Texas Theater: Fill in the blank!

[David Von Pein]

4 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Brewer did not see anyone run into the TT.  Physically impossible.

So you do want to call Brewer a li@r.

(Why am I not surprised in the slightest?)

Edited February 5, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

11 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So you do want to call Brewer a li@r.

(Why am I not surprised in the slightest?)

Who were the two men in his shoe shop, from IBM that he left in charge of it that closed it down for him?

[Greg Doudna]

Lance (going back to your opening post), agree it is fact that Lee had a revolver and that Lee threw the first punch at officer McDonald. I think the issue of the drawing of the gun and attempting to fire it at an officer is very much disputable. In one interview or video recorded talk of McDonald I have seen (tried to find it just now, can't find it but it was McDonald in a later year telling his story), McDonald--this is McDonald's own description--says as he wrenched the revolver out of Oswald's hand he had the revolver pointed at Oswald and was tempted to shoot and kill Oswald. McDonald said he had opportunity to do so, for a split second considered it, but didn't because he was afraid of injuring the police officer behind Oswald if he did. As McDonald told it it was his concern for his fellow officer that was the reason he didn't do a Jack Ruby right then and there on Oswald. I'm not saying I take that story to the bank. Officers tend to embellish their war stories in later years. But I think it is not at all clear that Oswald intended or attempted murder of a police officer in that scuffle. 

But to go to the punch, stipulate uncontested. Oswald so noticeable for coolness under duress even by interrogating officers ... how could he be so stupid? So self-defeating? You suggest suicide by cop.

 According to Fritz Oswald admitted that punch, but claimed that was the only thing he had done wrong or illegal.

Mr. FRITZ. He denied it [shooting Tippit]--that he did not. The only thing he said he had done wrong, 'The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it.' He said, 'That is the only law I violated.' He said, 'That is the only thing I have done wrong.'

OK, you ask a fair question and I will offer this that would be consistent with a defense argument if a defense argument was otherwise substantial: McDonald reached for Oswald's gun in his waist to take it from him, Oswald was spooked, instinctively reacted/punched (not too bright).

Ironically, the very allegations (credible) that Oswald would at times slap around Marina from jealousy or their arguments could actually support this explanation, in making a basic case that Oswald, normally controlled, had impulse-anger issues and acted impulsively. To put it more simply, he was a "hitter" when provoked. Not too bright to do that to a police officer, but could be the full-stop sufficient explanation for why. Didn't Oswald get put in the brig in the Marines once for throwing a punch at an officer? That's not too bright either. Maybe that is what was going on here. By this interpretation, not necessarily from consciousness of guilt in the Tippit or JFK killings. Just Oswald behaving as Oswald.

On your other question on why he would leave the TSBD evasively and go get a gun before going to the theatre, while that agrees well with the narrative you give on the prior assumption of a compelling case that he shot JFK, that is not the only possibility if you do not start from that prior premise (that LHO shot JFK). There are all sorts of examples and reasons for innocent persons running evasively after crimes other than that they did that crime. The alternative explanation compatible with a different starting point that other evidence indicates or is compatible with innocence (e.g. framed on JFK by means of the rifle as per Pat Speer and Flip DeMay; mistakenly accused in the case of Tippit) could be (a) he was fleeing those who killed Kennedy, mob or gangland types, believed his life in danger, a terrified fleeing endangered witness so to speak; and (b) got his revolver because scared and for self-defense. So that would be what I would see as a reasonable filling in the two blanks of your question from a defense point of view.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[David Von Pein]

24 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Who were the two men in his shoe shop, from IBM that he left in charge of it that closed it down for him?

That's a very weak and pathetic dodge there.

-------------

JOHNNY BREWER & THE MURDER OF OFFICER TIPPIT:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1317.html

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Lance Payette writes:

Quote

No one ever suggested the event didn't happen substantially as described [in the Warren Report].

At the absolute bare minimum, Oswald went home and got his gun, disappeared into the Texas Theater, and violently resisted arrest when confronted by officers.

Here's an alternative to Lance's "absolute bare minimum" assumption:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2679-sorry-lance-but-you-re-getting-another-dose-just-because#41340

[John Cotter]

17 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Lance Payette writes:

Here's an alternative to Lance's "absolute bare minimum" assumption:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2679-sorry-lance-but-you-re-getting-another-dose-just-because#41340

That's a quite devastating rebuttal by Greg Parker of Lance Payette's arguments.

[Joe Bauer]

If only Oswald had just paid to go into the Texas theater and even stopped to get a box of popcorn on the way in...just imagine, no one may have called the cops on him.

 

 

[Steve Roe]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:02 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Who were the two men in his shoe shop, from IBM that he left in charge of it that closed it down for him?

I can tell you who these "IBM" men were, but first where are you getting this info about sinister IBM guys? 

I'm not saying you believe it, but rather where did this information come from? 

I'm trying to pinpoint the source of this IBM mystery men. 

[Ron Ege]

6 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

I can tell you who these "IBM" men were, but first where are you getting this info about sinister IBM guys? 

I'm not saying you believe it, but rather where did this information come from? 

I'm trying to pinpoint the source of this IBM mystery men. 

Steve, thanks.

Maybe here?:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&search=two_men+from+IBM+JCB

See Page 5, last column, about half-way down.

Johnny Brewer: " . . . "There two other men in there (the shoe store where Johnny Brewer worked).  They were from IBM - they were in the neighborhood.  I had known them ever since I came there."

And 

Ian Griggs: "Customers?"

Johnny Brewer: "No, they weren't customers.  They just come in and kill time and lounge around . . ."

Edited February 7, 2023 by Ron Ege

[Guest]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:10 PM, Greg Doudna said:

Lance (going back to your opening post), agree it is fact that Lee had a revolver and that Lee threw the first punch at officer McDonald. I think the issue of the drawing of the gun and attempting to fire it at an officer is very much disputable. In one interview or video recorded talk of McDonald I have seen (tried to find it just now, can't find it but it was McDonald in a later year telling his story), McDonald--this is McDonald's own description--says as he wrenched the revolver out of Oswald's hand he had the revolver pointed at Oswald and was tempted to shoot and kill Oswald. McDonald said he had opportunity to do so, for a split second considered it, but didn't because he was afraid of injuring the police officer behind Oswald if he did. As McDonald told it it was his concern for his fellow officer that was the reason he didn't do a Jack Ruby right then and there on Oswald. I'm not saying I take that story to the bank. Officers tend to embellish their war stories in later years. But I think it is not at all clear that Oswald intended or attempted murder of a police officer in that scuffle. 

But to go to the punch, stipulate uncontested. Oswald so noticeable for coolness under duress even by interrogating officers ... how could he be so stupid? So self-defeating? You suggest suicide by cop.

 According to Fritz Oswald admitted that punch, but claimed that was the only thing he had done wrong or illegal.

Mr. FRITZ. He denied it [shooting Tippit]--that he did not. The only thing he said he had done wrong, 'The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it.' He said, 'That is the only law I violated.' He said, 'That is the only thing I have done wrong.'

OK, you ask a fair question and I will offer this that would be consistent with a defense argument if a defense argument was otherwise substantial: McDonald reached for Oswald's gun in his waist to take it from him, Oswald was spooked, instinctively reacted/punched (not too bright).

Ironically, the very allegations (credible) that Oswald would at times slap around Marina from jealousy or their arguments could actually support this explanation, in making a basic case that Oswald, normally controlled, had impulse-anger issues and acted impulsively. To put it more simply, he was a "hitter" when provoked. Not too bright to do that to a police officer, but could be the full-stop sufficient explanation for why. Didn't Oswald get put in the brig in the Marines once for throwing a punch at an officer? That's not too bright either. Maybe that is what was going on here. By this interpretation, not necessarily from consciousness of guilt in the Tippit or JFK killings. Just Oswald behaving as Oswald.

On your other question on why he would leave the TSBD evasively and go get a gun before going to the theatre, while that agrees well with the narrative you give on the prior assumption of a compelling case that he shot JFK, that is not the only possibility if you do not start from that prior premise (that LHO shot JFK). There are all sorts of examples and reasons for innocent persons running evasively after crimes other than that they did that crime. The alternative explanation compatible with a different starting point that other evidence indicates or is compatible with innocence (e.g. framed on JFK by means of the rifle as per Pat Speer and Flip DeMay; mistakenly accused in the case of Tippit) could be (a) he was fleeing those who killed Kennedy, mob or gangland types, believed his life in danger, a terrified fleeing endangered witness so to speak; and (b) got his revolver because scared and for self-defense. So that would be what I would see as a reasonable filling in the two blanks of your question from a defense point of view.

On 2/5/2023 at 3:58 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Lance Payette writes:

Here's an alternative to Lance's "absolute bare minimum" assumption:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2679-sorry-lance-but-you-re-getting-another-dose-just-because#41340

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Ron Ege]

7 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

I can tell you who these "IBM" men were, but first where are you getting this info about sinister IBM guys? 

I'm not saying you believe it, but rather where did this information come from? 

I'm trying to pinpoint the source of this IBM mystery men. 

More on Brewer's "friends":

http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc forum/www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13316841-brewer-s-ibm-friends.html

Any validity to them being Igor Vaganov and/or Richard Radalat/Radelet?  Dunno.

Anyone?

[Ron Bulman]

8 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

I can tell you who these "IBM" men were, but first where are you getting this info about sinister IBM guys? 

I'm not saying you believe it, but rather where did this information come from? 

I'm trying to pinpoint the source of this IBM mystery men. 

How about straight from the horses mouth, so to speak?

From page 55 of Ian Griggs book No Case to Answer.

On Monday25th November 1996, as a result of my friend the late Mike Blackwell acting as the middleman, I had the opportunity to meet and interview Johnny Calvin Brewer.  The 45 minute interview was held at brewer's house in Austin, Texas.  American researchers Mike Blackwell, Richard Bartholomew and Mark Rowe were also present.  Brewer had no objection to the interview being recorded on audio-tape.

Pg. 56.  IG-How long had you been there-doing that job?  JB- Probably since August of '62.*

Pg. 58.  IG-Now we're obviously leading up to your view of this man acting strangely.  When this happened, John, were you in the shop by yourself?  JB-There were two other men in there.  They were from IBM - they were in the neighborhood.  I had known them ever since I came there.*  IG-Customers?  JB-No, they weren't customers.  They'd just come in and kill time and lounge around. 

Pg. 60.  IG-Okay, from your vantage point you could see that he went in without buying a ticket?  JB-Well, you could see the cashier's booth which was out on the sidewalk.**(No, you could not!)  I didn't really know for sure whether he bought a ticket or not.  I saw him walk in and that's when I went back and - I CAN'T REMEMBER EITHER OF THEIR NAMES - but one of them closed up for me while I was gone.  When I came back the store was locked.  I said I'm going to check.  IG-You got a feeling all was not right?  JB-Right.  So they stayed there and I walked up.

I'm not sure about sinister.  But suspicious?  Maybe.  More questions should have been asked at the time and by Ian at the end of the interview.

*JB had known the IBM men "since he came there".  I.E., over a year, 15 months, a year and a quarter.  They were in the neighborhood, killing time, lounging around.  Regularly over a year and a quarter?  In a shoe shop?  They locked up for him?  But he randomly interjects, I can't remember either of there names???

** More later on that.

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

**  Brewer could not have seen Lee or Harvey enter the TT from the Hardy shoe store sidewalk with any clarity.  He was close to a block away.  At least 3-4 stores away, one being a large furniture store.  The entrance to the TT is recessed, as is the ticket booth, not out on the sidewalk as he said.  It can be seen clearly on the internet today.  Google maps street view shows the perspective well.  The Hardy Shoe store is now a barbershop with bars in front of the windows.  Look for yourself. 

 

 

219 Jefferson Blvd - Google Maps

Edited February 9, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Bill Brown]

6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

**  Brewer could not have seen Oswald or Harvey enter the TT from the Hardy shoe store sidewalk with any clarity.  He was close to a block away.  At least 3-4 stores away, one being a large furniture store.  The entrance to the TT is recessed, as is the ticket booth, not out on the sidewalk as he said.  It can be seen clearly on the internet today.  Google maps street view shows the perspective well.  The Hardy Shoe store is now a barbershop with bars in front of the windows.  Look for yourself. 

 

 

219 Jefferson Blvd - Google Maps

 

And you really believe that is where the ticket booth was located on the day of the assassination?

 

[Bill Brown]