David Von Pein Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Alan Ford said: It seems you are mistaking the stone-gridwork behind for a second head... I see my mistake now. What I thought was a second man is really just the shadow of the only man there. His shadow (including the shadow of his moving left arm) is being cast on the facade of the Depository building behind him. Edited February 16 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ford Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, David Von Pein said: I see my mistake now. What I thought was a second man is really just the shadow of the only man there. His shadow (including the shadow of his moving left arm) is being cast on the facade of the Depository building behind him. Thank you, Mr. Von Pein. So............... what in the heck is going on here? Who is this man? He wasn't here at the time of the motorcade (we know this from Bell). What is he doing? What is he holding up in this strange fashion? Why is Officer Baker running straight in his direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Rose Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 2 hours ago, David Von Pein said: After staring at your looped clip many times in a row, it would seem to me that there are two people (men?) to the right (east) of the mailboxes, and the guy on the left seems to be moving his left arm in some manner. I'm guessing that that is the man's ARM and not a paper bag as some EF members seem to believe it is. David, I thought there were two men, as well, initially. But, further observation led me to believe that the "man" on the right is the shadow of the man on the left. And, the man is definitely holding something. And the something isn't very heavy because he seems to be holding it with only one hand at a very awkward angle. I still don't know what's happening for sure, but it may be that the man is raising the far end of the object over the cross piece of the street barricade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 4 hours ago, Alan Ford said: Why is Officer Baker running straight in his direction? Baker is running straight to the TSBD front entrance. We know this is true because....... Baker told us this. PLUS, we know Baker was inside the TSBD lunchroom within 2 minutes of the shots being fired. Ergo, there is no time available for Baker to have made a side trip to visit "Mailbox Man" on the far east side of the Depository Building. These are basic facts....regardless of THIS EXTREMELY SILLY THEORY promoted in years past by various CTers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ford Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 (edited) 9 hours ago, Tony Rose said: I still don't know what's happening for sure, but it may be that the man is raising the far end of the object over the cross piece of the street barricade. Mr. Rose, the raised object is not obstructing from our view the black diagonal stripe on the streetworks barrier, and a little bit of this object appears under the crossbeam. This puts the raised object behind (i.e. north of) the barrier Edited February 17 by Alan Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ford Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 (edited) 5 hours ago, David Von Pein said: Baker is running straight to the TSBD front entrance. We know this is true because....... Baker told us this. He is running straight towards the mailboxes not the front entrance. We know this is true because........ We have eyes to see that are not blinded by the official fairytale. Those who would assure us there is 'Nothing to See Here' over by the mailboxes are contradicted not only by their own inability to offer a credible suggestion as to what the scene shows, but also by the caught-on-film action of Officer Baker himself. He is responding to shots fired and general pandemonium by dashing not for the front steps but for the man in front of the mailboxes. (Look closely at the latter frames of the clip above, and you'll see a woman just ahead of Officer Baker also running towards the man.) Who is this man in front of the mailboxes? What is he doing there? What is he holding up? All the gallons of ink spilled about Mr. Louie 'Umbrella Man' Witt, and this fellow's bizarre behavior underneath the SN window has gone ignored all these years.................. Edited February 17 by Alan Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamey Flanagan Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) This is a VERY interesting and intriguing thread that I have just stumbled upon recently. I appreciate Mr. Ford for bringing up several issues! I don't necessarily agree with everything put forth as far as different scenarios or hypotheses, but you don't find answers if you don't ask questions! I found the mailbox man fascinating. It took me a bit to see exactly who the OP was referring to and once I saw the figure, I too initially thought it was a woman in a skirt. Then, once it was pointed out that it was a man, I too saw this. At one point, I decided there was no one there at all. Like many, I thought there were two individuals there (mistaking the building latticework or whatever for another head) and then decided that this figure's head was also part of that design on the building. Upon further inspection however, you can clearly see where that design ends before reaching the figure in question's head. I never thought in any way this was or remotely resembled LHO. I am undecided on whatever the figure appears to be holding. I don't see any strong evidence that Marion Baker was heading towards the mailboxes instead of the entrance. I thought it could resemble Bill Shelley possibly but even if he discarded his jacket momentarily, I doubt he took his tie off and put it back on so quickly. The other intriguing piece of evidence that I saw for the first time was the doorway closeups of the Towner film. I have long said that something must have happened there at the turn for it to be completely erased from photographic existence! There's the splice in the Towner film, the stopping and starting in Zapruder (that never happened in his filming of the event that) completely erasing the whole turn onto Elm Street, and various other filmers whose films just happened to stop as the limo turned onto Elm. Just too big of a coincidence that so many filmers that day and not a single one captured the turn from Houston to Elm. Why? I have always known there was something they did not want us to see that happened there. Maybe an earlier missed shot. Various witnesses have said at one time or another that they heard the first shot either as the limo turned onto Elm or shortly after it made the turn. If not that, then possibly someone showed up on these films they did not want us to see in the crowd. LHO maybe? Jack Ruby? I can't say what it was, but logic just suggests that it was definitely something that went against the Warren Commission lone-nut assassin scenario. I do not think that JFK authorized a staged false flag attack on himself. Just my opinion, but after turning down things like Operation Northwoods, I just don't see this as something he'd do. I'm not gonna completely rule it out however. That could explain why JFK didn't duck down after hearing a first missed shot sensing no real danger. I wouldn't lean towards Bobby authorizing a false flag attack either although it could explain why he wasn't vocal about not believing the official story. If they took his plan and turned it into a real assassination using his people then it would effectively neuter him. I just don't think this is likely. There have been several reports of some kind of false flag attempt being staged that day. Some more credible than others. A lot of talk about an abort team. And this abort team not expecting a real assassination. They expected some kind of simulated attack and were as shocked as anyone when a real attack happened. To me, this screams of CIA. If this did occur at all. They formed this plan as a more tame version of Northwoods, but never ran it by the president or his staff. It would have been an "off-the-books" operation. This abort team was expecting a simulated attack but the real team knew it was a greenlight to kill the man. These are my thoughts. Right or wrong that is just how I feel at the moment. I am very open-minded when it comes to the assassination because stranger things have been all but proven to be true. Remember folks, we are all in this together. Most of us here probably think LHO (or at least the one killed by Ruby, lol!) did not shoot anyone that day and was most certainly not up in a sixth floor window at the time of the shooting. We all want to contribute and all want to see new evidence come forth that proves that this man did not do it! In that spirit, let's try our best not to snipe (pun intended, lol!) at each other and be so condescending towards each other. We definitely should challenge each other, but do it in a respectful manner. Whether you disagree with someone's theory completely or someone is ridiculing your theory. 30 pages of a thread is a ton of ground to cover! It would be easier to navigate if maybe ten of those pages weren't different posters going at each other because they disagree. Agree to disagree and move on. We all need to scour these videos and still frames as closely as we can though and try and gleam any new details we can from them. Is Lovelady still alive? Can any of the forum members contact him if so just to ask him if he was waving any kind of flag as the limo passed by or if he saw someone doing so? I'm not going to rule out any other TSBD employees being involved in some kind of intelligence operation. But I probably wouldn't lean that way. The building was owned by D.H. Byrd, one of the founders of the Civil Air Patrol. The very same CAP that David Ferry was an instructor in and a young LHO was a part of. The TSBD could very well have been a front somewhat for CIA gun running or something of the sort. I have read somewhere that illegal guns were possibly shipped there in the book crates and then diverted elsewhere. In that case most of your employees would be oblivious to such an operation and would work for the actual TSBD while a select few with intelligence backgrounds would handle the illegal activities. Much like has been suggested that another former Oswald employer Reilly Coffee Company was just a front for intelligence operations. Hasn't it been questioned whether Bill Shelley was an asset of the Agency before? Alright, my post is already SUPER long so I'll leave it at that for now. Edited February 24 by Jamey Flanagan Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Sorry, but you all are wrong on the path Officer Baker took across Elm Street Extension. I analyzed this in depth years ago and showed that the path Baker took was, at first, across the street roughly following the crosswalk lines. The crosswalk isn't perpendicular to the road... it runs at an angle. On the TSBD side of the road, the crosswalk ends roughly in front of the mailboxes on the east side of the TSBD entrance. (BTW, coincidentally, the people's shadows lie in approximately parallel to the crosswalk. Because of this, you will see that people crossing the street are walking the direction of the shadows.) Now, if Baker had continued running in that direction, then Alan Ford would be correct in saying he was headed toward the man waving the long bag, or whatever it is he is waving. However, he does NOT continue running that direction. After passing the man who many identify as Roy Truly, Baker veers to his right. It is easy to see this (see the GIF videos in my presentation) because at the very end of the Darnell clip, Baker is running roughly perpendicular to the camera's view. That's right... we don't see him from behind, but rather from his side! At the end of the clip he is headed toward the Elm/Houston intersection. Here's my analysis.. it's a quick, easy to follow presentation: Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ege Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Sorry, but you all are wrong on the path Officer Baker took across Elm Street Extension. I analyzed this in depth years ago and showed that the path Baker took was, at first, across the street roughly following the crosswalk lines. The crosswalk isn't perpendicular to the road... it runs at an angle. On the TSBD side of the road, the crosswalk ends roughly in front of the mailboxes on the east side of the TSBD entrance. (BTW, coincidentally, the people's shadows lie in approximately parallel to the crosswalk. Because of this, you will see that people crossing the street are walking the direction of the shadows.) Now, if Baker had continued running in that direction, then Alan Ford would be correct in saying he was headed toward the man waving the long bag, or whatever it is he is waving. However, he does NOT continue running that direction. After passing the man who many identify as Roy Truly, Baker veers to his right. It is easy to see this (see the GIF videos in my presentation) because at the very end of the Darnell clip, Baker is running roughly perpendicular to the camera's view. That's right... we don't see him from behind, but rather from his side! At the end of the clip he is headed toward the Elm/Houston intersection. Here's my analysis.. it's a quick, easy to follow presentation: Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building? Sandy, thank you for the reminder. I reread your post and I agree. Please refresh my memory. If Baker was not running directly into the TSBD, then would it not be your stance that the "official" timeline for his alleged confrontation with Oswald had to be later than that which has been "officially" established, and therefore seriously put in question the WC's determinations of the subsequent actions of Baker/Truly and other TSBD employees, when trying to identify Oswald's exact location just before/during/after the shots- if the confrontation (with Oswald, that is) happened at all? I have my doubts that it did. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 21 hours ago, Ron Ege said: Sandy, thank you for the reminder. I reread your post and I agree. Please refresh my memory. If Baker was not running directly into the TSBD, then would it not be your stance that the "official" timeline for his alleged confrontation with Oswald had to be later than that which has been "officially" established, and therefore seriously put in question the WC's determinations of the subsequent actions of Baker/Truly and other TSBD employees, when trying to identify Oswald's exact location just before/during/after the shots- if the confrontation (with Oswald, that is) happened at all? I have my doubts that it did. Thank you. Ron, First, thanks for studying my presentation. When I made that presentation, I was still open to the possibility that an encounter between Officer Baker and Oswald did occur on the second floor. However, because of what I found and presented in my Darnell study, I was convinced that the encounter must have occurred significantly later than what the Warren Commission said. At the time, I was a new researcher and didn't understand the implications of a later encounter. I began reading the statements of Baker and others involved in that story (like Vickie Adams, Billy Lovelady, and Bill Shelley). It was then that I began have doubts that the encounter ever even occurred. Eight years have passed, and I've believed for most those eight years that there was no such encounter, and that it was just a WC fabrication designed to place Oswald at a certain location at a certain time. Bart Kamp's discovery of the Hosty's P. Parade note was the last nail in that chapter's coffin. It is clear now that the second floor encounter never occurred, and that Oswald was likely out on the steps of the TSBD during or near the time of the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ege Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Ron, First, thanks for studying my presentation. When I made that presentation, I was still open to the possibility that an encounter between Officer Baker and Oswald did occur on the second floor. However, because of what I found and presented in my Darnell study, I was convinced that the encounter must have occurred significantly later than what the Warren Commission said. At the time, I was a new researcher and didn't understand the implications of a later encounter. I began reading the statements of Baker and others involved in that story (like Vickie Adams, Billy Lovelady, and Bill Shelley). It was then that I began have doubts that the encounter ever even occurred. Eight years have passed, and I've believed for most those eight years that there was no such encounter, and that it was just a WC fabrication designed to place Oswald at a certain location at a certain time. Bart Kamp's discovery of the Hosty's P. Parade note was the last nail in that chapter's coffin. It is clear now that the second floor encounter never occurred, and that Oswald was likely out on the steps of the TSBD during or near the time of the shooting. Thank you; I am much inclined to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamey Flanagan Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 If I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a theory based on some early testimony or a report or something that an encounter with some individual did occur but that it was on the first floor, like right as you enter through the front steps? If I recall correctly there was maybe a janitor's closet or something where an individual was seen and many suggested this was Oswald and that was where the encounter really took place. Any thoughts on this? Other than that, the only thing I can add is that I'm still not seeing anything conclusive in the gif that Baker wasn't running for the front steps. I'm just not seeing anything that would convince me either way that he was or wasn't. I did read in his testimony that he basically ignored the instructions to get up on top of the overpass in the railroad yard because he knew that shots either came from the TSBD or "this other building" (which I assume would be the Dal-Tex building). So, I can buy that he might have been heading towards the Dal-Tex initially. I don't think you can absolutely conclude that from this short clip but I'm open to it. I'm not exactly seeing how that delays him more than maybe five extra seconds even if that is the case. And I'm not completely sold that the second floor encounter even happened so I'm not just being stubborn in my beliefs, lol! I just don't see the game changer that y'all are seeing, lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamey Flanagan Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 Found this pic online if it helps in comparison to whatever "mailbox man" is holding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ford Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 Darnell offers no evidence that Officer Baker is doing anything other than running in a straight line for the area by the mailboxes. No reason to believe Officer Baker inexplicably changes course at the moment he happens to come between Mr. Darnell's camera and Mr. Truly. (As Mr. Larsen has demonstrated via shadow analysis, the proximity between Officer Baker and Mr. Truly is an optical illusion. I would add that this optical illusion makes folks see a change of course that just isn't there.) Officer Baker and the running woman are converging on a point: the area by the mailboxes. Naturally, they are coming at this area at different angles. Mr. James Hackerott's graphic puts Officer Baker's endpoint a tiny bit too west, but offers a useful illustration nonetheless: This trajectory makes zero sense if Officer Baker is intent on entering the building immediately. And it would make zero sense if there was nothing of interest at the mailboxes area beyond an opportunity to post letters. Thankfully, as we know, we can with perfect ease identify the reason for Officer Baker's straight dash to the mailboxes area: a man is standing there doing something quite bizarre that no one here can offer an innocent explanation for: It's a major breakthrough in our understanding of what really happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 I respectfully disagree with both Jamey and Alan as to Officer Baker's path across Elm Street Extension. I do agree with Alan that Baker does initially run toward the mailbox area, but that he does that only because that is the direction of the crosswalk. But Baker does indeed veer to his right and toward the intersection of Elm and Houston at the very end of the clip. Anybody who reads and studies my presentation should be able to see that. If Baker isn't veering to his right at the very end, then why do we see a view primarily of his side, as opposed to seeing primarily his butt side, as we do with the girl who was running parallel to Baker's initial trajectory? And why does his path cross that girl's path at the very end? Here again is my analysis: Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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