The Attempted Assassination of Charles deGaulle

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

There are some people who believe that some of the same people were involved in both plots.

I, myself, do not believe that to be the case, but there are some who do.

Steve Thomas

Steve, can you spell out the specifics of why you doubt that the OAS was an element of the Dallas plot?

[Leslie Sharp]

10 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

This has nothing to do with the Kennedy assassination - it's a scene from a movie. Please move this discussion to another forum.

Only if one is uninformed, or at the very least ill-informed, can he or she come to the conclusion that attempts on de Gaulle are unrelated to the assassination in Dallas  There is strong evidence, including the behavior of SDECE agent in DC, Philippe de Vosjoli, that the investigations share significant elements both historical and in real time.

 

Hank Albarelli writes in Coup in Dallas ...

Indeed, the well-connected Ilse Luthje played a large part in facilitating Otto’s [Skorzeny] late 1940s affiliation with the French Service d’ Ordre, an organization that was open to the recruitment of former N-azi SS officers as assets, and was also involved in setting up French “stay-behind” teams as part of the storied “Operation Gladio.” A postwar CIA report scrutinizing Ilse noted that “…the Countess maintains operational connections with the Surete^’ [French security forces]. Her headquarters in Paris is at the Cabaret de Lido on the Champs Elysees. She has regular contacts with Pierre Bertaux, the former chief of the Surete^’ in Paris, and Colonel Remy, General de Gaulle’s former G-2.” In fact, Bertaux had allowed Otto and Ilse to live at his residence for a time in 1949. The address was a stone’s throw from French Fascist agents operating under “Group Robert” who were embroiled in Project Jeanne.

            According to author Ralph Ganis, the Skorzenys had been involved with Roger Wybot’s SEMIC, the “Society for the study of Industrial and Commercial Markets” which was essentially a detective agency within his counterintelligence apparatus. By the mid-1950s, Otto had taken great pains to distance Ilse from exposure of her role as an agent for the network. If indeed her expertise was in business, and this organization was an intel operation in service to corporate intrigue around the globe, Otto would have been intent on protecting the long-term value of her position. 

            Both Wybot and Bertaux would become close personally and professionally with the CIA’s James J. Angleton, whose recruitment of a leading member of the French intelligence service, Phillipe de Vosjoli (named in the Lafitte datebook, twice) as a double agent is “one for the records” in the history of US counterintelligence. Referenced in an earlier chapter, it was a disgruntled agent within SEMIC that named Wybot as involved in the jewel heist of the Aga Khan and his Begum outside their villa, Yakymour, located in Le Cannet, Côte d'Azur. Pierre Lafitte is said to be one of the other thieves in that operation, along with notorious Corsican drug runner, Paul Mondoloni, a name that was on his mind well into 1963. 

            That Ilse greased the wheels for Otto here, and that she brazenly recommended murder as a tactic in a top-secret meeting foreshadows her role in years to come.

 

[Leslie Sharp]

@Steve Thomas @Jonathan CohenOn November 21, 1963, the day before the assassination, [Brandy] Brandstetter was in Dallas, Texas, reportedly conducting a seminar for Army intelligence personnel despite that nearly every military intelligence officer in the area was tied up with preparations and activities related to JFK’s visit. Weeks later, Brandy would be involved directly in the world of his friend Philippe de Vosjoli, the former top agent at the SDECE and prized recruit of James Jesus Angleton named in three entries of the Lafitte’s 1963 records. The official storyline is that de Vosjoli suddenly realized that attempts on the life of Charles de Gaulle were somehow related to the assassination in Dallas. His alleged awakening begs the question why Pierre Lafitte might have included his name in the same context as Thomas Davis, his wife Caroline, and the attorney for a film being made in Franco’s Spain, Thomas Proctor, months before the assassination of Kennedy.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Benjamin Cole]

39 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Trump failed to win the popular vote, attempted to corrupt the electoral college vote, and when that didn't work, he incited his quasi-paramilitary adherents — Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Three Percenters — to violently disrupt the peaceful transfer of presidential power. On the way, he advocated that his VP be hanged if he didn't obey his orders.
 

By definition that is an attempted coup — not my view or a simple difference of opinion — but an attempted coup pre and post Jan 6.

 Categorizingg Trump as a victim of presidential regime change is factually incorrect. Comparing his failure to win an election with the violence in Dallas, with Watergate, and with the October Surprise is an inversion of the truth and should be called out on this forum. 

That's your view, and I welcome your input. 

I contend a President can be a bad actor---witness Nixon, or in the eyes of many, Trump---and still be the target of intel-state generated regime-change ops. 

There was, in fact, a try at removing Trump from office not through the election box---the 2019 impeachment, the very same process that Nixon faced. But Nixon (and I am no Nixon fan) resigned first. 

Carter was also voted out of office, in a democratic election (and I am the rare Carter fan---the last honest US President, IMHO). That doesn't negate that intel-state operatives (this time, a weaponized 'Phant party) torpedoed Carter. 

Keep an open mind, as I will towards your presentations.

My arguments are not about the relative merits of the four presidents---they are what the shadow government did to those four presidents. (In fact, endless arguments about the merits of the four presidents should be confined to the proper threads).

The media was largely complicit in all four regime change ops....

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Steve Thomas]

38 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Steve, can you spell out the specifics of why you doubt that the OAS was an element of the Dallas plot?

Leslie,

I didn't  say all of the OAS. I said, some of the same men.

For instance, over the years, I have seen some people suggest that Laszlo Varga was there.

However, Laszlo Varga was tried for the attack at Petit Clamart in January of 1963, was imprisoned in Saint Martin de Re, and would not be released until November of 1967.

http://deltas-collines.org/galerie/QQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Steve Thomas

Edited March 24, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Benjamin Cole]

25 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

@Steve Thomas @Jonathan CohenOn November 21, 1963, the day before the assassination, [Brandy] Brandstetter was in Dallas, Texas, reportedly conducting a seminar for Army intelligence personnel despite that nearly every military intelligence officer in the area was tied up with preparations and activities related to JFK’s visit. Weeks later, Brandy would be involved directly in the world of his friend Philippe de Vosjoli, the former top agent at the SDECE and prized recruit of James Jesus Angleton named in three entries of the Lafitte’s 1963 records. The official storyline is that de Vosjoli suddenly realized that attempts on the life of Charles de Gaulle were somehow related to the assassination in Dallas. His alleged awakening begs the question why Pierre Lafitte might have included his name in the same context as Thomas Davis, his wife Caroline, and the attorney for a film being made in Franco’s Spain, Thomas Proctor, months before the assassination of Kennedy.

LS--

For us amateurs in this topic...what is SDECE?

Very intriguing...

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Leslie,

I didn't  say all of the OAS. I said, some of the same men.

For instance, over the years, I have seen some people suggest that Laszlo Varga was there.

However, Laszlo Varga was tried for the attack at Petit Clamart in January of 1963, was imprisoned in Saint Martin de Re, and would not be released until November of 1967.

http://deltas-collines.org/galerie/QQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Steve Thomas

I'm aware of the contradiction, and I think we discussed Varga and Marton on a separate thread.

Are you familiar with the following? And/or do you have proof that the SAC member lied, or that the referenced document is bogus?
 

About mid-1963, according to a former member of SAC [de Gaulle’s special anti-OAS police], who knew Souetre very well, Souetre did the following in April-May, 1963: 

(a) met [the CIA’s] Howard Hunt and Jean Claude Perez (Chief of ORO) in Madrid (b) went to the Caribbean with Laszlo Varga, Lajos Marton, and [a person with the last name] Buscia; (c) went to New Orleans and met with Carlos Bringuier [datebook entry, April 30: ‘Walker – Souetre in New Orleans’]; (d) went to Dallas and met with General Edwin Walker [confirmed in the datebook]; (e) went to Lake Pontchartrain and helped train anti-Castro Cubans It is known, in any event, that during this period he had many contacts with anti-Castro Cubans. It is also known that he visited Spain in July 1963. . . .

NOTE. Lafitte May 9 entry —

Souetre and Davis in April here [New Orelans].

 

. . . On November 12, 1963, former French army commando and paratrooper Jean Rene Marie Souetre—and two associates, both Hungarians, Laslo Vango [Laszlo Varga] and Lajos LNU [Marton], who had fled their homeland’s failed revolution and come to Spain where they were trained in specialized sabotage and assassination techniques by Souetre at two of Otto Skorzeny’s three training compounds outside of Madrid—landed on a commercial flight from Spain in Mexico City, Mexico. Each man carried several passports issued under various aliases, as well as their actual identities. Along with their passports each man also carried about $1,000 in US currency. 

***

NOTE. Lafitte October 9 entry — 

OSARN--OSARN--OSARN--

OSARN- get Willoughby-Litt- 

plus Souetre, others (Hungarians) [emphasis added]

Lancelot pro.- kill squads Dallas,

 New York –Tampa-(Labadie) -T says 

called Oswald to purpose [propose] - weapons- 

Walker. Davis in N.O. with 

swamp groups Florida (Decker,

Bender, Vickers, K of M)---

 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

LS--

For us amateurs in this topic...what is SDECE?

Very intriguing...

Service de documentation extérieure et de contre-espionnage, French external intelligence agency equivalent to CIA in the US.

Author Dick Russell in 1992 prophetically wrote about CIA Counterintelligence Chief James Jesus Angleton’s deep concerns about Jean Souetre’s June 1963 alleged offer to the CIA of a “list of the Communist penetrations of the French government.” Russell reveals that Angleton was especially concerned after his “only trusted [Soviet] defector, Anatoly Golitsin, had informed [him] in 1963 that the SDECE had been penetrated by a KGB spy ring of some twelve agents.” 

            Continued Russell: “More KGB spies were said to be concealed within the top echelons of several French ministries, and Golitsin claimed that even de Gaulle’s entourage had been penetrated by a senior KGB official. The result of Golistin’s charges was Angleton’s recruitment of the SDECE’s intelligence boss in Washington, Philippe de Vosjoli, to spy on his own embassy and pass along classified information. Sometime in mid-1963, de Vosjoli even allowed Angleton inside the French embassy to perform a personal after hours “black bag job”—purloining French cipher traffic and other data.” 

[Leslie Sharp]

 ' . . . Sometime in mid-1963, SDECE official posted in D.C. Philippe de Vosjoli even allowed Angleton inside the French embassy to perform a personal after hours “black bag job”—purloining French cipher traffic and other data.” 

Is it possible that the withheld batches of assassination related files reveal a history that could damage "national security" e.g., relations with one of our strongest European allies for decades to come?

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

39 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

 ' . . . Sometime in mid-1963, SDECE official posted in D.C. Philippe de Vosjoli even allowed Angleton inside the French embassy to perform a personal after hours “black bag job”—purloining French cipher traffic and other data.” 

Is it possible that the withheld batches of assassination related files reveal a history that could damage "national security" e.g., relations with one of our strongest European allies for decades to come?

 

 

LS--

Fascinating insights. 

I can't imagine anything in the JFK files could damage national security or relations with European allies that much, and even it it did, the truth should come out. Let the chips fall where they may. 

 

BTW, the NSA spied on Merkel and others for decades, and this was recently.

U.S. spy agency tapped German chancellery for decades

https://www.reuters.com › article › us-germany-usa-sp...

 

 

Jul 9, 2015 — The U.S. National Security Agency tapped phone calls involving German Chancellor Angela Merkel and her closest advisers for years and spied ...

 

---30---

 

The Germans got over it.

 

60-year-old events and cables, etc? Open them up, yesterday. 

 

But think about that: The NSA, the deep state, was willing to flout any number of laws, agreements and regulations to bring the correct people into power, globally. Even in Europe, and even to the present day. 

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

LS--

Fascinating insights. 

I can't imagine anything in the JFK files could damage national security or relations with European allies that much, and even it it did, the truth should come out. Let the chips fall where they may. 

 

BTW, the NSA spied on Merkel and others for decades, and this was recently.

U.S. spy agency tapped German chancellery for decades

https://www.reuters.com › article › us-germany-usa-sp...

 

 

Jul 9, 2015 — The U.S. National Security Agency tapped phone calls involving German Chancellor Angela Merkel and her closest advisers for years and spied ...

 

---30---

 

The Germans got over it.

 

60-year-old events and cables, etc? Open them up, yesterday. 

 

But think about that: The NSA, the deep state, was willing to flout any number of laws, agreements and regulations to bring the correct people into power, globally. Even in Europe, and even to the present day. 

And if elements within the German government, or the French government, or NATO writ large were privy to the plot beforehand?

Were you aware that senior leadership of the Bundeswehr who had also held key positions in NATO from its infancy were at the Pentagon, meeting with the JCS, on November 22, 1963?

Edited March 24, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Benjamin Cole]

2 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

And if elements within the German government, or the French government, or NATO writ large were privy to the plot beforehand?

Were you aware that senior leadership of the Bundeswehr who had also held key positions in NATO from its infancy were at the Pentagon, meeting with the JCS, on November 22, 1963?

If they are, I still want to know the truth, and I call for full release of the JFK Records.

Let the chips fall where they may. 

[Leslie Sharp]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

That's your view, and I welcome your input. 

I contend a President can be a bad actor---witness Nixon, or in the eyes of many, Trump---and still be the target of intel-state generated regime-change ops. 

There was, in fact, a try at removing Trump from office not through the election box---the 2019 impeachment, the very same process that Nixon faced. But Nixon (and I am no Nixon fan) resigned first. 

Carter was also voted out of office, in a democratic election (and I am the rare Carter fan---the last honest US President, IMHO). That doesn't negate that intel-state operatives (this time, a weaponized 'Phant party) torpedoed Carter. 

Keep an open mind, as I will towards your presentations.

My arguments are not about the relative merits of the four presidents---they are what the shadow government did to those four presidents. (In fact, endless arguments about the merits of the four presidents should be confined to the proper threads).

The media was largely complicit in all four regime change ops....

 

Trump was impeached for soliciting foreign interference in a presidential election, and for inciting an insurrection. Are you arguing that the charges were trumped up by the intel-state, comprised of many of his own appointees at the time? 

The "shadow government" you refer to did not cause Trump to solicit foreign interference, nor did it force him to incite an insurrection. Were you to posit that elements of the corporate state, a.k.a the fascist state in our country might have manipulated him, I would seriously consider the argument. Trump self-imploded. He didn't need any help from "the deep state."

Edited March 24, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Trump was impeached for soliciting foreign interference in a presidential election, and for inciting an insurrection. Are you arguing that the charges were trumped up by the intel-state, comprised of many of his own appointees at the time? 

The "shadow government" you refer to did not cause Trump to solicit foreign interference, nor did it force him to incite an insurrection. Were you to posit that elements of the corporate state, a.k.a the fascist state in our country might have manipulated him, I would seriously consider the argument. Trump self-imploded. He didn't need any help from "the deep state."

Well, I will let you have final say. I have said my part. 

I hope you keep contributing to the EF-JFK, as do others with your views, or those with polar opposite views. 

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

I'm aware of the contradiction, and I think we discussed Varga and Marton on a separate thread.

Are you familiar with the following? And/or do you have proof that the SAC member lied, or that the referenced document is bogus?
 

About mid-1963, according to a former member of SAC [de Gaulle’s special anti-OAS police], who knew Souetre very well, Souetre did the following in April-May, 1963: 

(a) met [the CIA’s] Howard Hunt and Jean Claude Perez (Chief of ORO) in Madrid (b) went to the Caribbean with Laszlo Varga, Lajos Marton, and [a person with the last name] Buscia; (c) went to New Orleans and met with Carlos Bringuier [

NOTE. Lafitte May 9 entry 

 

. . . On November 12, 1963, former French army commando and paratrooper Jean Rene Marie Souetre—and two associates, both Hungarians, Laslo Vango [Laszlo Varga] and Lajos LNU [Marton], 

Leslie,

1) Consider the source. SAC really?

2) Laszlo Varga couldn't have gone to thr Caribbean in the April-May, 1963 time frame. He was in prison.

3) Did Hunt ever say he ever met with Souetre? Did Souetre ever say he ever met with Hunt?

4) Lejos Marton could not have gone to Mexico on November 12, 1963. Tried in absentia in January of 1963, he had been arrested in September of that year. Varga was already in prison.

Steve Thomas