How did David Mamet get involved with this?

[Joseph Backes]

46 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Mike Binder did an elaborate evaluation of what the turnout was in Chicago in 1960.

He then compared the wards in which Giancana had his most influence historically.

He discovered that in those wards the vote for JFK in 1960 was actually lower than it was in the previous presidential elections.

Which is the opposite of what it should be if Double Cross is to hold water.

Jim, WHERE did he do this? A book, an article, a website, a presentation, podcast, etc? 

[Joseph Backes]

I'll open it up to anyone.  Who is Mike Bender and where did he write or talk about the 1960 presidential election and Chicago?

Thank you

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Jim- The car guarding Sam mysteriously left the area just before Sam was murdered. It is possible that he was killed over some dispute but the timing of the murders of Roselli and Sam just before their testimony as well as the way Sam was murdered (shots around his mouth in classic warning to those who talk) suggests the murders were related to their upcoming testimony.  Sam knew stuff even if he was not actually a principle. Davis thought Trafficante may have been behind Roselli's murder.  

[Lawrence Schnapf]

The alleged Chicago vote is not the only alleged interaction between Old Man Kennedy and Chicago mob, and not even the most important claim.

several authors including Davis have reported that the old man had two contracts taken out on him- first by the mob in the upper midwest for reportedly shipping booze through their territory during prohibition,  and (2) a dispute with Frank Costello in NYC in the 1950s. For the latter, the story is that Old Man Kennedy went to Sam and asked Sam to talk to Costello. Sam asked why Joe Sr did not talk to Costello himself and reportedly Joe Sr said he could not because his JFK was going to run for POTUS and he (Joe  Sr) could not be seen having interactions with mobsters.  Reportedly Sam asked Joe Sr why he should intervene to cancel the contract. The story is that Old Man Kennedy said that if his son was elected POTUS, they would have a friend in the White House.    FWIW

[James DiEugenio]

Joe, I got his name wrong, its John Binder.

here you go.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5154619_Organized_crime_and_the_1960_presidential_election

 

As for Joe Kennedy being a bootlegger, sorry I don't buy it.  The book Last Call convinced me it was BS, that and Nasaw's  detailed accounting of how he really made his money. I had never seen records like that before.  The movie studios were literally throwing millions  at him.

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Joseph Backes]

32 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Joe, I got his name wrong, its John Binder.

here you go.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5154619_Organized_crime_and_the_1960_presidential_election

 

As for Joe Kennedy being a bootlegger, sorry I don't buy it.  The book Last Call convinced me it was BS, that and Nasaw's  detailed accounting of how he really made his money. I had never seen records like that before.  The movie studios were literally throwing millions  at him.

 

 

Jim,

Thank you.

I often try to acquire the books and articles you mention.  You often will mention a book or some source that despite my large collection I don't have.  I bought "Last Call," based on your appearance on BOR.  It's great to have a book or something that answers the zombie claims that just won't die.  

 

Joe

 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

i cant assess Binder's statistical analysis to determine if it is validly designed.  he dismisses accunts of Murray Humphreys wife and Bob McConnell as being not credible people so this is not entirely objective study. He doesnt address possibility that turnout might have been lower without their help (in other words- maintained turnout in the face of a Catholic candidate) as opposed to increasing turnout. He also dismisses the possibility that Old man Kennedy would have spoken to Sam without considering the other accounts of Joe Sr interacting with mobsters. I think the best that can be said is that if Outfit tried in Chicago, its efforts were outweighed by those of Daley. So without more, I'd say this does not discount possibility of a deal, just that Daley did a good job maintaining turnout.       

[Bob Ness]

9 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I've  written about this extensively so I won't repeat all that, there is a whole chapter on Roselli in SWHT.   Yes Harvey and Roselli were personally very tight and as I wrote most recently in Tipping Point Roselli did play a role in the attack in Dallas, putting together the connections to bring in Ruby as a support role.  However Harvey had warned off Roselli from any contact with Giancana et al when he brought Roselli into Mongoose and reactivated the Castro assassination project - adamantly telling him no further contact with them was to happen, and Roselli complied.

If you really dig into Roselli you find that his contacts with the godfathers were all peripheral, just part of his "consulting" and financial placement business, he was a broker for skim investments.  But his real mentor was and had always been Lansky, very much an outsider and often in competition with the others, especially in the Casino years in Havana. Anyone who does not have that history really does not understand what was going on circa 63 or how much it was different from only a few years earlier in 60/61 when Roselli was first contacted for the Castro assassination plot.

Bringing up Roselli in regard to the conspiracy makes sense in my view, but it has to be done in a realistic way and in an accurate context - which is not one that involves him on the ground in Dallas (just plain silly) and certainly not as a shooter. 

 

Thanks Larry. Interesting information that I'm not that familiar with.

[Larry Hancock]

I wasn't either Bob, when I started out I had the same impressions of Roselli, largely from JFK books.  It wasn't until I started going out of the box and looking at other sources that it became clear that as with most things, the Roselli of the 1960s was not the street hood of the east coast or the soldier from his time in Chicago but after he hit LA becoming something very different, to the point where describing him as a mobster falls way short of the mark.  He stayed tough but as his business cards stated, he became a strategic consultant - in where to put major skim monies, first in entertainment in LA then in entertainment and gambling in Vegas.  He became the "outsider", able to do business with anybody because he did become independent. 

It was also important to see the FBI documents that noted crime in LA was quite different than in most other cities, much more financial in nature and much harder to deal with for that reason - which is why they were going to such links to leverage his citizenship problem to bring him on as an informant.  Given his financial orientation he could have opened the door to numerous RICO investigations.

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

Jim and Larry in particular, anyone else at least somewhat familiar.  Jim, you mention two biographies on Roselli.  I've got Handsome Johnny by Lee Server, is that one of them?  In it JR goes from poverty in Boston (?) to manual labor in Chicago to LA.  Where he does a few favors and climbs the local ladder quickly driving trucks of booze in Prohibition then off shore gambling ships.  Goes back to Chicago at the invitation of Al Capone for a party.  Anointed Al's guy in LA overseeing investments.  Films, gambling, the development of Las Vegas, then Cuba working for Giancana, developing contacts with Cohen, Trafficante, Lansky, Marcello and more.  As well as Robert Maheu, Bill Harvey, maybe David Morales or Ruby?

[Larry Hancock]

Ron I would recommend this one by Rappleye and Becker :

https://www.amazon.com/All-American-Mafioso-Johnny-Rosselli/dp/1569800278

[Bob Ness]

12 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Ron I would recommend this one by Rappleye and Becker :

https://www.amazon.com/All-American-Mafioso-Johnny-Rosselli/dp/1569800278

Interesting. Thanks again, Larry.