Did the Plotters View RFK's Murder of Marilyn Monroe as Justification for Killing JFK?

[Paul Brancato]

Michael Griffith - you weigh the words of LA detectives, biographers of Hollywood stars, what have you, against the word of two entire families vacationing in Gilroy, including RFK’s own family. I’ve read your material, and also McGovern’s. There is no comparison. The only conclusion one can draw is that Rothmiller and the rest of them are lying. You can’t possibly believe any of the Kennedy bashing you do here regularly. In my view what you’ve said regarding Jim D is far worse than name calling. Yet you persist, and the moderators allow it. 

[James DiEugenio]

SL: 

But what we can do is to choose carefully whose judgements we do trust and follow those individuals. I've found that Jim D. is one of those people for me. I've seen him post only a few small things I disagree with him on.

(I've said this before, but lucky for me Jim has the ear of a very influential WC critic.)

Thanks Sandy, and I think I know who you mean. 😀

 

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Paul.

In tracing that whole MM case, it became a sensationalistic industry  in the mid seventies.  And there was probably no person more responsible for that than Slatzer.  He literally made up this story about him being married to MM, which was complete and utter BS. In fact he promised to pay a friend of his if he would lie for him about it  to Summers. Well, the guy lied, Summers bought it, but Slatzer welched on the deal.  Did not pay him. So the guy then told the truth: that Slatzer made up a cock and bull story in order to sell his book. In  his volume, Murder Orthodoxies, McGovern spent 20 pages utterly dismantling that piece of rubbish story. (pp. 48-68)

And I have to add that as bad as Mailer's book was, Slatzer's was even worse.  His book really broke the dam, and once it was out there, and went through a mass market paperback sale, all bets were off.  Anything was now allowed.  And I mean anything. Even space aliens. And Bobby telling Marilyn about how he was involved in Murder Inc.  Which he was not.  In fact, its ridiculous.  But Slatzer printed that garbage.   Thus the gates flew open. It was open season now on MM.  She could be turned into anything you needed her to be: Mafia moll, UFOlogist, secret KGB spy, foreign policy expert for JFK.  I wish I was kidding but I'm not.

Slatzer ended up selling two films and two books out of his phony claims.  Which turned out to be lucrative for him.  Very bad for everyone else.  Especially. the memory of MM.  

 

[Paul Brancato]

Fwiw, I had just turned 14, and was visiting my grandmother in New Haven, the one and only time I did so, when the news of her death broke on tv. She was crying, and so I started to cry as well. The several days I spent with her stayed with me my whole life. She taught me to make sauce, and to love Liberace. And to appreciate Marilyn Monroe. 

[Cory Santos]

Just answer one question.  That is all I need to know if someone’s “research”on MM is accurate.   Did she have relations with Giancana?  Simple yes or no.  That is the starting point to any discussion about this matter.  

[Michael Crane]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:34 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Michael:

Don McGovern analyzes that claim about her death in his book and shows it has no credibility.

Don and Gary VItacco Robles, in his new book Icon, part 2 shows that her house was never bugged.  It was an old house that had been rewired by the phone company.

Wiretapper Bernie Spindel never mentioned MM in his 1968 book.  And in a letter to the LA DA's office about the subject--contrary to what Robert Slatzer claimed--the New York authorities said that they never discovered any MM tapes when they raided Spindel's home on illegal wiretapping charges.

 

 

Yeah,that's all I've got.I read it in the book Double Cross.

[Leslie Sharp]

@Michael Griffith It can be argued that there's justification for substituting the honey-pot operation involving East German femme fatale Ellen Rometsch in lieu of the alleged murder of Hollywood actress Marilyn Monroe as rationale for the assassination of JFK as Albarelli lays out in his investigation.  We argue that the Kennedy-Rometsch scandal with attendant international intrigue as opposed to domestic concerns over Kennedy's alleged moral turpitude is ignored at the expense of an accurate record of dynamics contributing to the decision to assassination JFK in Dallas.
 

Author Seymour Hersh, an equally respected investigative writer and newsman, broke ground in 1997 when he ventured into the implications of President Kennedy’s history with Ellen Rometsch in what has been to date perhaps the most controversial exposé among JFK afficionados, not because his reporting was inaccurate—it wasn’t, and indeed it was quite factual—but because it shattered many of the mythical features of Kennedy’s supposed finer qualities. Hersh, renowned for a slew of CIA exposés, delivered a devastating account of Rometsch’s Washington activities in his book, The Dark Side of Camelot. 

Some reaction to Hersh’s deep and thorough digging into the Rometsch case has been fiercely oppositional, yet nobody has been able to prove that his evidence and accounts are wrong or fabricated in any way. Oddly, it is not his evidence that is called into question, but instead the fact that he had the audacity to publish it that is faulted. It is important for the authors of this book to repeat here that they take no pleasure or delight in writing about JFK’s sexual exploits. We believe strongly that despite JFK’s private life, he remains one of this nation’s finest presidents.

Hersh on Mollenhoff

Sy Hersh notes that Clark Mollenhoff’s reporting included reference to Delaware Senator Williams’ access to an account of Rometsch’s life in D.C. over a period of more than two years, and that having been born in East Germany, she still had relatives on “the other side of the iron curtain.” Mollenhoff had added, either parenthetically or based on information provided him by his sources within the government, “The possibility that her activity might be connected with espionage is of some concern for security investigators because of the high rank of her male companions.” Thus, Mollenhoff revealed to the public that in July, the FBI had started investigating the possibility that Ellen was a Soviet spy, and that “with less than a week’s notice, she and her husband were sent back to Germany . . . at the request of the State Department.” 

Hersh observes that Mollenhoff, who had covered labor corruption during the 1950s, had been an enthusiastic supporter of Bobby Kennedy’s work as general counsel of the Senate Rackets Committee. Writes Hersh, “The two men had grown apart—the specifics of their dispute could not be learned for this book—and the increasingly conservative[emphasis added] Mollenhoff begun to write extensively, and critically, of the Kennedy administration’s decision in late 1962 to bypass Boeing and award the TFX contract to General Dynamics. Writes Hersh, Mollenhoff’s reporting “was taken most seriously by Bobby Kennedy.”

Indeed, reporter Mollenhoff’s conservative leaning was apparent in public settings when in October of 1962 when he participated on a panel, “Washington Cover-Up” at Georgetown University alongside the president of the Ukraine Congress Committee of America (UCCA) and Georgetown economics professor Lev Dobriansky, evidenced in a photo in The Ukraine Weekly, and in ensuing years, Mollenhoff was not shy about his commitment to anti-communism. A brief mention in an article dated Saturday, April 20, 1974 in The Ukraine Weekly, under the headline, “Anti-communist League Holds 7th Conference In Washington,” provides a window into his public support of the World Anti-communist League (WACL). 

Hosted in D.C. by the American Council for World Freedom (ACWF), the conference boasted some twenty-five speakers, representing both free nations and countries under Communist suppression, including autocrat General Anastazio Somoza of Nicaragua and the Hon. Yaroslav Stetzko, former Prime Minister of Ukraine and head of the Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations (ABN) since its inception as well as leader of the Organization of Ukranian Nationalists (OUN). The US affiliate of the Stetzko’s ABN, The American Friends of Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations is infamous among Kennedy researchers for its leading member, Spas Raikin who traveled from Ohio to Hoboken, NJ to meet Lee Harvey Oswald and his Russian wife Marina as they arrived from the USSR. 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[James DiEugenio]

3 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Just answer one question.  That is all I need to know if someone’s “research”on MM is accurate.   Did she have relations with Giancana?  Simple yes or no.  That is the starting point to any discussion about this matter.  

Are you saying a personal or sexual relationship?  Or a business one.  You did not specify which.

And why are you putting the word  research in quotes?

If anything should be placed in quotes, its that piece of drivel Double Cross.

The reason I say this is simple: authors like McGovern and VItacco-Robles have spent years and thousands of hours working on both MM's life and her passing.  And they have done original research.  That is they have interviewed many, many people.  Why should you belittle that effort?

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Tom Gram]

6 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Michael Griffith - you weigh the words of LA detectives, biographers of Hollywood stars, what have you, against the word of two entire families vacationing in Gilroy, including RFK’s own family. I’ve read your material, and also McGovern’s. There is no comparison. The only conclusion one can draw is that Rothmiller and the rest of them are lying. You can’t possibly believe any of the Kennedy bashing you do here regularly. In my view what you’ve said regarding Jim D is far worse than name calling. Yet you persist, and the moderators allow it. 

This. Mike has thrown around a lot of invective and ad hominem nonsense without offering a single item of credible evidence to challenge McGovern’s almost comically thorough debunking of Rothmiller’s ludicrous claims.

I still can’t get over Rothmiller’s alleged “transcriptions” of the Slatzer-invented “little red diary”. You’d have to be a gullible fool to believe in such obviously fake bs. If Rothmiller fabricated the “transcriptions”, which he did, the only reasonable conclusion is that he’s lying. His other easily debunkable drivel like the alleged RFK trip to LA and tabloid quality hearsay “evidence” is just a bonus.  

[Cory Santos]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Are you saying a personal or sexual relationship?  Or a business one.  You did not specify which.

And why are you putting the word  research in quotes?

If anything should be placed in quotes, its that piece of drivel Double Cross.

The reason I say this is simple: authors like McGovern and VItacco-Robles have spent years and thousands of hours working on both MM's life and her passing.  And they have done original research.  That is they have interviewed many, many people.  Why should you belittle that effort?

 

Did she have any type of relationship with him.  If so, specify.  That tells me all I need to know.  I never brought up that book nor did I belittle anyone.   People can think what they want, even if they are wrong.  So my question stands.  I ask this to anyone claiming to know what happened with MM.  Though reading books is nice for some, I do not base my thoughts regarding her on books.   I have my reasons.   

[James DiEugenio]

OK Cory, let me call you on this then.

What are your reason for thinking she did?

 

[Cory Santos]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

OK Cory, let me call you on this then.

What are your reason for thinking she did?

 

Jim I respect you but….. I asked an open question to anyone.   I don’t discuss this topic if they can’t get past this first question.  It is like debating with someone who thinks the earth is flat or we never went to the moon.  I don’t go there.   

[Adam Johnson]

Again i say,

Why has no one tried to confirm Rothmiller's statements regarding files, tapes and photographs with other former members who worked between 1962 and 1983 as part of LAPD's OCID.

We cannot confirm or totally refute Peter Lawfords statements to Rothmiller because only the two of them truly know what was said.

As a side point regarding the Gilroy ranch, photographs, time frames and statements:

The Kennedy’s arrived late friday afternoon in San Fran and went to the ranch, stayed Saturday and were back in San Fran Sunday afternoon around 4 or 5pm where they stayed overnight because RFK had to deliver a speech Monday morning...

So here's the thing i find odd...in all the statements made by the Gilroy ranch owners and their staff, they only describe what happened Friday and Saturday...all 10 photographs found are said to be from Saturday's activities alone...horse riding, poolside fun, game of touch football,  breakfast Saturday is spoken about and the private dinner for the adults Saturday night....

Not one person mentions anything about Sunday activities except the Kennedy’s left the ranch and arrived back in San Francisco around 4 or 5pm.

No mention of breakfast or bbq lunches,  no hiking or card/board games played with kids...nothing zip nada.

What if the horse riding took place Saturday morning,  but the swimming and Football activities took place Sunday. RFK has brown leather shoes horse riding, but black leather shoes in the family shot prior to or after the football game.

If RFK left around 11am Saturday and returned early am Sunday morning (away 13-14hours) its still possible all the activities the Gilroys claim happened could still have taken place....they just took place friday night, Saturday morning and Sunday morning thru until 3pm.

I dont believe RFK murdered MM, but i do believe the possibility of him telling his wife and family he had to go to an unforeseen meeting and problem solve an issue that had come up and he would be back later Saturday night is entirely possible. 

Where he went and when, only photos or recorded bugged conversations in MM's house could confirm his presence. Only OCID files or tapes if in existence can give us proof.

The only other things we have are lawfords supposed statements and the police officer who said he saw RFK in a car in LA around midnight(why would he lie?).

Cory- re: MM and Giancana 

Obviously no photographs exist of the two together,  only thing that connects them is Frank Sinatra and the only thing i can see that may present an opportunity for MM and Giancana to interact in private is the Cal Neva Lodge. Perhaps they met there in the final 12 months or so of marilyn's life. We know she was there one weekend 3, 4 or 5 weeks before she died.

A.J

Edited September 22, 2023 by Adam Johnson
Spelling

[James DiEugenio]

Adam:

You likely do not know this.  But the DA's office conducted a year long inquiry into these matters, including the charges made by people like Slatzer and Jeanne Carmen.  Very similar to what Rothmiller comes up with more recently.

DA Ronald Carrol wrote a 641 page report which refuted them specifically and in detail.  The MM nuts only mention a 27 page report.  But that was  only the summary.  Gary VItacco Robles petitioned the office for the full report.  And he uses it in his book Icon. Which is how we know, in just one matter, that unlike Rothmiller states, that neither LAPD nor FBI , or Spindel taped her house.

I would think 641 pages of inquiry would be enough to show that the mythological cum scatological stories produced by the likes of Slatzer and Speriglio were false.  Don't you?

I mean Don did a very good job taking apart Rothmiller's book on other crucial matters about where RFK was that day, and Rothmiller's false depiction on the specific cause of death.  One thing Don left out.  Lawford's confession to Rothmiller was his third one.  Yessiree. One to Heymann, which changed over time--after Lawford died-- and another to his former wife, Patricia Seaton who he was married  to for four months.

Here is the zinger.  The confessions are all different.  LOL.🙃

And I hope you noticed the diary entries are different between Rothmiller and Grandison. And when see her actual journal writing? Completely different.

How can this be--different confessions, different diaries.  I think we know why.  Because RFK was never near Brentwood that day.   Don proves that with photos and testimony.  And the  pics were described many years before they first appeared also.

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Jim,

No i haven't read the DA's report refuting Slatzer's book or Carmen's and Speriglio's claims. Was the DA's 641 pages anything like the 26 volumn Warren Commission report? 

Until a few days ago i had never heard of Rothmiller or his books...the reports of RFK in LA the day MM died of course, the fact he was in Gilroy, yes. I had read/heard that Lawford claimed he had spoken too and seen MM the day she died and was guilt ridden over her death for many years afterwards. I had of course heard of LAPDs gangster squad but did not know officially it became OCID.

So for the past few days i started doing my own research and reading...firstly let me state i dont know if Rothmiller's peter lawford confession is truthful...i can confirm what he said OCID did in the 50's 60's 70's and early 80's is accurate. Other OCID current members in 1992 and former members in 1992 confirmed how the department operated..as Rothmiller said. Oh, and one of the department's former chiefs confirmed the existence of files on Hollywood celebrities and Entertainment Industry members. 

Heres a link to an article written by 2 LA Times reporters in 1992 confirming and naming other OCID  staff members that pretty much corroborate Rothmiller's statements...not statements about how MM died, but about how OCID operated and that they had a MM file.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-07-26-mn-5254-story.html

Rothmiller is also described by co workers as being in the top 10% of detectives at OCID. They even named the file room as "the SafeRoom" only a few members had keys and access.

These are independent corroborating statements confirming what Rothmiller has said in video interviews I've watched and statements written in book's attributed to him.

I've researched John Bates and his family owners of the Gilroy ranch outside San Fran, his friendship with JFK starting in 1945/6 in the navy then in the mid 50's working with senator John Kennedy was strong, you probably know in 61' JFK asked him to be Bobby's assistant AG in Washington. The Bates ranch and winery was up for sale in 2008 for $15 MILLION.

I dont doubt for a second Mr. Bates and his wife would have no problem making a covering statement for RFK if required. 

RFK could very easily have met a helicopter at numerous points 15 to 20 minutes drive from the Bates ranch, google map the ranch and mount madonna, the Bates ranch was 40 minutes south of San Fran....it was 308 miles drive from the ranch to Brentwood if your interested. Depending on what type of helicopter 2.5 hours to LA was very achievable even in 1962. 

It was very possible for him to go to LA and back in 6 or 7 hours.

Did he, we dont know. I dont know, But to say definitively he didn't is asking people to take a leap of faith because, we may get confirmation one day he did.

I've also learned it was reported the Kennedy’s went to a 9.30am Sunday church service in Gilroy,  no photographs located so far and no specific mention of RFK just the "Kennedy family" went to church. After that, nothing of the families activities or photos attributed to Sunday. 

Apparently OCID in the 80's and 90's incinerated old files, but some key ones were warehoused...whether the MM file still exists, we dont know...who knows maybe a future LA Chief of Police will release the file and its contents on the 100 anniversary of Marilyn's death and make fools of us all.

AJ