Any regrets or missed opportunities regarding witnesses and evidence?

[Mike Aitken]

Just wondering if any of you, in your past, have any regrets or missed opportunities relating to speaking with witnesses/connected people or finding/studying evidence, etc.?

I’m still a complete amateur when it comes to the political assassinations of the 60s, but even I had a few opportunities, peripherally, when I could have spoken to people closer to the JFK, MLK, and RFK assassinations.  Unfortunately, my knowledge and understanding of these cases was essentially non-existent at the time.

15-20 years ago I worked a retail job in DC and two of our very regular customers were Alexandra Zapruder and Julian Bond.  They were both kind and polite, chatted with the employees, and I would even go so far as to say that Mr. Bond and his wife were “friends” of the store because we assisted them so often.  I never did take the opportunity to ask Mr. Bond about the King assassination, and the only time I asked Ms. Zapruder about the Kennedy assassination, I believe I asked something along the lines of “Are you related to Abraham Zapruder?” And “Do you think anyone else was involved?” If I recall correctly, she replied “yes” and “no”.

A while later I was working for another business and we were helping the Mankiewicz family to close out the estate of Frank Mankiewicz.  They had innumerable priceless Kennedy artifacts.  Thinking back, it was another time that I wish I knew what I know today and had asked a few questions.

Just curious about your answers.

[Pat Speer]

21 minutes ago, Mike Aitken said:

Just wondering if any of you, in your past, have any regrets or missed opportunities relating to speaking with witnesses/connected people or finding/studying evidence, etc.?

I’m still a complete amateur when it comes to the political assassinations of the 60s, but even I had a few opportunities, peripherally, when I could have spoken to people closer to the JFK, MLK, and RFK assassinations.  Unfortunately, my knowledge and understanding of these cases was essentially non-existent at the time.

15-20 years ago I worked a retail job in DC and two of our very regular customers were Alexandra Zapruder and Julian Bond.  They were both kind and polite, chatted with the employees, and I would even go so far as to say that Mr. Bond and his wife were “friends” of the store because we assisted them so often.  I never did take the opportunity to ask Mr. Bond about the King assassination, and the only time I asked Ms. Zapruder about the Kennedy assassination, I believe I asked something along the lines of “Are you related to Abraham Zapruder?” And “Do you think anyone else was involved?” If I recall correctly, she replied “yes” and “no”.

A while later I was working for another business and we were helping the Mankiewicz family to close out the estate of Frank Mankiewicz.  They had innumerable priceless Kennedy artifacts.  Thinking back, it was another time that I wish I knew what I know today and had asked a few questions.

Just curious about your answers.

I believe the reality is that the world is not as big as most think it is, and that most people are connected to historical events in one way or another. 

This is demonstrated by my own trip down the rabbit hole. At one point I became intrigued by Robert Maheu. He was the cut-out between the CIA and the Mafia for the attempts on Castro, was Howard Hughes' public face for a decade or so, and was quite possibly the reason Nixon's men bugged the DNC. While reading his auto-bio, however, I received a surprise. At one point he mentions meeting a Texas oilman on a plane, and becoming friends with this man for life. This is if I recall the only personal friend mentioned in the book. Well, this oilman was my dad's boss when I was growing up, someone I had met a number of times. Shortly thereafter I read a book about Hughes, in which the theft of documents in his possession relating to a top secret spy ship he'd built on behalf the CIA, using Maheu's connections, was discussed in great detail. While reading this I discovered another connection. One of the men involved in this theft was a former actor, who had testified against the security guard. Well, upon reading this book, it became clear that this actor was actually the ring-leader of the gang who'd ripped off Hughes. Now get this. This man was a buddy of my mom's ex-boyfriend, whom she'd met and hung out with on several occasions. On reading through the book, moreover, it became clear to me that one of the unidentified members of the gang who'd ripped off Hughes was my mom's ex-boyfriend, who'd sold his house and moved in with us around the time of the robbery. 

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I believe the reality is that the world is not as big as most think it is, and that most people are connected to historical events in one way or another. 

This is demonstrated by my own trip down the rabbit hole. At one point I became intrigued by Robert Maheu. He was the cut-out between the CIA and the Mafia for the attempts on Castro, was Howard Hughes' public face for a decade or so, and was quite possibly the reason Nixon's men bugged the DNC. While reading his auto-bio, however, I received a surprise. At one point he mentions meeting a Texas oilman on a plane, and becoming friends with this man for life. This is if I recall the only personal friend mentioned in the book. Well, this oilman was my dad's boss when I was growing up, someone I had met a number of times. Shortly thereafter I read a book about Hughes, in which the theft of documents in his possession relating to a top secret spy ship he'd built on behalf the CIA, using Maheu's connections, was discussed in great detail. While reading this I discovered another connection. One of the men involved in this theft was a former actor, who had testified against the security guard. Well, upon reading this book, it became clear that this actor was actually the ring-leader of the gang who'd ripped off Hughes. Now get this. This man was a buddy of my mom's ex-boyfriend, whom she'd met and hung out with on several occasions. On reading through the book, moreover, it became clear to me that one of the unidentified members of the gang who'd ripped off Hughes was my mom's ex-boyfriend, who'd sold his house and moved in with us around the time of the robbery. 

Six degrees of separation.

[Joe Bauer]

I don't know whether my little story is even worth sharing but:

15 to 20 years ago I was in a grocery store parking lot recycling redemption line.

They used to have these back then, however, the stores all got together and got our California state representatives to dump them.

It was a great way for homeless people to make a few cash dollars from doing real work, picking up recycled cans and plastic bottles off the streets and in parks and such.

I wasn't homeless but hurting financially enough myself I also did this.

I'd make from $10 to $15 a week.

Most of us ( including myself ) looked like the three Dealey Plaza tramps. 

One mid-day I was in line and had about 10 plastic trash bag holding people behind me.

Incredibly, in our common bond brotherly bantering someone brought up the JFKA and how it was a conspiracy!

First and only time I ever heard such talk.

Right up my alley.

A fellow younger than me ( with a clean and trimmed beard and more traveling, free spirit hippie looking than homeless ) and with a girlfriend volunteered the following recollection:

Can't remember the exact details but the general gist of his proclamation was that his father was in some way connected to Bethesda Naval Hospital. I believe in pathology.

He said his dad was very surprised he wasn't called to perform or help perform some aspect of JFK's autopsy.

And his dad was very suspicious when Commander Humes was selected for this assignment especially because his father felt he ( the father ) was much more qualified than Humes.

I was the only person in that line that knew anything about this fellow's recollection story in a true historical sense way. I think I may even have asked him a follow up question or two.

I have long ago forgotten what my questions to him were.

And once you got your recycle monies you skedaddled on your way.

No sticking around for small talk with the left over desperate looking guys and gals most of which were missing most of their teeth and looking sleeping outdoors weathered and exhausted.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Brancato]

Joe -That’s a good story that makes sense and could have been a meaningful avenue for research. 

[Pat Speer]

9 hours ago, Mike Aitken said:

Just wondering if any of you, in your past, have any regrets or missed opportunities relating to speaking with witnesses/connected people or finding/studying evidence, etc.?

I’m still a complete amateur when it comes to the political assassinations of the 60s, but even I had a few opportunities, peripherally, when I could have spoken to people closer to the JFK, MLK, and RFK assassinations.  Unfortunately, my knowledge and understanding of these cases was essentially non-existent at the time.

15-20 years ago I worked a retail job in DC and two of our very regular customers were Alexandra Zapruder and Julian Bond.  They were both kind and polite, chatted with the employees, and I would even go so far as to say that Mr. Bond and his wife were “friends” of the store because we assisted them so often.  I never did take the opportunity to ask Mr. Bond about the King assassination, and the only time I asked Ms. Zapruder about the Kennedy assassination, I believe I asked something along the lines of “Are you related to Abraham Zapruder?” And “Do you think anyone else was involved?” If I recall correctly, she replied “yes” and “no”.

A while later I was working for another business and we were helping the Mankiewicz family to close out the estate of Frank Mankiewicz.  They had innumerable priceless Kennedy artifacts.  Thinking back, it was another time that I wish I knew what I know today and had asked a few questions.

Just curious about your answers.

As far as missed opportunities. I met a number of witnesses while in attendance at conferences. I chatted with most of them. As most of them at one point got up and told their story, it felt wrong to grill them off-stage. But in retrospect I wish I'd had a hand-held recorder and a prepared list of five to six questions to ask these witnesses--people like Newman, Frazier, Tague, Moorman, Rike, McLain, McClelland, Sawyer, Oliver, Baker, etc. I can't say anything ground-breaking would have come of  it, but having a prepared list can be quite helpful. Unfortunately, it can also be intimidating to the witnesses, who just want a nice visit and chat, as opposed to a grilling. At one point, I was asked to prepare some questions to ask Gerry Hemming on camera. He backed out, citing his health. Although I believe he was in poor health, I can't help but suspect that he knew--based upon my behavior on this forum--that I wasn't gonna just let him get away with saying whatever sounded good at the time--and that this was more than what he'd bargained for. . 

[Joe Bauer]

51 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

As far as missed opportunities. I met a number of witnesses while in attendance at conferences. I chatted with most of them. As most of them at one point got up and told their story, it felt wrong to grill them off-stage. But in retrospect I wish I'd had a hand-held recorder and a prepared list of five to six questions to ask these witnesses--people like Newman, Frazier, Tague, Moorman, Rike, McLain, McClelland, Sawyer, Oliver, Baker, etc. I can't say anything ground-breaking would have come of  it, but having a prepared list can be quite helpful. Unfortunately, it can also be intimidating to the witnesses, who just want a nice visit and chat, as opposed to a grilling. At one point, I was asked to prepare some questions to ask Gerry Hemming on camera. He backed out, citing his health. Although I believe he was in poor health, I can't help but suspect that he knew--based upon my behavior on this forum--that I wasn't gonna just let him get away with saying whatever sounded good at the time--and that this was more than what he'd bargained for. . 

Hemming?

What a blowhard.

Yet much of what he bragged about...was true!

The challenge with him and his claims was trying to determine which ones "were" true.

Did he really interact with Oswald when they were both stationed at Atsugi in Japan?

Pat, you actually had an off-stage conversation with Parkland/Trauma Room 1 physician Dr. Robert McClelland?

What did you make of him and his views on what he saw and felt regards his practically hands-on close attending to JFK ( 18 inches from the back of JFK's head ) and similar proximity to Oswald as he lay dying in the ER ( or surgery room ) at Parkland on 11/24,1963?

In your opinion...was Dr. McClelland a person of high integrity and honesty? If you disagree about any part of his presentation claims at the conference you were both attending could you briefly explain why you felt so?

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Hemming?

What a blowhard.

Yet much of what he bragged about...was true!

The challenge with him and his claims was trying to determine which ones "were" true.

Did he really interact with Oswald when they were both stationed at Atsugi in Japan?

Pat, you actually had an off-stage conversation with Parkland/Trauma Room 1 physician Dr. Robert McClelland?

What did you make of him and his views on what he saw and felt regards his practically hands-on close attending to JFK ( 18 inches from the back of JFK's head ) and similar proximity to Oswald as he lay dying in the ER ( or surgery room ) at Parkland on 11/24,1963?

In your opinion...was Dr. McClelland a person of high integrity and honesty? If you disagree about any part of his presentation claims at the conference you were both attending could you briefly explain why you felt so?

By the time I met McClelland--only briefly, while he was walking down the hall after a presentation--I had studied his statements and had come to doubt the accuracy of some of his claims. So I just asked him a few questions no one else had thought to ask. I remember asking him if anyone had ever threatened him or pressured him to change any of his impressions. He adamantly denied this. I believe I nodded my head as he did so. He seemed in a bit of a hurry, and was soft-spoken, so I felt guilty pushing him further. So I thanked him for coming forward and sharing his recollections. 

My impression at the time, and largely still, is that he was a nice man, and that the inconsistencies in his statements were the work of Father Time and peer pressure. Shortly before he died, however, I noticed that there were dozens of drawings of his for sale on eBay, showing what was purported to be his impression of JFK's wound locations. These drawings showed wounds he never saw and wounds in locations where he had once said there was no wound. The placement of the head wound, to be clear, seemed to be an attempt at replicating the drawing made for Six Seconds in Dallas. The people selling these drawings were asking for large sums. I want to believe that people approached him at conferences, and asked him to make a drawing, and then decided to sell them at a profit, without his knowledge. 

But I am forced to conclude that he created the drawings for his own profit and was simply giving his customers what they wanted. 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Pete Mellor]

At Lancer in 2003 I had breakfast with Lawrence Teeter and we spoke about Sirhan's seeming hypnotic state during and after RFK's killing.  He was very interested in hearing about fellow lawyer Fenton Bresler's book on the Lennon murder.  We spoke for 20 minutes or so, but like Pat's post, I didn't have any recording equipment with me.  At the same conference I spent some time with Dennis David, we sat by the hotel pool while he was being interviewed by a film crew.  James Hosty and Skip Rydberg were there too.  A decade later, even though I did have a recorder this time, I didn't have it to hand while sat with Beverley Oliver.  Hindsight.

[Joe Bauer]

On 9/16/2023 at 4:46 PM, Pat Speer said:

By the time I met McClelland--only briefly, while he was walking down the hall after a presentation--I had studied his statements and had come to doubt the accuracy of some of his claims. So I just asked him a few questions no one else had thought to ask. I remember asking him if anyone had ever threatened him or pressured him to change any of his impressions. He adamantly denied this. I believe I nodded my head as he did so. He seemed in a bit of a hurry, and was soft-spoken, so I felt guilty pushing him further. So I thanked him for coming forward and sharing his recollections. 

A nice man but mistaken or misremembering due to age?

I would have asked him if he remembered Dr. Charles Crenshaw being present in the Lee Oswald shot wound treatment room.

And if he remembered any conversation about a call to Crenshaw from LBJ that day as Crenshaw claimed.

McClelland was a very close friend of Dr. Perry. Easily verified.

Have you ever heard of any under oath testimony that contradicted McClelland's Trauma Room 1 claims?

That he was where he stated he was? At the top of the treatment table just 18 inches from the top of JFK's head?

And that brain tissue was oozing out of and falling out of the head back wound?

 

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

A nice man but mistaken or misremembering due to age?

I would have asked him if he remembered Dr. Charles Crenshaw being present in the Lee Oswald shot wound treatment room.

And if he remembered any conversation about a call to Crenshaw from LBJ that day as Crenshaw claimed.

McClelland was a very close friend of Dr. Perry. Easily verified.

Have you ever heard of any under oath testimony that contradicted McClelland's Trauma Room 1 claims?

That he was where he stated he was? At the top of the treatment table just 18 inches from the top of JFK's head?

And that brain tissue was oozing out of and falling out of the head back wound?

 

I am not aware of anyone's disputing McClelland's presence in the room or his seeing brain, etc. The doubts about his latter-day claims stem from his earliest statements. On the day of the shooting he wrote that the President's death was due to a wound of the left temple. He made no mention of a wound on the back of the head. While he later tried to cover by saying he'd been confused by Jenkins and thought Jenkins had pointed out an entrance wound on the left side of the head, this makes little sense to me. Doctors DON'T write reports claiming what they thought someone else saw, while neglecting to report what they themselves saw. Well, this leads me to conclude he saw a wound on the right temple--where it was observed by Newman, Zapruder, Buckley, etc--and got confused as to left and right. In any event, within a few weeks of the shooting he told a journalist that there was nothing about the President's head wound to make him think the shot came from the front. I have seen him interviewed, furthermore, in which he admitted believing the fatal shot came from behind until seeing the Zapruder film on TV. In short, then, his actual statements don't support what many believe about him. Most CTs believe he was an unimpeachable truth-teller, who saw a blow-out wound low on the back of JFK's head, and KNEW the shot came from the front from day one. They assume then that he took decades to come forward out of fear. And that is why I asked him if he'd ever felt pressured to lie or go along with a story, etc. And he said no. While, in his final years, his impressions of the President's wounds were at odds with those of some of his colleagues, he agreed with them that Crenshaw was blowing smoke in his implication they all were pressured to lie or go along with the official story, and did so out of fear. 

[Micah Mileto]

On 9/16/2023 at 7:46 PM, Pat Speer said:

 

McClelland specifically said several times that he didn't see any small wounds in the head, but that he thought it was possible there could've been.

[Pat Speer]

48 minutes ago, Micah Mileto said:

McClelland specifically said several times that he didn't see any small wounds in the head, but that he thought it was possible there could've been.

Yes, that's true. This is important for two reasons. 1) it demonstrates that it is as I said--that his report claiming the wound was of the left temple was either a mistaken reference to the right temple, OR a reference to a wound he never saw, whilst simultaneously failing to mention the wound he did see. And 2) it demonstrates that those citing him as a forehead entry witness are full of beans. He would ultimately tell people he THOUGHT there had been a wound on the forehead...that went unseen at Parkland, And he marked this wound on drawings demonstrating what he THOUGHT were the President's wounds. But he was clear about never seeing such a wound, and only coming to believe there had been such a wound much much later. 

[Paul Harris]

Ok, I'll add my two cents. Back in the 80's & 90's I was an insurance investigator. I got a minor assignment to interview  an elderly woman who had fallen at a restaurant here in San Antonio.  Typically called "slip and fall claim" in the business.  I called her and introduced myself and told her I needed to ask her some questions about the incident and get her version of what occurred.  She said that was fine but she wanted to meet with me in person, rather than do it over the phone. I suggested we meet at the restaurant.  When she she arrived she was dressed very nicely and had either her daughter or granddaughter with her. I pulled out my small recorder and told her we record the conversation to insure accuracy.  She didn't object. But before we started, she said something that haunts me to this day. She said in her younger years she had a job were she also took statements. I asked what she did. She said she worked for the Federal Government for the Immigration Department in Brownsville,Tx. The FBI also had an office in the building.  One day a FBI agent asked her to come down to their office to write down in steno the statements of two men that were just arrested for trying to run illegal guns into Mexico.  She said the two men were Lee Harvey Oswald and "that man that shot Judge John Wood", who was of course Charles Harrelson. Although she was elderly, about 80, she was very intelligent and lucid, and I had no reason not to believe her story.

[Mark Stevens]

I first became interested in JFK and the JFKA when I was about 12. There was a flood of JFK related things on TV at the time and I've since understood that this was 1993 and the 30th "anniversary" of the event. 

One of the shows on during this time was a cop drama based on real experiences from real cops called "Top Cops." During the JFK 30th they aired an episode that featured "Nick" McDonald. At the end of the episode they mentioned that he was living in my hometown of Hot Springs, Arkansas. I immediately looked him up in the phone book and called him and mentioned my interest in the events and if I could talk with him. He was happy to talk with me and over the next 2 years or so I visited him many times, helped him do things around the house, and talked with him about his experiences that day. I fell out of touch with him and regret not visiting with him more before he died.

My regret is I didn't have the anything near the knowledge and questions about that day that I do now and I really wish I would have asked him more in-depth questions, took more notes, and kept the notes I did take. 

I also believe that time biased me considerably to criticism of McDonald and what he may have done that day and his motivations for what people claim he might have done. The Nick I knew (albeit as a child) had a different character than what people try to pin on him and I don't believe he had anything to do with framing Oswald. His character was far different than that of the crooked cop in "Shooter," at least as much as I can recall and could have seen through the eyes of a 12 year old.