Connally, Dealy Plaza, Trade Mart

[Ron Bulman]

Memory of his insistence for the Dallas Trade Mart, which required the trip through Dealy Plaza had me baffled.  Where did I read that?  I finally remembered.  A source I wouldn't normally use for its conclusion, but still useful for some details.  Phillip Nelson, LBJ Mastermind of JFK's Assassination.  

From Wikipedia regarding 10/4/1963.

On the same day, Texas Governor John Connally met with President Kennedy to agree upon plans for President Kennedy's trip to Texas for fundraising events and motorcades in Houston, San Antonio, Fort Worth, Dallas and Austin on November 21 and 22, 1963.^[19] 

So, John Connally met with JFK seven weeks to the day before the assassination, to agree upon plans for . . . motorcades in . . . Dallas . . .

Why did he reportedly cry out "they're going to kill us all" when struck, after protesting being forced to ride in JFK's limo by him?

Somewhere I've read of JC lobbying for the Trademart for JFK's Dallas speech over the Womens Building at Fair Park/the state fair site.  To the point he refused to participate further if it wasn't.  Which precipitated the need for the turns onto Houston, then Elm.  I need to figure out where I read this.  It changes my perspective on something. 

Secret Service advance man Jerry Bruno "made the following entry in his journal, noting that the feud had become bitter by this point:  They decided to let the Governor have his way."  

Was he acting on LBJ's behalf, though neither (?) knew the consequences at the time?

 

[Sean Coleman]

 

methinks JB doth protest too much…

wasn’t he in the habit of doing & receiving favors?

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sean Coleman

[Jean Ceulemans]

IMO a typical powerplay in politics : my way or the highway (oops).

But - more often - in politics and business you only agree to something if you get something in return (rule number 1)

Edited October 19, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Pete Mellor]

12 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Why did he reportedly cry out "they're going to kill us all" when struck, after protesting being forced to ride in JFK's limo by him?

Wasn't the protest from LBJ in Kennedy's suite at the Hotel Texas on the morning of the 22nd because polecat Lyndon didn't want to ride with Yarborough?

When exactly did Connally protest?

[Ron Bulman]

4 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Wasn't the protest from LBJ in Kennedy's suite at the Hotel Texas on the morning of the 22nd because polecat Lyndon didn't want to ride with Yarborough?

When exactly did Connally protest?

Listen starting about 2:02-03.

 

[Ron Bulman]

If Bruno noted the feud had become bitter, and, was taken aback by Connally's intransigence, JC was acting on behalf of LBJ.  He was Lyndon's boy in Texas through and through. 

Which means to me LBJ knew something about the importance of the Trade Mart by at least 10/4/1963 when JC met with JFK about the trip, including motorcades.  He would have emphasized to JC the importance of the destination.  Thus, someone had emphasized it to him.  Someone who knew a motorcade had to pass down Elm.  

[Joe Bauer]

"After tomorrow those damn Kennedy's will never embarrass me again. That's no threat, that's a promise."

LBJ to his nineteen year long mistress Madeline Brown.

[Ron Bulman]

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

"After tomorrow those damn Kennedy's will never embarrass me again. That's no threat, that's a promise."

LBJ to his nineteen year long mistress Madeline Brown.

For some reason I thought this quote, less the threat and promise, came from his longtime black woman cook.  Maybe Mastermind, I'll look a little tomorrow, though it sill reaches the wrong conclusion.  LBJ was not the mastermind, he was used too. 

[Joe Bauer]

6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

For some reason I thought this quote, less the threat and promise, came from his longtime black woman cook.  Maybe Mastermind, I'll look a little tomorrow, though it sill reaches the wrong conclusion.  LBJ was not the mastermind, he was used too. 

I believe LBJ knew full well JFK was going to be taken out...ahead of time.

Nixon is on video tape making an ominous inference to LBJ having some part in the JFKA through the mask of an insider joke ...
"You know that Lyndon...he never liked to be number two."

I have also totally believed Murchison maid Mae Newman's story about the 11, 21, 1963 Murchison meet up where J. Edgar Hoover flew in and was picked up by Newman's fellow Murchison house staff employee Jules Feiffer ( spelling? )

Newman also mentioned the main Murchison family cook by name and recounted one-on-one conversations she had with both her and Feiffer concerning Hoover specifically, with Hoover's name ( and even Hoover's nickname "Bulldog"  clearly mentioned that evening. 

I also believe Newman's recounting of how the caviar and champagne flowed in the Murchison household for a week after JFK's slaughter. And how it seemed to her that she ( Newman ) was the only one grieving for JFK and his family during all that celebrating. Newman choked up a bit and her speech was halted and she glanced away for a second when she recounted the grief she alone felt for JFK. 

If Newman's story ( and her emotions while sharing it ) in that documentary interview were contrived, the woman missed her calling in the career department. She should have been in British theater. 

Newman's story and emotional demeanor in sharing it in the TMWKK interview comes across to me as one of the most sincere and honest and least contrived I have seen in this whole affair. 

 

[Gil Jesus]

On 10/19/2023 at 1:52 AM, Ron Bulman said:

Memory of his insistence for the Dallas Trade Mart, which required the trip through Dealy Plaza had me baffled.  Where did I read that?  I finally remembered.  A source I wouldn't normally use for its conclusion, but still useful for some details.  Phillip Nelson, LBJ Mastermind of JFK's Assassination.  

From Wikipedia regarding 10/4/1963.

On the same day, Texas Governor John Connally met with President Kennedy to agree upon plans for President Kennedy's trip to Texas for fundraising events and motorcades in Houston, San Antonio, Fort Worth, Dallas and Austin on November 21 and 22, 1963.^[19] 

So, John Connally met with JFK seven weeks to the day before the assassination, to agree upon plans for . . . motorcades in . . . Dallas . . .

Why did he reportedly cry out "they're going to kill us all" when struck, after protesting being forced to ride in JFK's limo by him?

Somewhere I've read of JC lobbying for the Trademart for JFK's Dallas speech over the Womens Building at Fair Park/the state fair site.  To the point he refused to participate further if it wasn't.  Which precipitated the need for the turns onto Houston, then Elm.  I need to figure out where I read this.  It changes my perspective on something. 

Secret Service advance man Jerry Bruno "made the following entry in his journal, noting that the feud had become bitter by this point:  They decided to let the Governor have his way."  

Was he acting on LBJ's behalf, though neither (?) knew the consequences at the time?

 

My October-November 1963 timeline. It is incomplete, but I would like to share it with the group anyway.

October 4, 1963: Governor Connally meets with President Kennedy at the White House. He later has dinner with Vice President Johnson. Oswald is back in Dallas and stays at the local YMCA while he looks for work.
 

October 10, 1963: The Constitution Party holds a meeting in Indianapolis at the Marott ( not Marriott ) Hotel to, "put an end to the Kennedy, Khrushchev and King dictatorship." William Somersett attends the meeting and tells the FBI that there was talk of killing President Kennedy by those in attendance.
 

October 15, 1963: Ruth Paine calls the Texas School Book Depository and arranges for a job interview for Oswald with building superintendent Roy Truly. Truly interviews Oswald later that day and hires him for $1.25 per hour as a temporary clerk filling customer book orders. Oswald starts work the following day.

The FBI office in New Orleans contacts an informant inside the US Communist Party for information regarding Oswald and his wife. ( 17 H 797 )
 

October 18, 1963: The Delaware State News declares, "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. His name right now happens to be Kennedy----let's shoot him, literally, before Christmas." ( Manchester, Death of a President, pg. 46 )
 

October 20, 1963: Kenneth O'Donnell, special assistant and appointments secretary to President Kennedy, calls Jerry Bruno, the advance man for the Kennedy trips, and asks him to come to the White House to discuss the trip to Texas.
 

October 21, 1963: Bruno meets with O'Donnell and is told to contact Walter Jenkins, one of Vice President Lyndon Johnson's top administrative assistants, to solicit his input for the trip.
 

October 24, 1963: Bruno meets with Jenkins, who tells Bruno about the stops that Governor Connally has suggested. The first stop would be San Antonio on November 21 and drive in a motorcade to Brooks Air Force Base, then fly to Houston and drive in a motorcade to the Rice Hotel, where the Albert Thomas dinner was originally scheduled to take place, and stay overnight at the hotel. Then on the morning of November 22, the president would fly to Fort Worth to receive an honorary degree at Texas Christian University at 9:30 a.m. and then ride in a motorcade for the short distance to Dallas, where he would attend a luncheon at the annual meeting of the Dallas Citizens Council at the Statler Hilton Hotel.  Finally, the President would attend a fundraising dinner in Austin before returning to Washington. 

United States ambassador to the United Nations Adlai Stevenson II delivers a contentious speech on United Nations Day at the Dallas Memorial Auditorium, where he is booed and heckled. After the speech, he is struck on the head with a picket sign and spit upon. Several people, including Stevenson, warned Kennedy against coming to Dallas, but Kennedy ignored their advice.

October 25-26, 1963: General Walker tells an audience in Jackson, Mississippi that, "it's interesting that the Communists killed first the people who helped them in their revolution", and suggests that because Kennedy had helped the Communist cause, the audience could expect the Communists to kill Kennedy. Walker is planting the seeds of a PSY-OP that will be the early "explanation" of the assassination of the President a month later.

October 29, 1963: Bruno meets with Henry Brown, president of the Texas AFL–CIO and a friend of Senator Ralph Yarborough, to obtain his input from labor leaders. He then has lunch with Governor Connally to review his itinerary.

The sharpest dissension is over the location of the Dallas luncheon. The Yarborough camp suggests that it be held in the Women’s Building, a massive exhibition hall on the state fairgrounds. Connally insists that it take place in the Grand Courtyard of the Dallas Trade Mart, a smaller venue, and that it be by invitation only. Bruno was taken aback by Connally’s intransigence about the location. The governor tells Bruno that Kennedy cannot come to Dallas unless the event is held at the Trade Mart. 
https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-culture/john-f-kennedy-place-setting/

In late October, 1963, David Christensen was an Air Force sergeant who was stationed at an RAF base in Kirknewton, Scotland. The base had a relationship with the CIA and was used by the CIA as a top-secret listening station. He intercepted a communication in late October 1963 that an assassination attempt would be made on Kennedy. 

October 30, 1963: Bruno and Johnson aide Clifton Carter visit the Texas cities that the president will visit. The San Antonio and Houston sites are checked and confirmed as acceptable, but when visiting Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, Bruno is informed by school officials that the university does not intend to confer an honorary degree to the president and that they have only approved the use of their campus as the location for a speech. Bruno informs Connally of this development, and Connally says that he will meet with the university's board of regents the next night. Bruno travels to Dallas to evaluate the ballroom at the Statler Hilton Hotel where the luncheon is planned to take place on November 22. He is met there by J. Erik Jonsson, chairman of the Dallas Citizens Council ( and an owner of Texas Instruments ) and Robert B. Cullum, chairman of the Dallas Chamber of Commerce and owner of the Tom Thumb Food Stores. Cullum informs Bruno that the ballroom at the Statler Hilton is now unavailable because organizers of a bottlers' convention had reserved it and would not surrender it.  Jonsson and Cullum suggest the Dallas Trade Mart, but after visiting the site, Bruno dislikes the many catwalks that would be above the president, which, in light of the Stevenson incident that had just occurred a few days earlier, could present a security problem. He asks to be shown other available sites in Dallas.

October 31, 1963: Bruno is informed that Governor Connally is unhappy with the decision not to use the Trade Mart for the luncheon because of the catwalk issue. Bruno agrees to visit the Trade Mart again but retains his misgivings. Connally telephones that he has met with the TCU board of regents and that they will not confer an honorary degree on the president. 

President Kennedy is asked at a press conference about rumors that Lyndon Johnson will not be selected as his running mate in the 1964 election, which Kennedy denies.

At the end of October, the Chicago Secret Service received an FBI teletype detailing a plot by four Cuban gunmen to kill Kennedy in Chicago with "high-powered rifles" during a motorcade. The President was scheduled to visit there on November 2nd to attend an Army-Navy football game. Two suspects were arrested and detained by the Secret Service in Chicago on November 1st. Two others escaped. The two that were arrested and detained were released shortly after their arrest.

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November 1, 1963: The Fort Worth visit is eventually resolved when the city's chamber of commerce agrees to sponsor a breakfast for the president. Because of this, the president's overnight stay is changed from Houston to Fort Worth so that he will have time to attend the breakfast.

That same day, Thomas Arthur Vallee, a vocal Kennedy critic and member of the John Birch Society, was arrested by the Secret Service in Chicago after a search of the vehicle he was driving revealed that he had an M-1 rifle, a handgun and three thousand rounds of ammunition. Vallee had asked his employer for the day of Kennedy's motorcade off. When arrested, he had been driving a car with New York plates, number 311-ORF. Kennedy's Chicago trip was cancelled, and Vallee was released on November 2nd. 

November 4, 1963: Robert Kennedy received a letter from Byron Skelton, a Democratic Committeeman from Texas, asking that Dallas be dropped from the President's itinerary because "they" would kill him there. Citing General Walker's pronouncement that Kennedy was a "liablility to the free world", Skelton believed that such a man was capable of doing the President harm, and observing the attitude in preparations for the President's trip, he simply felt that it was not safe to go there. Skelton felt so passionately about bypassing Dallas that he flew to Washington to plead his case.

White House Secret Service agent Winston Lawson is informed that he has been assigned to the Dallas visit.

Paul Rothermel, Head of Security for Hunt Oil, sends a memo to H.L. Hunt notifying him that the attempt to assassinate the President will be made during the motorcade, "there will be violence on the parade route taken by President of the United States John F. Kennedy", he writes. Rothermel also notifies the Dallas FBI and the Dallas Police of this threat. ( FBI file # 62-109060, Sec. 182, pg. 2 )

November 6-7, 1963: AWOL Pfc. Eugene Dinkin walks into the U.N. Press Office in Geneva, Switzerland and tells a stringer for Time-Life  that "they" were plotting against Kennedy and that "something" would happen in Texas. The information was forwarded to U.S. military authorities, the FBI and the CIA.

November 7, 1963: During the first week of November, Elizabeth Cole, President of the International Students Club at Hunter College, attended a Foreign Students Convention at Rutgers University in New Jersey. She claims to have overheard a Spanish speaking Cuban student talking on the phone describing the assassination of President Kennedy. According to Cole, the Cuban student mentioned the city of Dallas, a book publishing company and a "high government official" who would protect those involved. Cole claimed to have reported the incident to the FBI the next day during a phone call witnessed by her mother, but the Bureau said it had no record of her call. ( FBI file # 62-109060, Sec. 178, pgs. 49-59 )

November 9, 1963: Miami Police informant Willie Somerset recorded a breakfast meeting with his friend Joseph Milteer, who outlined the assassination of President Kennedy. Milteer was taped by Somerset as he spoke of Kennedy's coming visit to Miami on November 18th:

November 14, 1963: an "unnamed subject" who had been arrested in Piedras Negras, Mexico on September 30th for stealing three cars, told the FBI "that he is a member of th Ku Klux Klan and that his sources have told him that a militant group of the National States Rights Party plans to assassinate the President and other high-level officials". The FBI's Washington D.C. headquarters tells the Secret Service that, "no information was developed that would indicate any danger to the President...during his trip to Dallas".

Acquiescing to the wishes of Governor Connally, Kenneth O'Donnell reverses his prior decision to hold the Dallas luncheon at the Women's Building and changes the location to the Dallas Trade Mart. According to both O'Donnell and Bruno, this change in the luncheon site, although seemingly insignificant at the time, dramatically alters the motorcade route taken through Dallas.

November 15, 1963: The White House announces that the Dallas Trade Mart will be the site of President Kennedy's luncheon address and that a motorcade will proceed through downtown Dallas. 

November 16, 1963: Lee Harvey Oswald visits the Dallas FBI office. ( Dallas Morning News, November 24, 1963 ) I believe that it is this visit where he leaves the note for Agent Hosty. This would have been the Saturday before the assassination, when Oswald did not go to Irving for the weekend. 

November 17, 1963: Hoover sends out a teletype to all FBI offices notifying them that "information has been received by the bureau that a militant revolutionary group may attempt to assassinate President Kennedy on his proposed trip to Dallas November 22-23 1963. All receiving offices should immmediately contact all CIs ( Criminal Informants ), PCIs ( Potential Criminal Informants ), logical Race and Hate groups ( KKK, NSRP, Nazis ) and determine if any basis for threats. Bureau should be kept advised of all developments by teletype." In other words, no written reports: notify the Bureau by teletype. If the information was found to be true, it would end up in the hands of Hoover, who would make sure that the Secret Service would not be warned.

November 18, 1963: Kennedy confides to his good friend senator George Smathers of Florida that Vice President Johnson wants First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy to ride in the car with him during the upcoming tour of Texas.  

The exact motorcade route is finalized and published in the Dallas newspapers.

November 19, 1963: The White House formally announces the timetable of events for the president's visit, including a planned arrival time of 12:30 p.m. CST at the Trade Mart.

November 20, 1963: In the early morning hours of November 20, 1963, a drug addict and prostitute named Rose Cheramie was found lying on the side of the road near Eunice, Louisiana. She had been thrown from a moving car.

State Police Lieutenant Francis Fruge, investigating the incident, asked her what had happened. She told him that she had been travelling from Florida to Dallas with two Latin men. When he asked her what they were going to do in Dallas, she replied, "pick up some money, pick up my baby and ....kill Kennedy."
Battered and bruised and in a state of near hysteria, she was transported to Louisiana State Hospital in Jackson. She appeared to be under the influence of some drug. 
At the State Hospital, she repeated her claim to the doctors several times, saying that the President would be murdered in two days and said that she got her information from "word in the underworld". But because of her emotional state at the time, she was thought to be in a drug-induced delirium and her story was not believed.

Meanwhile in Dallas, Warren Caster, regional manager for Southwest Publishing Company, brings two rifles into the Texas School Book Depository, a 30.06 deer rifle for himself ( described as a "Mauser" ) and a .22 caliber rifle he claims is a Christmas gift for his son. The rifles are examined by TSBD manager Roy Truly and Supervisor William Shelley. This action is witnessed by Lee Harvey Oswald, who tells the Dallas Police of it after his arrest.

( this is as far as I've gotten )

Edited October 22, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Joe Bauer]

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

November 9, 1963: Miami Police informant Willie Somerset recorded a breakfast meeting with his friend Joseph Milteer, who outlined the assassination of President Kennedy. Milteer was taped by Somerset as he spoke of Kennedy's coming visit to Miami on November 18th:

 

The above video is one of the most astounding JFKA related ones ever imo.

I've always been suspicious about it's lack of exposure, coverage and discussion in the larger picture of the actual scenario that took place in Dallas just two weeks after the tape was made in Miami. The main stream media in particular.

JFK's SS team top to bottom ( almost the same in Miami as Dallas ) had to have been told of Joseph Milteer's JFK killing prediction before Dallas which described in advance the shooting in such incredible detail and uncanny accuracy any police investigation should have gone after Milteer with every ounce of effort they could muster.

Milteer should have been one of the top 3 suspects on everyone's radar based on his too accurate taped JFK killing scenario prediction alone.

After viewing the above video, I sense that the Miami Police officer in it was deeply affected not just by the fact that JFK was killed exactly how Milteer predicted he would be in Dallas just two weeks after their taping of him, but I believe he was also deeply troubled by the fact that JFK's SS detail and also the Dallas PD and even the FBI did exactly what his police department probably warned them not to do.

To leave open windows in Dallas higher storied buildings unchecked or even prohibited and to ignore placing security on building roof tops at the same time.

The Miami police knew how rabid the hatred of JFK was in their city with not just hot-headed Cubans but also violent extremist segregationists like Milteer.

And one can be sure that the Miami police knew that right wing extremist and segregationist Dallas was as dangerous a place for JFK to visit as Miami was at that time.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Meanwhile in Dallas, Warren Caster, regional manager for Southwest Publishing Company, brings two rifles into the Texas School Book Depository, a 30.06 deer rifle for himself ( described as a "Mauser" ) and a .22 caliber rifle he claims is a Christmas gift for his son. The rifles are examined by TSBD manager Roy Truly and Supervisor William Shelley. This action is witnessed by Lee Harvey Oswald, who tells the Dallas Police of it after his arrest.

So, the only way Fritz and Curry knew about this Book Depository gun show fact was because Oswald told them of it?

Not one of those who were part of it or witnessed it or otherwise knew of it besides Oswald ever volunteered it's occurrence?

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Gil Jesus]

22 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The above video is one of the most astounding JFKA related ones ever imo.

I've always been suspicious about it's lack of exposure, coverage and discussion in the larger picture of the actual scenario that took place in Dallas just two weeks after the tape was made in Miami. The main stream media in particular.

JFK's SS team top to bottom ( almost the same in Miami as Dallas ) had to have been told of Joseph Milteer's JFK killing prediction before Dallas which described in advance the shooting in such incredible detail and uncanny accuracy any police investigation should have gone after Milteer with every ounce of effort they could muster.

Milteer should have been one of the top 3 suspects on everyone's radar based on his too accurate taped JFK killing scenario prediction alone.

 

When the FBI visited Milteer after the assassination, they had the recording, so they knew what he said. When he denied that he ever said it, he should have been arrested right on the spot for making a false statement to a federal agent. He should have been taken back to the FBI office and told that he'd be spending the next five years in Federal prison unless he revealed the source of his information. If he lawyered up, the recording would have been played for him and his lawyer to hear. At that point, he would have had no choice but to either cooperate with the investigation, or go to prison. Under those circumstances, most defense lawyers would have advised their client to cooperate.

That's how it would have been handled in a normal murder investigation. But this was not an investigation, this was a collection of evidence against Oswald. So once he denied saying it, the FBI simply reported his denial and the issue was dropped.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Joe Bauer]

26 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

When the FBI visited Milteer after the assassination, they had the recording, so they knew what he said. When he denied that he ever said it, he should have been arrested right on the spot for making a false statement to a federal agent. He should have been taken back to the FBI office and told that he'd be spending the next five years in Federal prison unless he revealed the source of his information. If he lawyered up, the recording would have been played for him and his lawyer to hear. At that point, he would have had no choice but to either cooperate with the investigation, or go to prison.

That's how it would have been handled in a normal murder investigation. But this was not an investigation, this was a collection of evidence against Oswald. So once he denied saying it, the FBI simply reported his denial and the issue was dropped.

Exactly.

Just another logical reason to suspect the official investigation was compromised from the very first day it was initiated.

I like and totally agree with your assessment of what the FBI should have done with Milteer in those first few days.
I didn't know that the FBI actually played the Miami recording to Milteer. And he simply denied it was him?

And they let Milteer walk away after telling that blatant lie?

Sickening imo.

That's right up there with Dallas FBI man James Hosty knowingly keeping the fact of his destroying his office's Oswald file and flushing it down a toilet after being ordered to do so by his boss just one day after Oswald was murdered from the Warren Commission during his sworn oath testimony ( to tell the truth...THE "FULL" TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH ) to them just months later.

Can you imagine how much that Oswald evidence destroying "TRUTH" by the FBI would have forced the Warren Commission into a completely different investigative mode. One they never wanted to get anywhere near? 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Griffith]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:34 AM, Joe Bauer said:

"After tomorrow those damn Kennedy's will never embarrass me again. That's no threat, that's a promise."

LBJ to his nineteen year long mistress Madeline Brown.

Madeleine Brown was a fraud. She made demonstrably false claims, such as the alleged 11/21/63 evening party at the Murchison home, which she said was attended by LBJ, J. Edgar Hoover, H. L. Hunt, John McCloy, and Richard Nixon, among others. 

Her tales were debunked years ago. She ranks right up there with Fletch Prouty in telling tall tales that critics have used to discredit the case for conspiracy.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Michael Griffith