt Borris Yeltsin sold the country off to the people (Oligarchs) William complains about and celebrates when they get pushed out of windows (So much for love thy enemy). So we are here IMHO because America keeps trying to destroy Russian hegemony and Putin resists it. That is the pattern of events since the Wall fell. If people could remain consistent and not support American interventionism the world would be a better place, but gotta stick to the Orange man so here we are.. Going in circles.  

[W. Niederhut]

4 hours ago, John Cotter said:

What a disingenuous question!

The gas supply to European homes and industry is a military resource?

Who do you think you're fooling?

The question is the opposite of disingenuous, John, as are all of my posts.

It's an honest question about the definition of the term, "terrorism."

As for Mathew Koch and Chris Barnard's comments about my alleged "inconsistency," I'll refer them back to my criticism of the U.S. military industrial complex during the past half century (including an editorial I wrote for my school newspaper 50 years ago condemning Nixon's bombing of Cambodia.)

Hopefully, Mathew and Chris will eventually figure that out.

(I'm not holding my breath.)

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

Where’ve we go in this discussion, it would be helpful in my view to make clear that while discussing the wider issues of the war, and historical antecedents, we are not trying to absolve Putin of crimes against Ukraine. My focus on all of this is that this war should not be happening at all, and that the consequences are deadly for so many, though not for us Americans. It’s like Jesus said - not a quote - look to the moat in your own eye. Be free of blame before you blame others. 

[John Cotter]

7 hours ago, Paul Rigby said:

John,

I had a brief email exchange with Preparata in July 2008, shortly after reading Conjuring Hitler, on the subject of the Bay of Pigs (I had proposed that it was a self-sabotaged smokescreen for the CIA's much bigger play, the Challe-fronted putsch against de Gaulle). I found him friendly, curious and well-informed. A thorough-going delight, in summary.

And I have sympathy with your take on the NI peace process. The British are the masters of creating patronage networks via the creation of powerless new governing structures, stuffed to the gunnels with biddable mediocrities for whom publicity, pomp & lavish expenses are the highest goals, as the Scots are the latest nation to learn.

Paul

Paul,

Amen to that. The political leaders in our western so-called democracies are controlled from the shadows rather than by the people.

This is illustrated by how the Northern Ireland peace process has been used to subvert democracy in Ireland. The Irish police force, the Gárdai, and its overseeing body, the Policing Authority, have been effectively taken over by personnel from Northern Ireland with MI5 connections.

The most obvious such individual is Drew Harris, who was appointed as Gárda Commissioner, the most senior position in the Gárdai, in 2018.

https://eirigi.org/latestnews/2020/2/28/drew-harris-cannot-continue-as-garda-commissioner

The men who sacrificed their lives for Irish freedom a hundred years ago must be spinning in their graves.

The most extraordinary aspect of  this situation is that Sinn Féin, the erstwhile political wing of the IRA and now the single biggest political party in both northern and southern Ireland, has said or done nothing about this. One can only conclude that Sinn Féin/IRA were bought off  in the peace process and have stayed bought.