Did the Plotters View RFK's Murder of Marilyn Monroe as Justification for Killing JFK?

[James DiEugenio]

Adam:

To not read the Carrol report, yet to characterize it as the Warren Report, I mean give us a break.  That is just the kind of thing we are not supposed to do. To be frank, its a cheap shot.

Rothmiller's previous book has next to nothing to do with his book on MM.

The Kennedys attending church was in the papers up there. And you saw the pics of them leaving GIlroy.  And you read the FBI report about it.  And if you say Hoover was covering for RFK, I will throw up. So in other words, you have the testimony, the pictures and the FBI report and newspaper accounts. And BTW, Bates described the pictures before anyone saw them!

Now let us take a look at Rothmiller's story:

Bobby was in Brentwood not once, but twice that day!  How, with the contravening evidence?  Which as Don notes, Rothmiller all but ignores.  RFK was desperate for the diary, which did not exist.  Her actual journals--which included poems-- were discovered later in the Strasberg archives.  And when one compares them with what Rothmiller wrote,  things like "I'll never such another ---k."  "Nekita has to be stopped."  That should be enough to just throw Rothmiller's book up in the air or down a garbage disposal.  But there is also the fact that Rothmiller's confection differs from Grandison's.  

And Don's examination of the Rothmiller death scenario and how the autopsy evidence undermines it, that is simply fatal to his tall tale.  25 Nembutals in a mixed drink. And she stayed alive for hours after. Sure Mike.

But this is all nonsense anyway.  Neither RFK nor Lawford were there.  Unless you also  think  that in addition to three diaries (let us not forget Slatzer's), Lawford gave three different confessions. But for anyone to buy into David Heymann today--which is one of them-- after he has been exposed as a proven fraud, that is simply inexcusable.

The truth is, as VItacco Robles writes, that Lawford did not leave his house or his guests. And the guests corroborate that. And he was always plagued by guilt about it since he thought if he had gone over there and driven her over, what happened would not have happened.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Michael Griffith]

Here is an interesting interview with Doug Thompson about the book:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRjBkdAZsek

A few points about Marilyn's death:

-- Eunice Murray, Marilyn's housekeeper, confirmed to the BBC in 1985 that RFK was at Marilyn's house on the day of the murder.

-- Murray also admitted that she found Marilyn lying on the floor, not face-down on the bed.

-- Strangely, Murray disappeared soon after Marilyn's death, somehow came into money, and took an extended vacation in Europe, conveniently making her unavailable for questioning.

-- Marilyn's hairdresser, Sydney Guilaroff, said that late in the afternoon on the day of her death, Marilyn called him and told him that Bobby Kennedy had been at her house and that he had threatened her.

-- Marilyn’s body was found with her legs stretched out perfectly straight, which is extremely unusual for people who overdose on sedatives. 

-- It turns out that Pat Newcomb, Marilyn's publicist, was the Kennedys' and the FBI's spy in Marilyn's circle of friends. She regularly reported on Marilyn's statements and actions to them, though it is unclear if she shared the same amount of information with both parties.

-- Soon after Marilyn’s death, Newcomb went to, of all places, the Kennedy compound in Hyannisport, where she was photographed on a yacht with members of the Kennedy family, and then she, too, like housekeeper Murray, went to Europe on an extended vacation.

-- The first LAPD officer who, officially, arrived at the house said the scene clearly looked staged. He saw signs of liver mortis that proved her body had been moved. Marilyn's two doctors and housekeeper were acting suspiciously. Dr. Greenson flushed pills down the toilet. When the detective asked them why they had waited some four hours to report Marilyn's death, they offered the dubious tale that they had first called the Fox studio offices. For four hours? Why would two doctors waste four hours talking to studio executives instead of immediately calling the police?

BTW, in the book and in some of his interviews, Rothmiller discusses the CIA's penetration of the LAPD, including CIA penetration of the LAPD's OCID. In some of interviews, Rothmiller also discusses CIA corruption in the covert operation to arm anti-communist fighters in Nicaragua. Also, Rothmiller doesn't buy the official story about RFK's death. 

Again, Rothmiller is one of the good guys. His disclosures, though disturbing, shed important light on JFK and RFK, CIA operations, CIA penetration of a major police department, and how wiretapping and bugging were being used as weapons by intelligence agencies and the Mafia, among other issues. And his disclosures may very well give us a better understanding of the plotters' motives. The plotters could have just destroyed JFK and RFK by publicizing their serial adultery, but instead they chose to publicly execute JFK and RFK.

[James DiEugenio]

This is why I do not look at Mike's posts.  He never cross checks anything.

What he does not say is that Murray changed her story, and she did it more than once.  Her original story, which we should value, was that no one was there.  But under constant pressure from people like Slatzer, who was very instrumental in influencing witnesses, she changed her tune.  But as the evidence in GIlroy shows, this is false. And no she did not come into a lot of money.

As per the first detective on the scene, is Mike for real?  Don McGovern proved that Clemmons was not just a fabricator but he was indicted on libel charges and forced to leave LAPD. Don proved that everything Clemmons said about the scene was false. The lie about the washer dryer, thus making Murray into some kind of unwitting accomplice was really kind of sick. As was the lie about there being no glass in MM's bedroom and it being neat.  All complete BS.

OMG Pat Newcomb.  Pat Newcomb was a former student of Pierre Salinger.  She was heartbroken after MM's death since she left the house that day over an argument about whether or not MM should pose nude in Playboy.  She was against it. She thought MM should get away from that kind of thing. She was so broken up after her death that she left her job as a PR person and Salinger got her a position.  Newcomb was not any kind of informant since there was nothing to inform about while she was there. 

Don McGovern describes how MM was positioned on the bed by the first group of cops to arrive after Clemmons left.  And its not how Doug describes it. Doug Thompson is an amateur.  And his comments show it in spades.  Anyone who reads one book on the MM case and relies on it is simply not to be trusted.

As for Rothmiller, he has joined up in the MM mythology/scatology industry.  He tells us utterly nothing about JFK, RFK or MM.  What he does is create false smears of them, which people who do not know anything about the case think are credible.  When, in fact, that is the last thing they are. Its part and parcel of something I once called the posthumous assassination syndrome

Edited September 22, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Brancato]

It’s not enough to put Michael on ignore. He should not be allowed to post here. 

[Adam Johnson]

Trying to locate the DA Carroll 641 page report online Jim, any chance you may have a link? Im happy to read it!

All the diary/journal crap i dont believe for a second...

So far all I'm stating is:

1.  in 1962 LAPD OCID had a file on MM and they gathered intel anyway they could without fear of retribution..in 1962...not in the 80s or 90s but in 1962 no fear of legal retribution. Rothmiller claims this, others who worked for OCID have confirmed this and gone on record in interviews in the 80s and 90s confirming it.

So Rothmiller is not lying about a MM File, which he stated contained wire taps and voice recordings on tape and in transcript....which was standard for files of this nature at this time in the history of LAPD OCID.

2. It was possible for RFK to leave Gilroy on Saturday from anytime after say 10:30am/ 11am and be away until 3am Sunday morning. This doesn't mean he was gone the whole time...this is his window of opportunity.....according to Bates family they (4 adults)  finished dinner and went separate ways at 9.30pm Saturday nite, they then dont see RFK until going to mass at 9:00am Sunday morning. The Bates ranch has 3 separate 3 bedroom homes on it as well as a 3 bedroom ranch forman's house. I dont think the Kennedy’s and Bates families all slept in one 3 bedroom home that night.....i also believe if asked they would say the Kennedy’s and Robert never left even if Robert did under some false pretence. 

Happy to read more and have my current no.2 point change 

My jibe at the carroll/warren reports was because you have another fox investigating the hen house situation...20 years later the LA district attorneys say the LA officials investigating MMs death did everything right and came up with the right conclusion just like the warren commission did in 1964. I look forward to reading the Carroll report. 

A.J

 

[Cory Santos]

Still waiting.  Anyone can answer.   Did MM have any relationship with Giancana?   If so, specify the nature of the relationship(s).   If no then say so.

I would add, were any agencies of the US Government conducting surveillance of any kind  and/or wiretapping of MM from any points between 1954 to 1962? If yes specify.  

[James DiEugenio]

Cory,

We are waiting for you.  You want to forget about that fine. Let us forget about it.

Adam, to be frank, I do not not what you are trying to say.

I have answered these questions.  So has Don McGovern. You are wrong on both points.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Jim,

What I'm on about is...... Rothmiller who you seem to give zero credibility to any of his statements is not lying about having access to an OCID file on MM. He's not lying about the methods OCID used in the 50's 60's and 70's to gather information on people. So when he mentions, transcripts and actually tape recordings in the MM file, 2+2 = 4. 

Now you, or i cannot confirm, varify or debunk what Rothmiller says was on those documents and tapes because we didnt see or hear them...and neither did Don Mcgovern......all we can do is pick at Rothmiller's statements. 

You dont believe  RFK could of left Gilroy on that Saturday...i believe he could of easily...3 military bases located less than 45 minutes from Gilroy and its surrounding suburbs could have supplied RFK with transport to and from LA. 

You mention John Bates claiming rfk hadnt left and photographs were taken of our Friday and Saturday activities on the ranch.......was john bates asked this on Sunday August 5th 1962.......No, he was asked months later then years later.  No chance he could of prepared for that.

I've spent 24 hours on the internet searching for John Carroll's reort or even the 30 page summary.....cant find it anywhere .

 

Did you read this 1992 LA Times article????? Shoots holes in your Rothmiller is a 100% xxxx mindset.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-07-26-mn-5254-story.html

 

A.J

Edited September 23, 2023 by Adam Johnson

[James DiEugenio]

If you buy into those Rothmiller transcriptions about MM's diary, then you and I, and most others on this thread, have a big difference of what constitutes evidence and how to judge the credibility of an author.

How many different ways does one have to show that Rothmiller is full of it? You just ignore all that.  25 Nembutals and MM stayed alive for hours after? Did you skip how Don McGovern demolished the Rothmiller story about MM and JFK having dinner during the second night of the 1960 Democratic Convention, when in fact she was not even in California!

BTW here is a quote about that internal inquiry by OCID: "As with Capell, this lunacy was generally disregarded. But it also generated an internal investigation within the Los Angeles Police Department. Eventually, the department’s Organized Crime Investigation Division prepared a point-by-point refutation of Scaduto’s story, based on meticulous documentation and new interviews with Peter Lawford and Medical Examiner Thomas Noguchi. In an uncharacteristic literary smirk, the report turned a line from Scaduto against him: “The evidence is as thin as Depression-food-line soup.”

Then you link to his older book.  This is not about that book.  

 As many prosecutors have said, they dream about a motion picture case e.g. RFK being in Gilroy.  Well, the testimony of ten people, a series of pictures, and an FBI report, that is the kind of evidence they dream of. Your attempt to cast aspersions on John Bates and his family is, I think, unwarranted and underhanded.

Oh yes, if somehow you cannot find either of the Carroll reports online, abracadabra, they do not exist.  Is that what you are trying to say? Even though authors have read them and quoted from them?

Please Adam. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Adam Johnson]

Jim,

I'm not saying the Carroll report doesn't exist...I'm asking for help to locate it online so i can read it!

I dont believe any MM diary exists. To many people close to her said she didnt have one.

I'm not saying i believe Rothmiller's description of what Peter Lawford told him happened. 

Who the hell is Scaduto?

If you dont have friends who will cover for you sometime, why have friends...I'm saying its 100% possible Bates and his Wife could have lied...did they lie? I dont know...but if an OCID tape ever turns up or a transcript of a Saturday conversation at fifth helena with RFK in it...they goddam 100% lied.  And you cannot be 100% certain they did not lie, just as i cannot be 100% certain they did, yet.

Now a 1980's ocid chief says they had a MM file, he also says many files from the 60's 70's were incinerated in the 80's by his hand... he also says some main/special files were saved and stored. 

Who wants to bet a $1 that the MM file comes under the ocid category of special?

Has anyone debunked the LAPD Officer who pulled over Peter Lawfords car that Saturday night who said he saw RFK in the vehicle around midnight.

Regards

A.J

[James DiEugenio]

Adam:

Scaduto wrote an article about MM and her death that got in a national magazine, I think Oui, and then he turned it into a book.  

Suggesting John Bates as a fabricator, when he was actually a pillar of the community, someone who you have never investigated or did any research on, while ignoring all the corroborating evidence that supports him?  I mean, whew.

So sixty years in and you are still waiting for a tape?  When, in fact, they went through Bernie Spindel's tapes already and nothing showed up. How many people had MM's house wired?  When in fact there was never any affair between her and RFK in the first place. To paraphrase from Don McGovern's upcoming article at K and K: there is not and has never been any credible evidence of any such affair.  In fact the actual evidence says there was no such episode.  This from a guy who has spent years researching the subject.

And yes, Don McGovern did debunk Franklin.

I think this will be it for me Adam.  You are just thrashing about.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Pamela Brown]

On 9/19/2023 at 12:23 PM, Joe Bauer said:

True.

It is very hard to even imagine RFK ordering the murder of another individual.

Now...LBJ?

Mac...this Henry Marshall fellow?

Make it look like a suicide...okay?

RFK was known as ruthless when he was alive. 

It seems he would do anything to keep himself viable as a candidate for the presidency.  I think this is why he was behind the gutting of the Garrison investigation, for example.  He may also have had connections to Lee Oswald in Mexico City, and this may be why so many documents are still withheld. 

There also seems to be some sort of shield around him comprised of those who do not want these issues discussed and instead want his image 'protected'... 

I wouldn't put anything past him...

[Michael Griffith]

Here is a free five-minute sample of the audio book of Bombshell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr5X7bnJKvA

A few points to keep in mind:

-- We actually have the notes that Rothmiller wrote while he was reading Marilyn's diary. Portions are reprinted in Rothmiller and Thompson's book. Some of the notes are on the back LAPD documents. When Rothmiller was able to quote the diary, i.e., to write down verbatim what he was reading in the diary, he did so. When he could not do so, he would write down what he had read as soon as possible after he had read it.

-- Rothmiller used Otash as an informant. He interviewed Otash before deciding to use him as an informant.

-- When Rothmiller interviewed Otash, Otash told him what he heard on the surveillance recordings from Marilyn and Lawford's houses. The account that Otash gave to Rothmiller of what he heard on the tapes closely resembles the account that Lawford gave to Rothmiller when he confessed to Rothmiller in 1982. 

-- Thompson was able to confirm many parts of Rothmiller's story by interviewing former LAPD officials and other sources.

-- About 10 years ago, 11 boxes that Otash had kept in a storage unit were made available by Otash's daughter for review by The Hollywood Reporter. Notes found in the boxes include an account that confirms that RFK was in Marilyn's home on the day she died and that Bobby and Marilyn had a fierce argument. Here is a news account of the release of the boxes:

          Eleven boxes of recently uncovered documents and notes expose, among previously mentioned scandals, a confrontation between Robert F. Kennedy, JFK’s brother-in-law Peter Lawford, and Monroe on the day Monroe died. Otash’s daughter Colleen gave these boxes to The Hollywood Reporter in hopes that the distorted interpretations of her father’s life would be righted.

          Otash’s notes also detail his time spent as contracted security for actress Judy Garland in which he discovered caches of drugs in her homestead. (https://www.sacurrent.com/arts/fred-otashs-noir-sex-murder-and-hollywood-confessions-2253889)

-- Otash's notes found in the boxes also confirm that he installed listening devices in Marilyn's home and in Lawford's home, and that he heard JFK and Marilyn engaging in sexual activity. On a side note, the Otash materials include a transcript of Rock Hudson's wie confronting him over being a homosexual.

-- According to Otash, and according to what Rothmiller saw in OCID files, Bobby called JFK at least once on the day Marilyn died, and JFK asked Bobby to call him back after he met with Marilyn. Thus, it is entirely possible that JFk was aware of Bobby's role in Marilyn's death.

Finally, the disclosures about Bobby's role in Marilyn's death do not automatically prove that Bobby and JFK were cold-blooded murderers. This is not to excuse what Bobby did, but it is fair point out that Marilyn was going to not only reveal her affairs with the two brothers but was also going to reveal national security secrets that they had (recklessly) shared with her. She was going to reveal, for example, JFK's desire and intent to assassinate Castro. This revelation alone would have had created an international firestorm. 

Two other people who claim they heard the Otash tapes of Bobby and Marilyn's confrontations that day claim that Bobby pointed out to Marilyn that he and JFK had to stop seeing her because they feared what J. Edgar Hoover would do, that seeing her again could be dangerous for him and JFK. But Marilyn did not care about any of this. 

Marilyn, understandably, felt used and exploited, like she'd been passed around as a toy and was now being cast aside. She also felt betrayed because Bobby had told her that he was going to divorce his wife and marry Marilyn. 

But surely Marilyn should have known that it was an understood unwritten rule that if you were going to play around with powerful people, you would keep this activity to yourself and would never reveal it as long as it could harm any of those people.  

Again, this is not to excuse what Bobby did and JFK's possible foreknowledge and possible role as an accomplice after the fact. Bobby should have been prosecuted for his role in Marilyn's death, and he should have spent at least 10 years in jail for it. And if JFK did in fact have foreknowledge and/or act as an accomplice after the fact, he should have been prosecuted and spent a few years, perhaps five years, in jail.

[Pamela Brown]

On 9/19/2023 at 1:28 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Oh no, now Mike has descended into the whole Marilyn Monroe cesspool?

Peter Lawford never said any such thing.  In fact, he said the opposite to the authorities.

Rothmiller's book has been destroyed piece by piece by the best guy in the field, Don McGovern.

Monroe took her own life, either willfully or by accident.  And Bobby Kennedy was never in Brentwood that day or night and that is provable.

Mark Shaw is another of these gaseous blowhards who preaches this rubbish.  Don and I will have a decimating review on his public talk in Allen Texas soon.

And I am prepping a long, intricate overview of this whole morass titled, "Joyce Carol Oates, Brad Pitt and the Road to Blonde."

With all due respect, I disagree. I do not think Marilyn took her own life. 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:12 AM, Pamela Brown said:

RFK was known as ruthless when he was alive. ....

I wouldn't put anything past him...

 

According to this PBS article:

"Passionate," "intense," "tough," and above all, "ruthless." These were some of the words used to describe Robert Kennedy. 

Kennedy's tough-guy reputation emerged from a career of battles. He waged moral crusades against dangers including foreign enemies (communism, Fidel Castro, the U.S.S.R.); domestic adversaries (corrupt unions, the Mafia); specific people (Jimmy Hoffa, "Big Steel" bosses); and abstract concepts (racism, poverty). One of his biggest enemies, Lyndon Johnson, was technically on his side, a fellow Democrat.

Yeah, sure sounds like a guy willing to commit murder for selfish reasons.