Oliver Stone: "Putin is a great leader for his country."

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

The ghosts of Bucha call bullish-t.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/collecting-bodies-in-bucha

[Cliff Varnell]

Cotter and Barnard think it’s a breeze for foreigners to fight in Ukraine...

More great reporting by one of best journalists on the scene:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/02/trapped-in-the-trenches-in-ukraine

[Jeff Carter]

There is basic information which is being garbled here.

- There was no Treaty formalizing NATO’s promise not to expand eastward. However, there were very many high-level assurances made at the time (early 1990s), to the extent that when the expansion occurred it was a betrayal of a promise, a rescinding of an assurance. Note that a NATO analysis in 2004 concluded Russia would annex Crimea should NATO appear to covet the naval facilities there, and US Ambassador to Russia Burns penned a memo in 2008 which strongly warned of an armed conflict should NATO seek to expand into Ukraine. Both the analysis and the memo undercut the later argument that the Russian SMO was “unprovoked”.

- Ukraine never possessed nuclear weapons (for which everyone should be thankful). Those weapons belonged to the Soviet Union, and were based in Ukraine but redeployed or decommissioned through Soviet or CIS direction.

- The Minsk Agreement was a cease-fire treaty regarding the status of the Donbass region, signed twice and both times ahead of an imminent defeat of Ukraine forces in battle. The second signing was sponsored by the UN Security Council. It’s purpose was to formalize a federalization of Ukraine which would allow a degree of autonomy to Donbass in response to the constitutionally illegal change of government which occurred in February 2014. This federalization would have resulted in a status not unlike that of Quebec in Canada, but these terms were never accepted by nationalist interests within Ukraine. Otherwise,  the agreement had high levels of support across the population. In 2020, Ukraine passed laws formally rejecting the Minsk Accords and announcing the intent to reclaim the territory, and Crimea, through force of arms. Large Ukraine troop buildups on the Donbass border began in the spring of 2021. Ukraine renewed shelling of Donbass territory, including civilian areas, in February 2022 ahead of Russia’s SMO.

 

Analyzing geopolitics should not be a team sport featuring tribal partisanship. From my remove, I followed the Maidan protest movement from late 2013 through to the coup in late February 2014 and the subsequent annexation of Crimea. Clearly there was inappropriate meddling from Americans such as Nuland and McCain, and the recorded phone conversation by Nuland hinted at a more sinister role. The rapid declaration of legitimacy applied to the illegal coup on behalf of US, UK, and Canada, which scotched international mediation efforts, was an expression of bad faith and inherently destabilizing. That NATO’s leadership expressed “shock” over the annexation of Crimea, despite being foretold of such years earlier, was another expression of bad faith. Murderous attacks on protestors in Odessa and Mariupol by far-right militias, and initial attempts to “cancel” Russian cultural influence within Ukraine was an expression of  belligerent attitudes cultivated by a fanatic minority during WW2 which had effectively been since weaponized by the CIA. Objectively, Putin’s role in Ukraine has been one of reaction rather than initiation.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

That subject hasn’t come up.

In your liberal hegemonic propaganda feed? 😂🤣🤣

 

14 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Then quit doing that, by all means.

I guess introspection isn’t your strong suit. What is? 
 

14 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Projection much?

That literally makes no sense. When are you packing your bags and heading off to Ukraine to help? I know the answer. You’re taking the courageous route of sending them mental support. 
 

14 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

32 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

 

That’s a different conversation, your stab at self-righteous piety not withstanding.

Its exactly what is happening and you can’t see it and have zero outrage. Its because MSM his directed your anger at a bogey man in the Orwellian sense. Your emotions can be summoned up and directed, just by headlines. 
 

14 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Said the pro-genocide propagandist.

I am one of the few here who has been against the conflict from day one. I have expressed so many times that I desire, detente, rapprochement and a lasting peace. 

Of course its impossible for you to comprehend that there could be any position other than cheerleading escalation for team USA / NATO or cheerleading team Russia.  Why would I think that a person conditioned to look at everything in the good and evil paradigm could possibly imagine a third position?! 
 

I have a bunch of very wealthy, successful, academic friends who say to me: “Why waste your time trying to educate people who either don’t have the intelligence to work out whats going on in the world, or who choose to sit glued to propaganda on MSM. They’re on a different track.”  

[Bob Ness]

15 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

If you don’t thinK thats a fair deal that NATO signed, then you are welcome to lament it, Cliff. Just make sure that you are mad at NATO. For signing it and breaking it.  

Which agreement did NATO sign that you're refering to? The only agreement related to the Donbass region that NATO has signed is the NATO-Ukraine Charter of 1997, which established a political dialogue and cooperation between Ukraine and the Alliance. So, you're just making this stuff up? Or maybe I'm wrong and have missed something?

Edited May 8, 2023 by Bob Ness

[Guest]

Just now, Bob Ness said:

Which agreement did NATO sign that you're refering to?

I’ll do something that nobody else does here, Bob. It wasn’t signed Bob, it was verbal. Its an error on my part so say ‘signed’. All there is is notes from those accords. Its a similar thing regarding the withdrawal of troops from the former soviet states at the end of the soviet union. That was discussed by Bush & Gorbachev.
None of it change the situation of the west reneging on their pledge. And Clinton telling Yeltsin that NATO expansion would be slow, whilst privately organising the rapid expansion in 1999. 
 

Thanks

[Paul Brancato]

Feb 22, 2022 Putin invades. March 4th Zelensky and Putin meet in Russia mediated by former Israeli PM Naftali Bennett after Putin promises not to kill Zelensky. Both sides agree to major concessions, but ultimately negotiations fail. When asked if western powers blocked the mediation Bennett said “basically yes. They blocked it, and I thought they were wrong”.
18 days later well known Hoover Institute historian Niall Ferguson said “ I conclude that the US intends to keep this war going. The Administration will continue to supply the Ukrainians with Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, Javelin anti-tank missiles, and explosive drones …. It helps to explain among other things the lack of any diplomatic effort by the US to secure a cease fire … prolonging the war runs the risk not just of leaving tens of thousands of Ukrainians dead and millions homeless, but also of handing Putin something he can plausibly present at home as victory”. This from no friend of Putin, clearly a fascist in his view, and from someone who stands firmly behind the American Empire. 
Now we have the Pentagon leaks. Without any of us seeing what they said we were told that someone had edited them to make it look worse for Ukraine. All attention appears to be on the soldier who leaked the documents, rather than the contents therein, which we were told to ignore anyway. Think back - when was the last time we were told the truth about wars? The death toll is of course much higher than is being reported by the western press. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Paul Brancato

[Paul Brancato]

It’s disingenuous to argue that there was no agreement not to expand NATO forces to the Russian border. So it wasn’t signed? How clever. Contracts can be verbal as you all know. 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

That literally makes no sense. When are you packing your bags and heading off to Ukraine to help? I know the answer. You’re taking the courageous route of sending them mental support. 

They only take people with a military background.

Besides, since I’m 68 and walk with a cane I’d only get in the way.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Its exactly what is happening and you can’t see it and have zero outrage. Its because MSM his directed your anger at a bogey man in the Orwellian sense. Your emotions can be summoned up and directed, just by headlines. 

So when will you be going to Yemen?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

I am one of the few here who has been against the conflict from day one. I have expressed so many times that I desire, detente, rapprochement and a lasting peace. 

You’re an apologist for genocide.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Of course its impossible for you to comprehend that there could be any position other than cheerleading escalation for team USA / NATO or cheerleading team Russia.  

I co-formed and managed this band in 1980.  I’ve been protesting American regime change policies since before you were born, Sonny.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

 

Why would I think that a person conditioned to look at everything in the good and evil paradigm could possibly imagine a third position?! 

More projection.

[Bob Ness]

5 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

I’ll do something that nobody else does here, Bob. It wasn’t signed Bob, it was verbal. Its an error on my part so say ‘signed’. All there is is notes from those accords. Its a similar thing regarding the withdrawal of troops from the former soviet states at the end of the soviet union. That was discussed by Bush & Gorbachev.
None of it change the situation of the west reneging on their pledge. And Clinton telling Yeltsin that NATO expansion would be slow, whilst privately organising the rapid expansion in 1999. 
 

Thanks

Thank you. Wanted clarification on that. There was no signed agreement then. You realize that in order for NATO to come to any agreement it requires approval by the NATO membership, which at that time were 16 members; these countries were Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States. A DISCUSSION between Clinton or Bush, verbal or not, is NOT an agreement.

The Russian Federation well knows that this is NOT an agreement and not does not have any internationally recognized legal authority. It represents a position by both parties to form a diplomatic resolution to differences related to the region which have dated back generations. Further, the RF also knows that due to our institutions there are no fixed continuity policy discussions UNLESS there are SIGNED STIPULATIONS that carry forward the interval agreements in negotiations. That is dipolmacy 101 which of course most people, Oliver Stone included, won't know.

The continuation of RF talking points about the "agreement" or "treaty" that never existed ignores the ABSOLUTE legal authority of the CONTINUOUSLY RECOGNIZED borders of Ukraine which includes Crimea. These borders have been recognized by the USSR and subsequently by the Russian Federation and was legally agreed to by the Russian Federation Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, agreeing to respect the independence and sovereignty of Ukraine, refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine, and to return the nuclear weapons stored in Ukraine to Russia.

Again: The USSR recognized the borders of Ukraine in 1990. This recognition was stipulated in the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine, which was signed by the USSR SUPREME SOVIET. This recognition was reaffirmed in the 1997 NATO-Ukraine Charter and the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, both of which Russia signed.

There is a reason to agreed upon borders in the nuclear age (and before really). It gives everyone the information, regardless of position in whatever controversy, the basic definition of the line that gets crossed that becomes aggression or invasion, take your pick.

Just in case you weren't aware: the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was a sovereign state within the Soviet Union since about 1922. It had its own constitution and government, and was responsible for its own internal affairs and foreign policy.

So it has been legally recognized by the USSR AND RF for 100 years and that includes the disputed areas.

And there ya go.

[Bob Ness]

29 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

It’s disingenuous to argue that there was no agreement not to expand NATO forces to the Russian border. So it wasn’t signed? How clever. Contracts can be verbal as you all know. 

Paul. We CAN'T sign agreements or make "verbal" ones for other countries. Treaties and diplomatic agreements have to be signed, yes. Otherwise we'd just agree to have the Russian Federation leave Ukraine. NATO is an alliance, not a stoolie of the US.

And please don't say they just do whatever we tell em.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Bob Ness

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

They only take people with a military background.

Besides, since I’m 68 and walk with a cane I’d only get in the way.

That stopped Conor Kennedy did it? And its the cane that really stopped you?! Who are you trying to con here? If you were younger you’d be claiming it was your eye sight or asthma or something. What a joke. 
 

8 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

So when will you be going to Yemen?

 I believe in detente, rapprochement, and peace. Thats why you won’t catch me cheerleading conflicts and giving consent to arms manufacturers to use our taxes. 
 

10 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

You’re an apologist for genocide.

How you can think that someone who wanted the war stopped yesterday is pro genocide is showing your irrational thought process. If slurs are your game. I can think up a few for you. Upto you. 😉

 

13 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I co-formed and managed this band in 1980.  I’ve been protesting American regime change policies since before you were born, Sonny.

I guess thats one step better than faux-sincerity and virtue signalling from a keyboard. You keep pretending. 
 

 

“War... what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.” 🎶 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Feb 22, 2022 Putin invades. March 4th Zelensky and Putin meet in Russia mediated by former Israeli PM Naftali Bennett after Putin promises not to kill Zelensky. Both sides agree to major concessions, but ultimately negotiations fail. When asked if western powers blocked the mediation Bennett said “basically yes. They blocked it, and I thought they were wrong”.

Former Israeli prime minister rebuts claim, boosted by Russia, that the US blocked a Ukraine peace agreement: 'It's unsure there was any deal to be made'

https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-bennett-walks-back-claim-west-blocked-ukraine-russia-peace-deal-2023-2?op=1

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

That stopped Conor Kennedy did it? And its the cane that really stopped you?! Who are you trying to con here? If you were younger you’d be claiming it was your eye sight or asthma or something. What a joke. 

Is it asthma keeping you from going to Yemen?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

 I believe in detente, rapprochement, and peace. Thats why you won’t catch me cheerleading conflicts and giving consent to arms manufacturers to use our taxes. 

We catch you making excuses for Putin’s genocide.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Bob Ness said:

Thank you. Wanted clarification on that.

Thanks, Bob. I thought I would be one of the very few people here with the integrity to correct an error in the record. I think more people should try it, honesty always feels good. 
 

Some of you guys can deny any verbal agreements and concessions. You can say whatever Clinton said is meaningless. I am sure it could have been done with elements of the Cuban Missile Crisis detente and conditions. The reality is that one side feels sore and betrayed. Now you have a big problem to deal with. The answer isn’t more bombs, its back to the table. This is one colossal failure of diplomacy. The west bears a big burden of responsibility. Do they care when the military industrial complex is profiting, fuel scarcity is generating sometimes trebled profits? Probably not. They’re celebrating. 
 

I think some need to reconcile that.