Moments Leading to Oswald's Deserved Death

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

Please take a moment to say what I was wrong about... and be precise.

 

For one, you were wrong when you implied that your opponents here could only have gotten what Ruby said from a conspiracy book. Fact is, Ruby himself testified that that is what he said.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

No.  The person who was regurgitating specious arguments was you when you said that Ruby corrected Wade with “That's 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee,' Henry.”

 

LOL, I believe this is what Gene was referring to when he said you use "specious" arguments.

Those aren't the exact words that came out of Ruby's mouth, and therefore Gene's argument fails? I don't think so, Bill.

 

[Bill Brown]

34 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

For one, you were wrong when you implied that your opponents here could only have gotten what Ruby said from a conspiracy book. Fact is, Ruby himself testified that that is what he said.

 

 

No.  Ruby himself certainly did not testify that (below) is what he said to Wade.  You have a difficult time with reading comprehension.

 

I'm perfectly aware of Jack Ruby's testimony.

 

Ruby himself did not say that he said this to Wade:  “That's 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee,' Henry.”

 

[Bill Brown]

28 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

LOL, I believe this is what Gene was referring to when he said you use "specious" arguments.

Those aren't the exact words that came out of Ruby's mouth, and therefore Gene's argument fails? I don't think so, Bill.

 

 

Gene's argument fails because Ruby isn't the only person who corrected Wade.  Gene's argument fails because he basically implied that Ruby was the only person who corrected Wade.  Gene's argument fails because many voices can be heard correcting Wade and none of them said what Gene claimed, which he (Gene)undoubtedly got from some goofy conspiracy book and/or author.

 

This is getting dragged out because you guys won't quit.  All I really did was correct Gene by informing him that there is film footage of the moment and none of the voices called Wade by his first name.  That's really all this had to be.

 

Gene: Ruby said "That's Fair Play For Cuba Committee, Henry"

Bill:  Ruby didn't use Wade's first name when he (Ruby) corrected Wade and many voices can be heard correcting Wade, not just one.

 

That should have been the end of it.  Period.  Move on.

 

 

[Gene Kelly]

5 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Those articles by Bleau are great, especially Part I - but unless NBC’s Frank McGee made a mistake, it seems like someone in the DPD did leak information about the FPCC. In DVP’s link, McGee states:

”We do know that he has been identified by police in Dallas as chairman of an organization known as Fair Play for Cuba Committee” 

That seems pretty unambiguous, but the use of the word “chairman” is interesting. Could WDSU have sent out biographical info on the AP wire service that McGee thought came from the DPD? I have no idea.

This isn’t really a critical issue, I’d just never heard of the DPD mentioning the FPCC that early so I got curious. I’d also like to know a  source for the earliest press reports mentioning Oswald in New Orleans. 

Tom

Much of what I've learned about Ruby's behavior that Friday night is from Warren Commission exhibits. The excerpts below are from Commission Report Chapter 6 (page 342):

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-6.html

Oswald was taken from the room after a brief appearance, and Ruby remained to hear reporters question District Attorney Wade. During the press conference, Wade stated that Oswald would probably be moved to the county jail at the beginning of the next week.935 In answer to one question, Wade said that Oswald belonged to the "Free Cuba Committee." A few reporters spoke up correcting Wade and among the voices was that of Jack Ruby.936

Ruby appears to be steering Henry Wade towards KLIF Radio, and Gordon McLendon's sources:

Ruby later followed the district attorney out of the press conference, walked up to him and, according to Wade, said "Hi Henry ... Don't you know me? ... I am Jack Ruby, I run the Vegas Club. ..." 937 After talking with Johnston, he gave another card to Icarus M. Pappas, a reporter for New York radio station WNEW.939  Observing Pappas holding a telephone line open and attempting to get the attention of District Attorney Wade, Ruby directed Wade to Pappas, who proceeded to interview the district attorney.942 Ruby then called KLIF a second time and offered to secure an interview with Wade; he next summoned Wade to his phone, whereupon KLIF recorded a telephone interview with the district attorney.943 A few minutes later, Ruby encountered Russ Knight, a reporter from KLIF who had left the station for the police department at the beginning of Ruby's second telephone call. Ruby directed Knight to Wade and waited a short distance away while the reporter conducted another interview with the district attorney.

One last point - that bears upon what's being debated (i.e., that it was common knowledge about Oswald's FPCC affiliation) - is why would the reporters question Wade about Oswald's connections, if they already knew?  And why would Wade not know the difference between "Free Cuba" and "Fair Play for Cuba"?  

Gene

[Gene Kelly]

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yeah I know.

But I wasn't debating him, I was correcting him. Chuck Schwartz posted a link to testimony proving Bill wrong. And I didn't see anybody picking up on that... so I did.

 

Sandy

FWIW, Ruby was interviewed on Sunday, June 7, 1964, at the Dallas County Jail by WC members Earl Warren and Gerald Ford; WC counselors Arlen Spector, Joseph Ball and J. Lee Rankin; and in the presence of his attorney Joe Tonahill, Texas special counsel Leon Jaworski, Jim Bowie (ADA), Elmer Moore (SS), and Sherriff Decker.  Chuck's link and Ruby's words are found on page 189 of the Warren Commission Hearings, Volume 5:

And they questioned Henry Wade “What organization did he belong to?” or something.  And if I recall, I think Henry Wade answered “Free Cuba” … and I corrected Henry Wade, because listening to the radio or KLIF, it stood out in my mind that it was Fair Play for Cuba. There was a difference. And so, he said: “Oh yes, Fair Play Cuba”. 

A few things stand out to me, as I think more about this thread.  First, it appears that Ruby was informed about the Oswald FPCC connections not from national news or television, but rather by listening to the radio ... specifically KLIF, owned by Gordon McLendon, who in 1975 formed the Association of Former Intelligence Officers with David Phillips.  Second, how would a nightclub owner know that there was a "difference" between the 'Free Cuba' Committee (formally known as the Citizens Committee for a Free Cuba) founded by Sergio Arcacha Smith for CRC purposes and the FPCC? Also, it was Joe Tonahill who arranged for Dorothy Kilgallen to meet secretly with Ruby during his trial.  Last, if the FPCC connection was widely known by the Friday night Wade press conference, why didn't the reporters asking questions already know about it?

Gene

[Gerry Down]

On 2/21/2023 at 2:20 PM, Tom Gram said:

Thanks David, I was wondering when the FPCC info was first broadcast on TV. According to the reporter, the information on the FPCC actually came from the Dallas Police, not WDSU. 

That makes sense, because the FBI, who of course knew Oswald and had an internal security case file, didn’t even figure out at the Bureau level that Oswald had lived in New Orleans until something ridiculous like 10 p.m. Friday night. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=183

The information coming from the DPD suggests that an officer told reporters about the FPCC membership card. I’m not sure where else that info could have come from by 4:00 p.m.

FBI HQ only found at 10pm on Nov 22nd 1963 that LHO had lived in New Orleans that summer?

That's hardly likely considering Hosty would have told Shanklin that afternoon that Oswald had been in New Orleans, who would have then told FBI HQ. Also, several news corporations knew by 7:30pm that LHO had been in New Orleans and even had copies of his debate recording. 

As Gene Kelly previously posted:

Before 7:30 PM EST, NBC News, New York, was in possession of WDSU recordings of the Butler, Stuckey, Oswald radio debate, and possibly of Oswald, Steele, and possibly a third individual handing out FPCC flyers adjacent to the International Trade Mart (ITM) in August 1963.

The biographical information about Oswald, from the Associated Press library, was collated and disseminated by their wire service sometime after 4PM CST in response to the Dallas Police designating him as the “prime suspect”. That information started to be reported on air shortly before 5 PM CST. Previous to the Dallas Police designation, the only information broadcast other than Oswald’s name and age was that he had been in New Orleans and was connected with the FPCC (offered up by interested parties in that city), and NBC’s scoop that he worked in the TSBD which also came to them directly from the Dallas Police.

[Tom Gram]

9 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

FBI HQ only found at 10pm on Nov 22nd 1963 that LHO had lived in New Orleans that summer?

That's hardly likely considering Hosty would have told Shanklin that afternoon that Oswald had been in New Orleans, who would have then told FBI HQ. Also, several news corporations knew by 7:30pm that LHO had been in New Orleans and even had copies of his debate recording. 

As Gene Kelly previously posted:

Before 7:30 PM EST, NBC News, New York, was in possession of WDSU recordings of the Butler, Stuckey, Oswald radio debate, and possibly of Oswald, Steele, and possibly a third individual handing out FPCC flyers adjacent to the International Trade Mart (ITM) in August 1963.

The biographical information about Oswald, from the Associated Press library, was collated and disseminated by their wire service sometime after 4PM CST in response to the Dallas Police designating him as the “prime suspect”. That information started to be reported on air shortly before 5 PM CST. Previous to the Dallas Police designation, the only information broadcast other than Oswald’s name and age was that he had been in New Orleans and was connected with the FPCC (offered up by interested parties in that city), and NBC’s scoop that he worked in the TSBD which also came to them directly from the Dallas Police.

The FBI obviously knew that Oswald had lived in New Orleans, but the early cables from HQ indicate that they didn’t take any official investigative action into Oswald’s activities there until around 10 p.m. CST.

I think the first teletype from San Antonio to HQ and Dallas regarding Col. Jones at around 4pm mentioned Oswald’s New Orleans arrest, and there might have been an interim follow up to New Orleans from San Antonio, but the first official order from HQ to New Orleans was at 9:21 p.m:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=188

This cable clearly reflects that the Bureau had reviewed their file on Oswald, but for whatever reason they were only interested in tracking down A. J. Hidell. (EDIT: I feel like I’ve seen an earlier cable from around 6:00 p.m. about Hidell too but I can’t find it)  

A little over an hour later, Dallas reported the information received from Harry Holmes on Oswald’s change of address forms, and finally ordered New Orleans to conduct a complete investigation: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=183

The sudden urgency was because the Postal Inspection Service had already figured this all out hours earlier and started an investigation based on a change of address form found in Irving. That form subsequently disappeared. 

I could be wrong, but this seems to reflect a lack of coordination and understanding at the Bureau level about Oswald activities in New Orleans, even though the information was known and available in the FBI’s files. It seems like the reaction was “oh sh**, this guy actually lived there and got arrested promoting Castro and we know about it. What the hell have been doing? The damn Post Office is investigating this angle and we’re not!” 

That’s why I was skeptical about the WDSU information being blasted all over the press as early as 4:00 p.m. I feel like if everyone on the planet was talking about Oswald in New Orleans, the FBI would have started a full investigation a lot sooner.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Gerry Down]

32 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

The FBI obviously knew that Oswald had lived in New Orleans, but the early cables from HQ indicate that they didn’t take any official investigative action into Oswald’s activities there until around 10 p.m. CST.

I think the first teletype from San Antonio to HQ and Dallas regarding Col. Jones at around 4pm mentioned Oswald’s New Orleans arrest, and there might have been an interim follow up to New Orleans from San Antonio, but the first official order from HQ to New Orleans was at 9:21 p.m:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=188

This cable clearly reflects that the Bureau had reviewed their file on Oswald, but for whatever reason they were only interested in tracking down A. J. Hidell. (EDIT: I feel like I’ve seen an earlier cable from around 6:00 p.m. about Hidell too but I can’t find it)  

A little over an hour later, Dallas reported the information received from Harry Holmes on Oswald’s change of address forms, and finally ordered New Orleans to conduct a complete investigation: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=183

The sudden urgency was because the Postal Inspection Service had already figured this all out hours earlier and started an investigation based a change of address form found in Irving. That form subsequently disappeared. 

I could be wrong, but this seems to reflect a lack of coordination and understanding at the Bureau level about Oswald activities in New Orleans, even though the information was known and available and in the FBI’s files. It seems like the reaction was “oh sh**, this guy actually lived there and got arrested promoting Castro and we know about it. What the hell have been doing? The damn Post Office is investigating this angle and we’re not!” 

That’s why I was skeptical about the WDSU information being blasted all over the press as early as 4:00 p.m. I feel like if everyone on the planet was talking about Oswald in New Orleans, the FBI would have started a full investigation a lot sooner.

It's interesting what you say about Hidell. In Hostys book he talks about how he and DeBrueys were going through Oswald's possessions after the assassination and DeBrueys let out a big sigh of relief when he realized that Oswald was Hidell.

What I think was going on in New Orleans was that Oswald was an informant for DeBrueys but Oswald was just playing DeBrueys. In this capacity he was pretending to DeBrueys that Hidell of the FPCC was a real person (remember Oswald did this too to Quigley when arrested in New Orleans, he pretended Hidell was a real person). But I think DeBrueys was smart enough to suspect Oswald was Hidell but he had no evidence. Oswald was playing DeBrueys and DeBrueys was playing along to see where things would lead with this former defector and see what he was up to.

Then when the assassination occured, on Nov 22nd 1963 the FBI did not want to launch an investigation into Oswald in New Orleans in case it would expose the fact that Oswald had been their informant there. But they were still unsure if Hidell of the FPCC was a real person or not (because DeBrueys was never able to establish 100% that summer if Hidell was a real person or not) which could be why their early cables as you say were investigating Hidell in New Orleans rather than Oswald.

Then it looks like when the postal service began investigating Oswald in New Orleans, the FBIs hand was forced and they then had to launch an investigation there on Oswald.

This whole theory is based on the concept that Oswald was playing DeBrueys in New Orleans in the same was he was playing Bringuier of the DRE. Which of course is based on LHO being a genuine Marxist. He was playing the FBI and DRE so that he could brag about this when he went to Cuba.

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

It's interesting what you say about Hidell. In Hostys book he talks about how he and DeBrueys were going through Oswald's possessions after the assassination and DeBrueys let out a big sigh of relief when he realized that Oswald was Hidell.

What I think was going on in New Orleans was that Oswald was an informant for DeBrueys but Oswald was just playing DeBrueys. In this capacity he was pretending to DeBrueys that Hidell of the FPCC was a real person (remember Oswald did this too to Quigley when arrested in New Orleans, he pretended Hidell was a real person). But I think DeBrueys was smart enough to suspect Oswald was Hidell but he had no evidence. Oswald was playing DeBrueys and DeBrueys was playing along to see where things would lead with this former defector and see what he was up to.

Then when the assassination occured, on Nov 22nd 1963 the FBI did not want to launch an investigation into Oswald in New Orleans in case it would expose the fact that Oswald had been their informant there. But they were still unsure if Hidell of the FPCC was a real person or not (because DeBrueys was never able to establish 100% that summer if Hidell was a real person or not) which could be why their early cables as you say were investigating Hidell in New Orleans rather than Oswald.

Then it looks like when the postal service began investigating Oswald in New Orleans, the FBIs hand was forced and they then had to launch an investigation there on Oswald.

This whole theory is based on the concept that Oswald was playing DeBrueys in New Orleans in the same was he was playing Bringuier of the DRE. Which of course is based on LHO being a genuine Marxist. He was playing the FBI and DRE so that he could brag about this when he went to Cuba.

Possible.