Did the Plotters View RFK's Murder of Marilyn Monroe as Justification for Killing JFK?

[Pamela Brown]

On 10/15/2023 at 5:02 PM, Cory Santos said:

Jim it is simple.  As a trial lawyer I don’t get fooled with simple word games.    He said he had no knowledge of any affair but he could not say what happened behind closed doors.   Thus he could not rule it out and he left the door open.  That is convenient plausible denial.  He just did not have direct knowledge.   So as a trial attorney I recognize the game and I ask follow up questions.   What you are claiming as proof here is not proof.   
Furthermore it is a disgrace to her for you to call her murder a suicide.  Further you victim shame her by using her psychological issues as proof she was going to commit suicide.    This is a good victim shaming tactic but it is wrong. 

Thank you, Cory.  I agree that trying to blame the victim in this case, namely Marilyn, is  unhelpful...

Jim also seems to be using the 'three monkeys' 'strategy...hear no evil, think no evil, etc, etc...

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Pamela Brown said:

Marilyn did have plastic surgery that we know of on her nose, to remove a 'bulb' at the end, and to strengthen her jawline...

If true, I stand corrected.

However, seeing early age photos of Norma Jean before she ever became famous I can't see hardly any difference in her facial structure looks compared to the adult ones.

Must have been very minor surgical procedures.

And nothing to her body at all.

It looks as though MM had a kind of reddish tint hair color in it's natural state.

Those early pics clearly show her incredible beauty she was just born with.

The one of her as an adolescent on the beach already captured that famous playful smile of hers.

 

I do find it hard to believe JFK didn't have at least one intimate encounter with MM.

Peter Lawford would have been the most logical link to have arranged such a tryst.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Griffith]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:10 PM, James DiEugenio said:

1.  Cory, if  he never saw any evidence of an affair then that is it.  Period.  He is not, as you tried to suggest, in opposition to Hill, he is in unison with him.

2. Joe, are you serious? You never saw MM act in any of her films, like Gentleman Prefer Blondes etc?  Even Burt Reynolds, who knew her from her New York days said that one day they were walking down Broadway, and no one noticed her.  And Burt commented on that.  She then said: OK, now watch this.  She took her hair down and changed her walk and suddenly people did start noticing them.  Burt said it was one of the most immediate, sharp, yet subtle changes he ever saw an actress do.  MM really worked hard to master certain techniques to give an effective performance.  If you want to see how skilled she was, watch the skit she did with Jack Benny on his TV show.  Its on You Tube. And then watch the same skit with Mansfield.  Night and day. 

3.  And this is what I mean.  She was really good at putting on that persona.  Because, as I said, she was with her father in law (he is in those photos in Don's article) that night both before and after, who she really liked. She actually wanted him to return to LA with her. But for whatever reason he did not want to go. So she dropped him off in her rented limo in Brooklyn I think, and she returned to her apartment where one or two of her fans were waiting for her.  Even though it was late, she stopped and talked.  It was just them.  And then she went upstairs to her apartment.  And that was it.  Except I think her masseuse was there and that is how she fell asleep.

Pamela: In the uncropped version was Schlesinger in on it also?  Even though, as I prove above in number three, nothing happened?

I again pose these two questions:

Are you saying that JFK was not a serial adulterer, that he did not cheat on Jackie many, many, many times? Even McGovern, your supposedly "authoritative" and "gold standard" source, readily admits that JFK was a flagrant adulterer, and that some of his "conquests" included several Hollywood starlets (LINK).

By the way, some of his affairs with noted actresses only became known when the actresses revealed them to friends who then reported them or when the actresses disclosed them in a biography/autobiography.

Are you saying that JFK never slept with Marilyn even once? Are you aware of J. Randy Taraborrelli's new book Jackie: Public, Private, Secret, published just a few months ago? Taraborrelli did almost 25 years of research and interviews with Jackie's family, friends, and former lovers. Over the course of his years of research, Taraborrelli came across evidence that JFK had a brief affair with Marilyn Monroe, which Taraborrelli says consisted of a weekend-long fling in March 1962.

[James DiEugenio]

Mike:

You know between your comments on the Prouty thread and now this, I really do not know what to make of you on this forum.

You started this dumb thread in the first place with its ridiculous heading.  You then abandon it and then you come back and you apparently do not read what was written in between.

There is evidence for one encounter between JFK and MM.  Period.

There is no evidence at all between RFK and MM.  That is simply balderdash.

Nothing at all happened at the night in question at MSG, and I have proved this with first hand evidence. 

FInally, RFK had no romantic entanglement with MM and had nothing to do with her demise.  Over and out.  And this is also provable with all kinds of evidence.  And any rumors about that did not occur in print until 1964, after JFK was killed.  So you should just stop this innuendo with that Mark Shaw type of overtone you have as a heading on this thread.  It is truly nutty. As it smears three people.

MM died of barbiturate poisoning which had been ingested, not injected.  And not taken by enema or suppository.  And that is also proven.  The question then becomes: was it deliberate or was it accidental?  One can make an argument for both sides on that one.  But if someone takes well over seven hundred pills in 50 days, and a bottle of Nembutals in 36 hours, I mean that is pretty much asking for trouble. Try and buy Nembutals on the open market today.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Cory Santos]

6 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Mike:

You know between your comments on the Prouty thread and now this, I really do not know what to make of you on this forum.

You started this dumb thread in the first place with its ridiculous heading.  You then abandon it and then you come back and you apparently do not read what was written in between.

There is evidence for one encounter between JFK and MM.  Period.

There is no evidence at all between RFK and MM.  That is simply balderdash.

Nothing at all happened at the night in question at MSG, and I have proved this with first hand evidence. 

FInally, RFK had no romantic entanglement with MM and had nothing to do with her demise.  Over and out.  And this is also provable with all kinds of evidence.  So you should just stop this innuendo with that Mark Shaw type of overtone, you have as a heading on this thread.  It is truly nutty. As it smears three people.

MM died of barbiturate poisoning which had been ingested, not injected.  And not taken by enema or suppository.  And that is also proven.  The question then becomes: was it deliberate or was it accidental?  One can make an argument for both sides on that one.  But if someone takes well over seven hundred pills in 50 days, and a bottle of Nembutals in 36 hours, I mean that is pretty much asking for trouble.

 

How can you now say there was only one encounter still?   Previously you wrote:

Hi, Jim,

A People magazine article, published on 16 October 2022, written by Tierney McAfee, reported the following about Jerry Blaine’s MM and JFK statements:

Jerry Blaine, a former Secret Service agent in the Kennedy detail, told PEOPLE that he was with JFK during two known encounters the president had with Monroe — one at Lawford's Santa Monica home in 1961 and another at the party in New  York  

End Quote.

So is it one or two encounters Jim?   If you stick to one, as you said above, then you ignore Blaine.  That is picking and choosing your evidence.

Fact, Monroe knew stopping shooting would affect her movie contract.  Why would she risk that for someone she did not know- especially after the Misfits underperformed! Ridiculous to suggest. 

Fact, Jackie knew Monroe would be singing.  That fact is why she found an excuse not to go.

Fact, the photo of the three of them was only released in 2010 by  Cecil Stoughton.  Perhaps there are more somewhere or can you tell us definitely there are not?   Hint, the answer is below so you might want to cheat.
Let me be clear, I do not believe the Kennedy’s had anything to do with her murder.  But since this is a forum where everyone casts speculative stones at good people and governmental agencies, maybe everyone should read this interesting article https://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/06/01/marilyn.monroe.birthday.photo/index.html

 

[James DiEugenio]

I am not ignoring Blaine Cory.  You are distorting what he said.

And anyone can see that.  When someone is in the same building as someone else, does that mean they are copulating?  No, especially when its in public with other people around.

This whole cheapjack industry that has grown up around MM has been really pernicious for all involved. But in one way it  really cheapened MM herself. As John GIlmore once wrote, the object seems to be "anything to trash Marilyn for a buck."  

Monroe was not a Mafia moll. She was not an undercover agent for the CIA or the KGB.  She was not a UFOlogist, and she sure as heck was not involved in the CIA plots to kill Castro.  But yet that was the end result of the tall tales of Slatzer and Carmen.  Encouraged by writers like Wolfe and Summers who referenced them.

MM worked hard at her craft.  She really wanted to be an accomplished actress. She also did not like the Hollywood system.  That is why she broke away from it and became the first actress since Pickford to form her own company. She actually faced down Zanuck, a very powerful figure at the time, over this. She returned a script to the studio once after writing the word TRASH over the first page.  At the Actor's Studio she performed in Anna Christie, a play by O'Neill.  Ellen Burstyn saw it and said she was good.

The pressures of her career got to her since she was not a really confident person due to her unfortunate--in the extreme-- childhood. Both her mother and her grandmother were committed to asylums.  Its an open question if she ever knew or met her father.  She did not meet her sister until she was 15.  And she never did find the right psychiatric/ medical doctor team.  She went through three psychiatrists in something like 6-7 years.  And Greenson's treatment of her was very controversial. But she had to switch to him since her prior shrink, Kris, actually placed her in an asylum.

But the worst part is that her medical doctor and Greenson were not in unison as to what pills she was getting or how many.  And there is evidence she bought off the black market. But its clear she never found the right team.  Both those guys, Engelberg and Greenson, should have been professionally disciplined--at the least. Probably placed on trial.

Edited October 17, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Larry Hancock]

Well said Jim, I knew a long time JFK researcher from LA who had grown up in the industry and he recalled MM coming to readings and group practices and she was interested in nothing except improving her craft.  She wanted to be  a superior actress; he said he never saw her in anything other than a sloppy sweat shirt and slacks during all those sessions....or until she made it into the movies.

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Larry.

While in NYC, rebelling against Zanuck, she really fell in love with the Actor's Studio, especially Lee Strasberg. His wife  became her coach.

That family was the prime beneficiary of her will.

Edited October 18, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Pamela Brown]

23 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

If true, I stand corrected.

However, seeing early age photos of Norma Jean before she ever became famous I can't see hardly any difference in her facial structure looks compared to the adult ones.

Must have been very minor surgical procedures.

And nothing to her body at all.

It looks as though MM had a kind of reddish tint hair color in it's natural state.

Those early pics clearly show her incredible beauty she was just born with.

The one of her as an adolescent on the beach already captured that famous playful smile of hers.

 

I do find it hard to believe JFK didn't have at least one intimate encounter with MM.

Peter Lawford would have been the most logical link to have arranged such a tryst.

 

You are right, that the changes that were made were so that Marilyn would photograph perfectly from any angle.  And they were minor changes. You can see in your photo the shadow the end of her nose casts. By making the bulb smalle there is no shadow.  I don't know just what it was about her jaw that needed strengthening...

But it did take Marilyn four hours or more to get ready for any public appearance, so you can imagine there was some taping and spackling going on in the process.  Whatever they did, the end result was incredible...

Have you seen Marilyn in her bit part in All About Eve, with the fabulous Bette Davis (whom I happened to meet)...

 

Marilyn just stole every scene she was in...

Edited October 18, 2023 by Pamela Brown

[Pamela Brown]

16 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

How can you now say there was only one encounter still?   Previously you wrote:

 

Hi, Jim,

A People magazine article, published on 16 October 2022, written by Tierney McAfee, reported the following about Jerry Blaine’s MM and JFK statements:

Jerry Blaine, a former Secret Service agent in the Kennedy detail, told PEOPLE that he was with JFK during two known encounters the president had with Monroe — one at Lawford's Santa Monica home in 1961 and another at the party in New  York  

End Quote.

So is it one or two encounters Jim?   If you stick to one, as you said above, then you ignore Blaine.  That is picking and choosing your evidence.

Fact, Monroe knew stopping shooting would affect her movie contract.  Why would she risk that for someone she did not know- especially after the Misfits underperformed! Ridiculous to suggest. 

Fact, Jackie knew Monroe would be singing.  That fact is why she found an excuse not to go.

Fact, the photo of the three of them was only released in 2010 by  Cecil Stoughton.  Perhaps there are more somewhere or can you tell us definitely there are not?   Hint, the answer is below so you might want to cheat.
Let me be clear, I do not believe the Kennedy’s had anything to do with her murder.  But since this is a forum where everyone casts speculative stones at good people and governmental agencies, maybe everyone should read this interesting article https://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/06/01/marilyn.monroe.birthday.photo/index.html

 

Interesting quote about Jackie's reaction...

I envision a later conversation with Bobby going something like this:

"That ***** has made a fool out of me in front of the entire country!  And what is worse, now Jack's secrets could out in the public eye!  That could cost us the election in 64!  Can't you do anything about this?"

[Michael Griffith]

On 10/17/2023 at 1:57 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Mike:

You know between your comments on the Prouty thread and now this, I really do not know what to make of you on this forum.

You started this dumb thread in the first place with its ridiculous heading.  You then abandon it and then you come back and you apparently do not read what was written in between.

There is evidence for one encounter between JFK and MM.  Period.

There is no evidence at all between RFK and MM.  That is simply balderdash.

Nothing at all happened at the night in question at MSG, and I have proved this with first hand evidence. 

FInally, RFK had no romantic entanglement with MM and had nothing to do with her demise.  Over and out.  And this is also provable with all kinds of evidence.  And any rumors about that did not occur in print until 1964, after JFK was killed.  So you should just stop this innuendo with that Mark Shaw type of overtone you have as a heading on this thread.  It is truly nutty. As it smears three people.

MM died of barbiturate poisoning which had been ingested, not injected.  And not taken by enema or suppository.  And that is also proven.  The question then becomes: was it deliberate or was it accidental?  One can make an argument for both sides on that one.  But if someone takes well over seven hundred pills in 50 days, and a bottle of Nembutals in 36 hours, I mean that is pretty much asking for trouble. Try and buy Nembutals on the open market today.

You have not "proved" anything. 

I notice you avoided the question about whether or not you acknowledge that JFK was a serial adulterer. Were you the one who told a newcomer that all the stories about JFK's serial adultery were just slanderous lies?

You call the thread "dumb" and its heading "ridiculous" because you are unwilling to objectively consider the evidence that RFK was involved in Marilyn's murder and that JFK appears to have acted as an accessory after the fact. The thread's title is actually a serious question that deserves thoughtful consideration, but you won't even discuss the matter because you refuse to even consider the possibility that RFK played a role in Marilyn's death.

I don't know why you are puzzled by my comments in the Prouty thread. I've discussed part of the mountain of evidence that Prouty was a fraud and a crackpot, and I've done so because his bogus claims have done great damage to the case for conspiracy (and yet there are researchers who, incredibly enough, still cite and quote him, and you are one of them). 

As a Prouty believer, and given the abject howlers that you've posted in our Vietnam discussions, you are in no position to be using terms like "nutty" to describe the credible claim that RFK and Marilyn had an affair. Even Summers admits RFK was at her house the day she died. Gee, what was he doing there??? Oh, that's right, you won't even admit he was there--you buy the fable that he was in Gilroy, never mind that several sources independently said he was at her house that day.

The suicide/accidental OD explanation is a disgraceful joke. You brush aside all the evidence of foul play because that evidence contradicts your unrealistic, ahistorical view of the Kennedy brothers. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[James DiEugenio]

Every once in awhile I make a mistake and look at a Griffith post. 

Yes Mike, I think the title of this thread is loony.  Its Mark Shaw BS, and Shaw has become a sideshow who has nothing to do with solving the JFK case today.

RFK was not in Brentwood, or close to Brentwood, that day. And the group pictures in Sue Bernard's book prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. (pp. 186-87)

MM passed on by the process of ingestion not injection. Dr. Boyd Stephens of SF who was hired to do a review wrote that "The person metabolized the Nembutal in a manner consistent with oral ingestion of a large quantity of pills, and further that the metabolic process had reached the stage where much of the toxic material had already reached the liver and was in the process of at least beginning the excretion process."  (McGovern, pp. 494-95)

After reviewing his work,  attorney Ron Carroll agreed with Stephens.  Namely that an injection would have produced a much higher blood level of the barbiturate, and a much faster death, without the evidence of the extended metabolic process which allows  for the liver to absorb the toxic substance. (ibid, p. 495)

This is what is usually called hard evidence or core evidence.  The only real question about her death is: was it an accidental overdose?

 

 

 

[Michael Griffith]

18 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Every once in awhile I make a mistake and look at a Griffith post. 

Yes Mike, I think the title of this thread is loony.  Its Mark Shaw BS, and Shaw has become a sideshow who has nothing to do with solving the JFK case today.

RFK was not in Brentwood, or close to Brentwood, that day. And the group pictures in Sue Bernard's book prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. (pp. 186-87)

MM passed on by the process of ingestion not injection. Dr. Boyd Stephens of SF who was hired to do a review wrote that "The person metabolized the Nembutal in a manner consistent with oral ingestion of a large quantity of pills, and further that the metabolic process had reached the stage where much of the toxic material had already reached the liver and was in the process of at least beginning the excretion process."  (McGovern, pp. 494-95)

After reviewing his work,  attorney Ron Carroll agreed with Stephens.  Namely that an injection would have produced a much higher blood level of the barbiturate, and a much faster death, without the evidence of the extended metabolic process which allows  for the liver to absorb the toxic substance. (ibid, p. 495)

This is what is usually called hard evidence or core evidence.  The only real question about her death is: was it an accidental overdose?

One, until you stop defending Fletcher Prouty, you are in no position to be calling anything loony or nutty. Defending Prouty is as bad and inexcusable as defending Alex Jones or James Fetzer. 

Two, I notice that you are still ducking the issue of acknowledging JFK's serial adultery. Why is that? No serious, credible JFK researcher denies that he was a flagrant adulterer. Why do you keep refusing to acknowledge this fact? Because you don't want people to realize just how far out on the fringe you are when it comes to the Kennedys?

Three, I know you're going to just keep repeating the suicide/OD story, but you still have not laid a finger on the problems with that story. 

Four, no, the group pictures do not "prove" that RFK was not at Marilyn's house on the day she died. Again, even Summers, who initially did not want to believe it, acknowledges that RFK was at her house that day. 

Five, don't you find it a bit embarrassing that David Von Pein totally agrees with you about Mike Rothmiller and the evidence presented in Rothmiller and Thompson's book?

[Sandy Larsen]

Mike,

Can you show me any proof that Kennedy was a serial adulterer? If you can't, then as far as I'm concerned that reputation is  probably based on a bunch of rumors.

 

[Cory Santos]

7 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mike,

Can you show me any proof that Kennedy was a serial adulterer? If you can't, then as far as I'm concerned that reputation is  probably based on a bunch of rumors.

 

Sandy, with respect, in just looking at these posts over the years, no proof is enough for anyone on this forum on any issue once that person has made his/her mind.