Oswald as designated patsy; from Bart Kamp's new book

[James DiEugenio]

There is no way you can forgive the Katzenbach memo.

Bobby Kennedy made him by having him as his point man at Ole Miss and Alabama, got him international exposure.

Then after Ruby kills Oswald on TV, he writes that memo which echoes Hoover?

It essentially closed the case by saying this would be a PR exercise and not a vigorous, imaginative inquiry.

He then more or less backed the war. And later became a corporate lawyer.

If you do not recall how bad this was, here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Katzenbach_Memo.html

Edited October 3, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Sandy Larsen]

What Katzenbach did had nothing to do with being disloyal to the Kennedys. It had everything to do with preventing the public from demanding retribution against Cuba or Russia. He apparently thought it was better for one dead man to be blamed for the assassination than to have calls for war.

Katzenbach basically foiled the CIA's plot.

BTW, here is what Katzenbach's said about his memo:

"Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat--too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced."

 

[Sandy Larsen]

42 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

There is no way you can forgive the Katzenbach memo.

Bobby Kennedy made him by having him as his point man at Ole Miss and Alabama, got him international exposure.

 

So you think Katzenbach was out to get the Kennedy's, Jim? What do you suppose his motivation was for that?

He was also out to get Oswald then. So he was just an anti-Kennedy, anti-Oswald kind of guy.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Sandy:

That memo blames Oswald for killing JFK, and its Oswald alone.

Katzenbach then starts pushing for an FBI inquiry when he knows what Hoover is doing already.

Now, its bad enough to blame LHO for the murder of JFK without any real investigation of either the evidence or Oswald. 

But to do this with what happened with Ruby's murder of Oswald ringing in your ears? 

The Katzenbach memo was really a kind of a brief outline for the WC. Blame Oswald and no conspiracy. Of any kind.

And yes, I think Katzenbach's subsequent performance, in more ways than one,  does not speak well for him. DId you see him in John Barbour's film?

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Sandy:

That memo blames Oswald for killing JFK, and its Oswald alone.

It was a done deal Friday night when LBJ ordered Cliff Carter to call the Texas authorities and order them to drop the conspiracy angle.

Why would we expect Katzenbach to refuse to follow similar orders?

He said he was under pressure from the State Department.  The historical record shows Johnson under pressure from the State #3, Averell Harriman.

Those who either demonize or lionize Katzenbach have not processed those facts.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Sandy:

That memo blames Oswald for killing JFK, and its Oswald alone.

Katzenbach then starts pushing for an FBI inquiry when he knows what Hoover is doing already.

Now, its bad enough to blame LHO for the murder of JFK without any real investigation of either the evidence or Oswald. 

But to do this with what happened with Ruby's murder of Oswald ringing in your ears? 

The Katzenbach memo was really a kind of a brief outline for the WC. Blame Oswald and no conspiracy. Of any kind.

And yes, I think Katzenbach's subsequent performance, in more ways than one,  does not speak well for him. DId you see him in John Barbour's film?

 

Jim,

Yes, it was wrong to give Oswald unconditional blame to Oswald.

So why did Katzenbach do such a terrible thing?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

It was a done deal Friday night when LBJ ordered Cliff Carter to call the Texas authorities and order them to drop the conspiracy angle.

Why would we expect Katzenbach to refuse to follow similar orders?

He said he was under pressure from the State Department.  The historical record shows Johnson under pressure from the State #3, Averell Harriman.

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Those who either demonize or lionize Katzenbach have not processed those facts.

 

Thanks for the reminder, Cliff. I've been giving too much credit to Katzenbach. (And Jim has been giving him too much blame IMO.) He didn't put out his memo till after Oswald was dead. But Johnson was ordering people to forget about the conspiracy angle the night of the assassination. Right? Two days earlier.

And this was due to Harriman telling him that the top Kremlinologists were saying that Russia was not involved.

I need to give Harriman credit for thwarting the CIA's plot.

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Thanks for the reminder, Cliff. I've been giving too much credit to Katzenbach. (And Jim has been giving him too much blame IMO.) He didn't put out his memo till after Oswald was dead. But Johnson was ordering people to forget about the conspiracy angle the night of the assassination. Right? Two days earlier.

And this was due to Harriman telling him that the top Kremlinologists were saying that Russia was not involved.

I need to give Harriman credit for thwarting the CIA's plot.

 

I couldn’t agree more!  

In his WC testimony Rusk spoke of the urgency he felt on the flight back to DC to join the inquiry into possible foreign involvement.  By the time he got back the “inquiry” was already over — all on Harriman’s say so.

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Newman didn’t write this nonsense, you did.

Someone at the CIA told LBJ, "'Hoo-boy, look at this LHO-Kostikov meeting, we better put the lid on this, or its WWIII." 

Read John Newman's books. 

The above quote is a pithy, fair, quick summation of Newman's narrative, that the CIA planned the Kostikov-LHO meeting, and other elements linking LHO to Moscow-Havana, as the method to limit any investigation into the JFKA.

I don't see an effective State Department role in the snuffing out of the JFKA investigation.

Sometimes to justify an act, people will use an expedient excuse. Such as a real autopsy was not performed on JFK to save the Kennedy family from distress and so on. 

Sheesh, Jack Ruby said he shot LHO to save Mrs. Kennedy from a trial. 

Or other foreign powers need assurance we are not a banana republic, so we must find LHO acted alone, and it was not a banana-land coup. 

You may be barking up the wrong tree. 

Newman said the CIA planted the WWII virus. I suspect Newman is right. 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Read John Newman's books. 

The above quote is a pithy, fair, quick summation of Newman's narrative,

Quote Newman claiming someone from the CIA spoke with Johnson on 11/22/63.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

that the CIA planned the Kostikov-LHO meeting, and other elements linking LHO to Moscow-Havana, as the method to limit any investigation into the JFKA.

As opposed to linking LHO to the commies for the express purpose of blaming Castro as a pretext for invading Cuba?

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I don't see an effective State Department role in the snuffing out of the JFKA investigation.

Of course you don’t Ben, since the following doesn’t fit your pet theories.

Max Holland's The Assassination Tapes, pg 57:

<quote on>

At 6:55 p.m. Johnson has a ten minute meeting with Senator J. William Fulbright and diplomat W. Averell Harriman to discuss possible foreign involvement in the assassination, especially in light of the two-and-a-half-year sojourn of Lee Harvey Oswald [in Russia]...Harriman, a U.S. ambassador to Moscow during WWII, is an experienced interpreter of Soviet machinations and offers the president the unanimous view of the U.S. government's top Kremlinologists. None of them believe the Soviets have a hand in the assassination, despite the Oswald association. </q>

There was no meeting of “top Kremlinologists” — Harriman made that up to leverage the US foreign policy establishment in support of the Lone Nut scenario.

Katzenbach admitted he was under pressure from State.  Don’t you read Pat Speer’s posts?

[James DiEugenio]

The communist angle was due to Hoover and the information they got from CIA about LHO in Mexico City.

You can hear it on the tapes, except for the 14 1/2 minute gap.

Hoover then tells LBJ about the voice not being Oswald and the picture not being Oswald.

So they both had reason to doubt that story.

Both Hoover and LBJ decided to go with the lone sociopath angle.  As Peter Scott noted years ago,  this seemed to thwart the whole Cuba/Russia angle that the conspirators seemed to be gunning for.  John Newman took this angle further in this Oswald and the CIA volume.  

 

Here is an MSM version of what happened with Alexander and Carter. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/11/14/warren-commission-born-out-of-fear/4f621e1e-a49f-4ce8-ab92-a3e5296ac0b6/

Edited October 4, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

On the media side I thought it was Seth Kantor pointed to by Scripps Howard HQ in Washington or New York to Miami reporter (?).  Then an article from Florida or New Orleans by Anti Castro CIA funded supporters.  Also the record of Oswald's "debate" sent to Washington from New Orleans.  All initially supporting a Communist/Castro plot.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Both Hoover and LBJ decided to go with the lone sociopath angle. 

After Harriman and Bundy gave the marching orders.

Hoover was a reluctant lone nutter.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[James DiEugenio]

Yes, that is all accurate Ron.

The speed with which that debate got out in the open public is startling.

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, I should add that if Peter Scott is correct on this theory, then this argues for Johnson and Hoover not being part of the original conspiracy.

I should add, that this is a good aspect in Bart's book.

His book is, in large part, an hour by hour chronicle of the weekend of the assassination up to the murder of Oswald.

The book really shows how hard Hoover is pushing the Oswald did it angle.  Even with RFK, who of course, is not buying it.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by James DiEugenio