MAINSTREAM COOLER - For those who believe mainstream contemporary facts.

[W. Niederhut]

Netanyahu Is Humiliating Biden

May 9, 2024 at 10:59 am EDT By Taegan Goddard 

New Republic: “There is nothing new or unexpected about Benjamin Netanyahu’s arrogance. When President Bill Clinton first met him at the White House in 1996—mere weeks after Netanyahu first took office as Israel’s prime minister—he reportedly seethed to aides, ‘Who the xxxx does he think he is? Who’s the xxxxing superpower here?’ That arrogance subsequently caused rifts with Republican and Democratic presidents alike. Netanyahu, now in his third stint as prime minister, has not changed at all over the last 30 years.”

“And yet, President Biden apparently thought he could influence how the Israeli leader responded to Hamas’s October 7 terrorist attacks. In the ensuing months, as the civilian death toll of Israel’s military campaign in Gaza climbed past 10,000 and then 20,000 and then 30,000, Americans were treated to stories in the press suggesting that although Biden publicly embraced Netanyahu at every opportunity, he was working hard in private to constrain him. This notion stretched credulity, given that Biden was no stranger to Netanyahu’s ways, having served as chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and, as vice president, witnessed Barack Obama’s increasingly frosty relationship with him.”

“But now, given the events of the past few days, we can say with total certainty that this back channel pressure—to the extent it existed—has been a spectacular failure.”

[Douglas Caddy]

 

Netanyahu says Israel will ‘stand alone’ as White House says major Rafah invasion wouldn’t help efforts to defeat Hamas – live (theguardian.com)

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Quote from a New Republic article:

“But now, given the events of the past few days, we can say with total certainty that this back channel [Biden to Netanyahu] pressure—to the extent it existed—has been a spectacular failure.”

 

Failure is a relative term.

35,000 civilian lives are far too many to lose. In that sense, Biden's efforts have been a failure.

However, we have seen that Netanyahu DID in fact do some things to reduce the loss of civilian lives. I have no doubt in my mind that he didn't do those things out of the goodness of his heart. He did them at the bidding of Joe Biden. Because of Joe Biden's strategy of commiserating with Netanyahu.

Civilian lives have indeed been saved because of Biden's strategy. I can't prove it, but I believe that tens of thousands of lives have been save. And I would call that a spectacular success.

If anybody wants to persuade me that Biden's efforts were a spectacular failure, they will first have to convince me that some other plan -- short of an American war against Israel --  would have spectacularly stopped Netanyahu's killing of civilians.

 

[W. Niederhut]

28 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Failure is a relative term.

35,000 civilian lives are far too many to lose. In that sense, Biden's efforts have been a failure.

However, we have seen that Netanyahu DID in fact do some things to reduce the loss of civilian lives. I have no doubt in my mind that he didn't do those things out of the goodness of his heart. He did them at the bidding of Joe Biden. Because of Joe Biden's strategy of commiserating with Netanyahu.

Civilian lives have indeed been saved because of Biden's strategy. I can't prove it, but I believe that tens of thousands of lives have been save. And I would call that a spectacular success.

If anybody wants to persuade me that Biden's efforts were a spectacular failure, they will first have to convince me that some other plan -- short of an American war against Israel --  would have spectacularly stopped Netanyahu's killing of civilians.

 

Sandy,

     The indiscriminate murders of 35,000 civilians in Gaza has been shocking, but so has the utter obliteration of the Gaza strip since October-- 56,000+ demolished residential buildings, including schools, hospitals, universities, and mosques.

     I posted references to the photos and film of the annihilation of Gaza when we first began discussing the bombings a few months ago.  And now 600,000 starving children are trapped in Rafah.

     Under the circumstances, it's difficult to construe Netanyahu's Gaza genocide as anything less than a geopolitical failure of historic proportions.

     As for whether Biden could have prevented the obliteration Gaza, who knows?  At the very least, Biden shouldn't have provided the bombs.  And he should have supported the UN cease-fire resolutions, IMO.

     

Edited May 10 by W. Niederhut

[Sandy Larsen]

45 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

At the very least, Biden shouldn't have provided the bombs.  And he should have supported the UN cease-fire resolutions, IMO.

 

William,

Had Biden done either of those things, the only difference that would have made is that Netanyahu would have invaded all of Gaza as he pleased and done nothing to save civilian lives.

And now Biden would have no bargaining chips left. At least right now there is some hope that Netanyahu will refrain from invading Rafah, and will allow the flow of humanitarian aid, with Biden threatening to cut America's military aid.

That you don't see the obvious is quite astonishing to me. But then, many others seem not to see it either.

[Sandy Larsen]

Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

At least right now there is some hope that Netanyahu will refrain from invading Rafah, and will allow the flow of humanitarian aid, with Biden threatening to cut America's military aid.

 

I predict that if either a large scale invasion of Rafah occurs, or Israel doesn't sufficiently facilitate the flow of humanitarian aid into Rafah, Biden will cut off all military aid.

I don't know what Biden will do after that. But I'm sure he already has a plan in pace.

I'm afraid Biden won't have enough time to save the Gazans from the Israelis. Perhaps the most he can do is pressure Israel into forcing Netanyahu out. After which maybe he can pressure Israel into accepting a two state solution. Which is Biden's ultimate goal.

 

[Douglas Caddy]

 

More than 800 faculty and staff at UCLA call for chancellor’s resignation | Protest | The Guardian

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

William,

Had Biden done either of those things, the only difference that would have made is that Netanyahu would have invaded all of Gaza as he pleased and done nothing to save civilian lives.

And now Biden would have no bargaining chips left. At least right now there is some hope that Netanyahu will refrain from invading Rafah, and will allow the flow of humanitarian aid, with Biden threatening to cut America's military aid.

That you don't see the obvious is quite astonishing to me. But then, many others seem not to see it either.

Sandy,

     What's obvious, to me, is that Biden has been an AIPAC-indoctrinated Zionist for decades-- as Douglas Caddy (and Paul Rigby, on a JFK and Gaza thread) has documented-- and Biden got played by Netanyahu.  It's a historic debacle.

     More recently, Biden has finally realized that Bibi played him for a fool-- as the New Republic author pointed out, (above) and as I have been saying since October.

     I'm not sure what your resistance is to recognizing this painful reality, but I think it may have something to do with a need to maintain an idealized, illusory concept of who Joe Biden is.

    For my part, I first observed Joe Biden in the 1992 Democratic Primary debates, (against Bill Clinton) and I always thought there was something slightly shady about the man.  He's an old-fashioned glad-hander who knows precisely where his bread is buttered (e.g., by AIPAC and the military industrial complex.)    My suspicions about Biden were confirmed when he aggressively sabotaged the release of the JFK Records.

     I voted for Bernie in the 2020 Democratic primary here, and I sincerely believe that the Gaza Genocide would not have happened if Bernie had been POTUS.  He has called for Biden to stop shipping bombs to Bibi for weeks now.

     In fact, Bernie is one of the very few American politicians who has accurately and honestly criticized Netanyahu's right wing Zionist ethnic cleansing ops for the past few months.  

[Ron Bulman]

A political break on the cooler.  For W, Matt, Kirk (who saw him) and Cliff, a musicologist and any others interested.  I'd read many years ago Duane Allman played guitar on Eric Clapton's Layla.  After Dickey Bett's passing I'm reading Midnight Riders by Scott Freeman.

He played on many of the songs on the Layla album.  They bonded instantly when Duane met a hero of his.  From my 1972 Clapton At His Best album, I never notice the notes.  He played on Layla, Little Wing (a tribute to Hendrix, who died a few days after it's recording and never heard it), Why Does Love Got to Got to be so Sad, Key to the Highway, Keep on Growing and arguably Bell Bottom Blues among others.  Clapton told the musicians, we're going to make an album here with two guitarists.  Clapton let him go on Layla, most of the guitar on it is Duane, all of the sweet stuff.  You can hear the difference on much of it but not all if you listen closely.

 

[W. Niederhut]

49 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

A political break on the cooler.  For W, Matt, Kirk (who saw him) and Cliff, a musicologist and any others interested.  I'd read many years ago Duane Allman played guitar on Eric Clapton's Layla.  After Dickey Bett's passing I'm reading Midnight Riders by Scott Freeman.

He played on many of the songs on the Layla album.  They bonded instantly when Duane met a hero of his.  From my 1972 Clapton At His Best album, I never notice the notes.  He played on Layla, Little Wing (a tribute to Hendrix, who died a few days after it's recording and never heard it), Why Does Love Got to Got to be so Sad, Key to the Highway, Keep on Growing and arguably Bell Bottom Blues among others.  Clapton told the musicians, we're going to make an album here with two guitarists.  Clapton let him go on Layla, most of the guitar on it is Duane, all of the sweet stuff.  You can hear the difference on much of it but not all if you listen closely.

 

     Yeah, Ron, Duane Allman played those high slide-guitar, bird-like riffs on Layla.  He could really wail.

    That classic Derek & the Dominoes album has been near and dear to me for the past 50 years-- a vinyl rock & blues education.

    In fact, I've recorded a lot of those songs in my basement studio over the years, and I can still play Bobby Whitlock's piano solo from the end of Layla.  (Oddly, I've been playing the piano part in E Flat for 50 years.  Not sure why.)

    Here's my own studio recording of Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out.

    This great blues song was written back in the 1920s, but I learned it from Derek & the Dominoes.

    I usually play the electric blues with my old Fender Strat but, for some unknown reason, I played the lead guitar part on this recording on my Samick ES-175-- a Korean made facsimile of the famous Gibson ES-175.

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12910685

 

Edited May 10 by W. Niederhut

[Kirk Gallaway]

As I said, Biden couldn't do much in 2023. It was too soon. The Israeli public needed  some time to reflect without fear and the U.S. wasn't politically ready to take a stand against Israel. In 2024. Biden had to lead public opinion. He's been taking his time and many have died and many are now starving.

 

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Civilian lives have indeed been saved because of Biden's strategy. I can't prove it, but I believe that tens of thousands of lives have been save. And I would call that a spectacular success.

Again, but how can 33,000 dead and 1.6 to 2.3 million displaced be considered any kind of example of Biden's restraining force, much less a "spectacular success". To say that is way over the top!

All we can say  is that a showdown was inevitable and  what happens in the future would have been sped  up had Biden acted with more resolve at first , and not just a lot of Israeli "shock and awe" being met with Biden's "awe shucks Bibi , please stop!"

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

I'm not sure what your resistance is to recognizing this painful reality, but I think it may have something to do with a need to maintain an idealized, illusory concept of who Joe Biden is.

It would seem like that W. But the other reason we all share is that job one has for years now been to just ensure that Trump doesn't get re elected. And many will forgive Biden for anything just to make sure he gets re elected.

 

51 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

 For my part, I first observed Joe Biden in the 1992 Democratic Primary debates, (against Bill Clinton) and I always thought there was something slightly shady about the man. 

I agree, I never liked him. I think anyone who watched him in his several campaigns for the  Presidency in the 20th century would get the same rather slimy impression. But as President,  domestically he has the best record of any Democrat in our time. Much better than JFK! No one thought he'd do what he's done!

Sandy: And now Biden would have no bargaining chips left.

Well,  we'll at last find out if we ever had any bargaining chips now.

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

     Yeah, Ron, Duane Allman played those high slide-guitar, bird-like riffs on Layla.  He could really wail.

    That classic Derek & the Dominoes album has been near and dear to me for the past 50 years-- a vinyl rock & blues education.

    In fact, I've recorded a lot of those songs in my basement studio over the years, and I can still play Bobby Whitlock's piano solo from the end of Layla.  (Oddly, I've been playing the piano part in E Flat for 50 years.  Not sure why.)

    Here's my own studio recording of Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out.

    This great blues song was written back in the 1920s, but I learned it from Derek & the Dominoes.

    I usually play the electric blues with my old Fender Strat but, for some unknown reason, I played the lead guitar part on this recording on my Samick ES-175-- a Korean made facsimile of the famous Gibson ES-175.

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12910685

 

Listen to the last part at least, it's so pretty.

 

[Matt Allison]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I'd read many years ago Duane Allman played guitar on Eric Clapton's Layla. 

He sure did, and it is quite something, isn't it? I haven't listened to the album in quite some time but I mentally thought of it the other day when I was contemplating the power of the muse in art. Probably only happened to me once in my life but wow what a great experience. As I'm sure you all already know, George Harrison was Clapton's best friend, and Clapton was in love with George's wife Patti, who was his muse for this album. Great music resulted.

The back half of the song Layla, the long beautiful piano piece, was composed by drummer Jim Gordon, who prior to this band was a very in-demand session player in LA. There are many amazing moments on this song, but one of my favorite is when the guitars come in after the piano has made its solo introduction; you have Duane's slide as well as what I believe is another guitar being run through a Leslie speaker entering the mix and it is sublime.

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Sandy,

     What's obvious, to me, is that Biden has been an AIPAC-indoctrinated Zionist for decades-- as Douglas Caddy (and Paul Rigby, on a JFK and Gaza thread) has documented-- and Biden got played by Netanyahu.  It's a historic debacle.

     More recently, Biden has finally realized that Bibi played him for a fool-- as the New Republic author pointed out, (above) and as I have been saying since October.

     I'm not sure what your resistance is to recognizing this painful reality, but I think it may have something to do with a need to maintain an idealized, illusory concept of who Joe Biden is.

    For my part, I first observed Joe Biden in the 1992 Democratic Primary debates, (against Bill Clinton) and I always thought there was something slightly shady about the man.  He's an old-fashioned glad-hander who knows precisely where his bread is buttered (e.g., by AIPAC and the military industrial complex.)    My suspicions about Biden were confirmed when he aggressively sabotaged the release of the JFK Records.

     I voted for Bernie in the 2020 Democratic primary here, and I sincerely believe that the Gaza Genocide would not have happened if Bernie had been POTUS.  He has called for Biden to stop shipping bombs to Bibi for weeks now.

     In fact, Bernie is one of the very few American politicians who has accurately and honestly criticized Netanyahu's right wing Zionist ethnic cleansing ops for the past few months.  

 

William,

Everything you've said is an emotional response. There is absolutely no logic in it at all, and certainly no strategy.

You don't like Biden and that is part of what triggers your emotional response.

Your (emotional) response to 10/7 would have been to vote Yes to the UN resolutions and to quit shipping weapons months ago. That would make you feel good because you'd at least be doing something that you have the power to do. And you'd be pleased that nothing you did could be construed as aiding Netanyahu in his genocide of Gazan civilians.

Well, I am not like you. None of my important decisions are driven by emotion. I base all my important decisions on what I need to do to maximize my goals. They are often very elaborate plans that require a great deal of study and logical reasoning to formulate. Sometimes I write computer programs to simulate what-if situations to aid me in making decisions.

As an example, without going into detail, I have developed a tax scheme that increases my tax return by several thousand dollars annually. It's 100% legal and I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in America doing it.

I'm very good at formulating strategies and that is the reason I had a career as an R&D engineer.

Now, back to Biden and Bibi.

You are wrong in thinking I have a resistance in seeing this "debacle" that you say you see in Biden's actions. I've long been a critic of the United State's preferential treatment of Israel over the Palestinians. But I certainly took Israel's side on 10/7.

At that time I began formulating what I would do if I were in Biden's shoes. It didn't take long for me to come up with a plan... it's a very simple plan.

Over time I could see that Biden's plan was the same as mine. First, commiserate with Netanyahu so as to gain his ear. Then, try to talk him into doing whatever possible to minimize civilian collateral killings.

I would have abstained from some of the UN voting rather than voting No. But that's a nit.

My big gun would be to threaten to withhold military aid from Israel. I wouldn't use that right away, because once used, the US would lose all leverage.

When it became apparent that the flow of humanitarian aid was being hampered by Israelis, and at the same time Israel was stating its plan to  invade Rafah, I predicted that Biden would threaten to stop the flow of military aid. Because the potential number of lives lost would be so great.

At first all Biden did was threaten to change Israeli policy. But just recently he has indeed threatened to stop the military aid.

Now the ball in in Bibi's court.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Again, but how can 33,000 dead and 1.6 to 2.3 million displaced be considered any kind of example of Biden's restraining force, much less a "spectacular success". To say that is way over the top!

 

It's all relative.

33,000 dead and 1.6 to 2.3 million displaced is a lot better than 133,000 dead and 1.5 to 2.2 million displaced.

Saving 100,000 lives would be a spectacular success.

 

6 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

All we can say  is that a showdown was inevitable and  what happens in the future would have been sped  up had Biden acted with more resolve at first , and not just a lot of Israeli "shock and awe" being met with Biden's "awe shucks Bibi , please stop!"

 

Had Biden stopped military aid to Israel months ago, what would he do now to stop Netanyahu from invading Rafah? Something likely to result in hundreds of thousands of deaths due to the humanitarian crisis.

Biden would have no leverage left now had he done what you and William (and Bernie, etc.) wanted him to do.

 

6 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Sandy: And now Biden would have no bargaining chips left.

Kirk: Well,  we'll at last find out if we ever had any bargaining chips now.

 

True.

But it appears there is indeed leverage in Biden threatening a change in Israeli policy and in halting military aid. I mean, how long has it been since Netanyahu announced Israel would invade Rafah? At least two months!

I found this two-month-old news report of Netanyahu insisting he will invade Rafah:

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/netanyahu-vows-to-invade-rafah-despite-white-house-concerns/

So, so far it appears that Biden's threat is working.