Gochenaur on Hosty

[Gerry Down]

5 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Just send an email to archives2reference@nara.gov with the RIF, agency file number, and date of the records you want, and they’ll get back to you with a quote. They do digital reproductions and will send it to you in a Dropbox type thing, but you can also request paper copies. The fees are here: 

https://www.archives.gov/research/order/fees

I recommend requesting several records at a time just because it takes so damn long. Last one I did took over four months. Supposedly they are digitizing the entire collection to comply with Biden’s Dec. 2021 letter, but God knows when that’ll actually get done. 

Thanks for that tip.

9 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Interesting. He doesn’t mention Marina’s contacts with the embassy, and that’s not even accurate. Hosty knew that Oswald was in contact with CPUSA and the FPCC prior to the assassination. 

Oswald apparently contacted the CPUSA in Feb or March 1963 and tried to join. Here is the letter he wrote which has the 2915 P.O. Box address at the bottom. Suspicious that Oswald might be a government agent, Hall never responded and the letter remained in his files until his death in 2000. As a result, this letter was apparently a secret for decades. It makes me wonder if Hosty knew about this letter before the JFK assassination but never mentioned it in any of his testimonies. If he did know about it, then he would have known about the 2915 P.O Box address. I presume the FBI mail intercept program picked this letter up. One would imagine someone looking to join the CPUSA was a serious matter and FBI HQ would have passed it on straight away to the agent handling that person.

Additionally, in late May 1963 Oswald wrote to the FPCC looking to set up a chapter in New Orleans. I presume the FBI mail intercept program picked up this letter. Again, someone looking to set up a FPCC chapter would be a serious matter and one would imagine FBI HQ would notify the New Orleans FBI field office to go and check out this guy Oswald.

Apparently it took FBI HQ until June 27th 1963 to tell Hosty that Oswald had been in touch with the FPCC back in April 1963. That is quiet a delay. But i wonder if LHO looking to join the CPUSA and set up a New Orleans FPCC chapter would be more urgent items and so the mail intercept program would deem these to be more urgent items whereby the relevant FBI field offices, where LHO was believed to be at those times, should be immediately notified. 

[Tom Gram]

9 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Thanks for that tip.

Oswald apparently contacted the CPUSA in Feb or March 1963 and tried to join. Here is the letter he wrote which has the 2915 P.O. Box address at the bottom. Suspicious that Oswald might be a government agent, Hall never responded and the letter remained in his files until his death in 2000. As a result, this letter was apparently a secret for decades. It makes me wonder if Hosty knew about this letter before the JFK assassination but never mentioned it in any of his testimonies. If he did know about it, then he would have known about the 2915 P.O Box address. I presume the FBI mail intercept program picked this letter up. One would imagine someone looking to join the CPUSA was a serious matter and FBI HQ would have passed it on straight away to the agent handling that person.

Additionally, in late May 1963 Oswald wrote to the FPCC looking to set up a chapter in New Orleans. I presume the FBI mail intercept program picked up this letter. Again, someone looking to set up a FPCC chapter would be a serious matter and one would imagine FBI HQ would notify the New Orleans FBI field office to go and check out this guy Oswald.

Apparently it took FBI HQ until June 27th 1963 to tell Hosty that Oswald had been in touch with the FPCC back in April 1963. That is quite a delay. But i wonder if LHO looking to join the CPUSA and set up a New Orleans FPCC chapter would be more urgent items and so the mail intercept program would deem these to be more urgent items whereby the relevant FBI field offices, where LHO was believed to be at those times, should be immediately notified. 

Interesting, didn’t know about this. What’s the source on this letter again? It wasn’t found until 2000? 

The FBI surely did have some sort of mail cover program on CPUSA, but a lot of their info, including the Sept ‘62 and June ‘63 correspondence with Oswald was supposedly sourced from informants. If I recall, at least one of the informants (maybe NY-2354-S, the guy who turned over the Sept. ‘62 Oswald info) has been verified as an actual person, but don’t quote me on that. I don’t have the full number of the other one handy but it ends in 48-S. I suppose either could be a mail cover, or a Postal Inspector or something, but the point I’m trying to make is that Oswald’s CPUSA correspondence was consistently picked up by the FBI, and quickly, like with a week or two of mailing, and shared with Dallas prior to the assassination… with one glaring exception: the entire rental period of P.O. Box 2915.

In addition to this letter there were a couple CPUSA letters in Dec ‘62 if I recall:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11133#relPageId=66

I believe there also should have been at least one subscription renewal during that time. Maybe one of the “three subscriptions” mentioned above? 

I’m falling asleep, but point is, the fact that the FBI claims a complete blackout on Oswald’s mail during the one period where knowledge of Oswald’s mailing address would annihilate the official Hosty story is more than a little suspicious, IMO, and this CPUSA letter makes it even worse.

EDIT: To clarify on CPUSA, since I was asleep when I wrote the above, the New York Field Office snatched up Oswald’s 9/62 correspondence right away, contacted Dallas and the letters were included in Oswald’s security file. Exact same thing happens in June ‘63. Box 2915 is rented October ‘62 - May ‘63. Oswald corresponds with CPUSA, SWP, and the FPCC throughout that entire period, but none of that mail is allegedly collected by the FBI, with the exception of Oswald’s April ‘63 FPCC letter. However instead of being Johnny-on-the-spot sharing info like they were with every other piece of Oswald’s mail, New York waits 69 days to send the FPCC letter to Dallas.

In the meantime, James Hosty contacts the Post Office multiple times, receives information on address changes that do not exist in the extant record, and allegedly fails to figure out that the Oswalds have a post office box until the FPCC letter finally shows up in Dallas on June 27th. As a result, Oswald is able to slip away to New Orleans and evade the FBI until August. That’s the official story at least…

Edited November 3, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Gil Jesus]

18 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

If it's true and documented that Oswald did indeed ask the N.O. police to have an F.B.I. agent visit him in the jail there...what has been the generally accepted research community reason he did so?

That action on Oswald's part begs incredibly suspicious questions.

What percentage of arrested persons in America ever make that kind of specific request ... "maybe" one in a million?

 

I agree.

For a simple "disturbing the peace" charge ?

Since when does the FBI get involved in anything other than a federal crime ?

 

[Tom Gram]

11 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Thanks for that tip.

Oswald apparently contacted the CPUSA in Feb or March 1963 and tried to join. Here is the letter he wrote which has the 2915 P.O. Box address at the bottom. Suspicious that Oswald might be a government agent, Hall never responded and the letter remained in his files until his death in 2000. As a result, this letter was apparently a secret for decades. It makes me wonder if Hosty knew about this letter before the JFK assassination but never mentioned it in any of his testimonies. If he did know about it, then he would have known about the 2915 P.O Box address. I presume the FBI mail intercept program picked this letter up. One would imagine someone looking to join the CPUSA was a serious matter and FBI HQ would have passed it on straight away to the agent handling that person.

Additionally, in late May 1963 Oswald wrote to the FPCC looking to set up a chapter in New Orleans. I presume the FBI mail intercept program picked up this letter. Again, someone looking to set up a FPCC chapter would be a serious matter and one would imagine FBI HQ would notify the New Orleans FBI field office to go and check out this guy Oswald.

Apparently it took FBI HQ until June 27th 1963 to tell Hosty that Oswald had been in touch with the FPCC back in April 1963. That is quiet a delay. But i wonder if LHO looking to join the CPUSA and set up a New Orleans FPCC chapter would be more urgent items and so the mail intercept program would deem these to be more urgent items whereby the relevant FBI field offices, where LHO was believed to be at those times, should be immediately notified. 

How do you know this was from February or March, or that it’s even genuine? It does look like Oswald’s handwriting, but did anyone ever do a comparison? It just seems a bit odd that Oswald wouldn’t follow up on a membership request in any of his subsequent letters to CPUSA. 

Also, Bart Kamp posted some links to Church Committee material on Carver Gayton at ROKC, including Gayton’s affadavit and an interview summary. It’s a different RIF but seems to be the document you’re looking for. 

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2797-carver-gayton-church-committee#43286

EDIT: Your suspicions were correct by the way. Gayton told the Church Committee that Hosty told him Oswald was listed as a PSI, but that he didn’t have any contact with him - he just left notes at his door urging him to get in contact with the FBI.

It looks like Hosty was possibly just describing the closing and reopening of the Oswald case - like maybe internal security case subjects were considered  PSI’s at the Field Office level, which makes sense - but either way it sure as hell looks like Gayton lied to the HSCA, at least by omission. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

How do you know this was from February or March, or that it’s even genuine? It does look like Oswald’s handwriting, but did anyone ever do a comparison? It just seems a bit odd that Oswald wouldn’t follow up on a membership request in any of his subsequent letters to CPUSA.

This letter to Gus Hall is up for sale. Here is the link:

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/22407/lot/27/oswald-lee-harvey-1939-1963-autograph-letter-signed-lee-h-oswald-1-p-dallas-tx-february-or-march-1963-to-gus-hall-general-secretary-of-the-communist-part-usa-and-elizabeth-gurley-flynn-national-chairman-of-the-communist-party/

The link states:

"Autograph Letter Signed ("Lee H. Oswald"), 1 p, Dallas, TX, February or March, 1963, to Gus Hall, General Secretary of the Communist Part USA, and E[lizabeth] G[urley] Flynn, National Chairman of the Communist Party.........Suspicious that Oswald might be a government agent, Hall never responded and the letter remained in his files until his death in 2000. The post office box is the same as the one Oswald used to purchase the mail-order rifle with which he killed President Kennedy. Gus Hall (1910-2000) joined the Communist Party in 1927 and helped organize the Young Communist League in the Midwest." 

I guess it can be easy to forget that the FBI mail intercept program was not as watertight as the HTLINGUAL program. Letters could slip through the cracks if the FBI were depending on informants to copy letters and then pass them on to the FBI. Its possible that as the letter was addressed personally to Gus Hall, and assuming Gus Hall was not an FBI informant himself, then the only person as the CPUSA that might have seen this letter was Gus Hall himself. Therefore its possible the FBI, and that includes Hosty, never did see this letter. 

In this scenario, when Oswald was writing to the CPUSA in the summer of 1963, he was doing so in the knowledge that he had previously written to them looking to join the CPUSA but they had not bothered to write back to him. 

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

Also, Bart Kamp posted some links to Church Committee material on Carver Gayton at ROKC, including Gayton’s affadavit and an interview summary. It’s a different RIF but seems to be the document you’re looking for. 

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2797-carver-gayton-church-committee#43286

To Bart Kamp over at the ROKC, much thanks for these links. 

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

I agree.

For a simple "disturbing the peace" charge ?

Since when does the FBI get involved in anything other than a federal crime ?

 

Oswald was involved with the N.O. FBI in some capacity. And Banister as well.

[Jean Ceulemans]

14 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Interesting, didn’t know about this. What’s the source on this letter again? It wasn’t found until 2000? 

The FBI surely did have some sort of mail cover program on CPUSA, but a lot of their info, including the Sept ‘62 and June ‘63 correspondence with Oswald was supposedly sourced from informants. If I recall, at least one of the informants (maybe NY-2354-S, the guy who turned over the Sept. ‘62 Oswald info) has been verified as an actual person, but don’t quote me on that. I don’t have the full number of the other one handy but it ends in 48-S. I suppose either could be a mail cover, or a Postal Inspector or something, but the point I’m trying to make is that Oswald’s CPUSA correspondence was consistently picked up by the FBI, and quickly, like with a week or two of mailing, and shared with Dallas prior to the assassination… with one glaring exception: the entire rental period of P.O. Box 2915.

In addition to this letter there were a couple CPUSA letters in Dec ‘62 if I recall:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11133#relPageId=66

I believe there also should have been at least one subscription renewal during that time. Maybe one of the “three subscriptions” mentioned above? 

I’m falling asleep, but point is, the fact that the FBI claims a complete blackout on Oswald’s mail during the one period where knowledge of Oswald’s mailing address would annihilate the official Hosty story is more than a little suspicious, IMO, and this CPUSA letter makes it even worse.

 

There was Oswald's handwritten letter to the CP in August 1963

I believe it's referred to as "....Johnson exhibit .. " something like that, don't remember... will look it up

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Jean Ceulemans]

Had to look it up : Johnson Arnold Exhibit 4, dated August 28, 1963:

https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/pdf/WH20_JohnsonArnold_Ex_4.pdf

Remembered this letter because of his expressed state of mind at that time, something really to consider IMO !

PS : this letter was also part of The examination of the handwriting and fingerprint evidence for the S.C.A.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Tom Gram]

On 11/3/2023 at 10:08 AM, Gerry Down said:

This letter to Gus Hall is up for sale. Here is the link:

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/22407/lot/27/oswald-lee-harvey-1939-1963-autograph-letter-signed-lee-h-oswald-1-p-dallas-tx-february-or-march-1963-to-gus-hall-general-secretary-of-the-communist-part-usa-and-elizabeth-gurley-flynn-national-chairman-of-the-communist-party/

The link states:

"Autograph Letter Signed ("Lee H. Oswald"), 1 p, Dallas, TX, February or March, 1963, to Gus Hall, General Secretary of the Communist Part USA, and E[lizabeth] G[urley] Flynn, National Chairman of the Communist Party.........Suspicious that Oswald might be a government agent, Hall never responded and the letter remained in his files until his death in 2000. The post office box is the same as the one Oswald used to purchase the mail-order rifle with which he killed President Kennedy. Gus Hall (1910-2000) joined the Communist Party in 1927 and helped organize the Young Communist League in the Midwest." 

I guess it can be easy to forget that the FBI mail intercept program was not as watertight as the HTLINGUAL program. Letters could slip through the cracks if the FBI were depending on informants to copy letters and then pass them on to the FBI. Its possible that as the letter was addressed personally to Gus Hall, and assuming Gus Hall was not an FBI informant himself, then the only person as the CPUSA that might have seen this letter was Gus Hall himself. Therefore its possible the FBI, and that includes Hosty, never did see this letter. 

In this scenario, when Oswald was writing to the CPUSA in the summer of 1963, he was doing so in the knowledge that he had previously written to them looking to join the CPUSA but they had not bothered to write back to him. 

Thanks Gerry. I feel like there was a discussion about this on here at some point, but the source that turned over Oswald’s change of address to the Worker in June ‘63 was CSNY 48-S - which I’m assuming is just “confidential source New York”. I don’t know the significance of the atypical informant number, but I did find this which is kind of interesting: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=135756#relPageId=2

Strict care must be exercised so that the existence of this important source will not become known to any outside agency. It is also noted that because of the nature of this source of information it will be impossible to recontact the source regarding information furnished. 

I have no clue know what that really means, but it does kinda sound like CSNY 48-S was a mail cover operation on The Worker instead of a human informant. 

[Micah Mileto]

 Gochenaur did not mention in this interview that Moore allegedly showed him a JFK autopsy photograph - he said this on Black Op Radio and Destiny Betrayed.

[Benjamin Cole]

On 11/3/2023 at 9:24 AM, Gerry Down said:

Thanks for that tip.

Oswald apparently contacted the CPUSA in Feb or March 1963 and tried to join. Here is the letter he wrote which has the 2915 P.O. Box address at the bottom. Suspicious that Oswald might be a government agent, Hall never responded and the letter remained in his files until his death in 2000. As a result, this letter was apparently a secret for decades. It makes me wonder if Hosty knew about this letter before the JFK assassination but never mentioned it in any of his testimonies. If he did know about it, then he would have known about the 2915 P.O Box address. I presume the FBI mail intercept program picked this letter up. One would imagine someone looking to join the CPUSA was a serious matter and FBI HQ would have passed it on straight away to the agent handling that person.

Additionally, in late May 1963 Oswald wrote to the FPCC looking to set up a chapter in New Orleans. I presume the FBI mail intercept program picked up this letter. Again, someone looking to set up a FPCC chapter would be a serious matter and one would imagine FBI HQ would notify the New Orleans FBI field office to go and check out this guy Oswald.

Apparently it took FBI HQ until June 27th 1963 to tell Hosty that Oswald had been in touch with the FPCC back in April 1963. That is quiet a delay. But i wonder if LHO looking to join the CPUSA and set up a New Orleans FPCC chapter would be more urgent items and so the mail intercept program would deem these to be more urgent items whereby the relevant FBI field offices, where LHO was believed to be at those times, should be immediately notified. 

That is an interesting letter. 

This particular LHO letter is nearly free of grammatical and spelling errors. The only blemish is the odd use of a semi-colon. 

The exalted language sure reads like a government agent mimicking a true communist.  

And this letter is written after LHO has returned from Russia, disillusioned with the practice of communism as he saw it there? 

It is reasonable to ponder if LHO was an intel state asset. 

 

[Gerry Down]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:46 AM, Tom Gram said:

To clarify on CPUSA, since I was asleep when I wrote the above, the New York Field Office snatched up Oswald’s 9/62 correspondence right away, contacted Dallas and the letters were included in Oswald’s security file. Exact same thing happens in June ‘63. Box 2915 is rented October ‘62 - May ‘63. Oswald corresponds with CPUSA, SWP, and the FPCC throughout that entire period, but none of that mail is allegedly collected by the FBI, with the exception of Oswald’s April ‘63 FPCC letter. However instead of being Johnny-on-the-spot sharing info like they were with every other piece of Oswald’s mail, New York waits 69 days to send the FPCC letter to Dallas.

In the meantime, James Hosty contacts the Post Office multiple times, receives information on address changes that do not exist in the extant record, and allegedly fails to figure out that the Oswalds have a post office box until the FPCC letter finally shows up in Dallas on June 27th. As a result, Oswald is able to slip away to New Orleans and evade the FBI until August. That’s the official story at least…

Is it possible that the reason for the 69 day delay was because the FBI had acquired this data via a breakin. And if the New York FBI office were to disseminate the data it had attained from this breakin to various field offices throughout the U.S., some FBI agents in those field offices would be able to guess that it was the FBI who had burgled the FPCC office and this is where the info on the FPCC which was now being disseminated to them came from. By waiting a period of 69 days, this obscured somewhat the fact that the FBI had attained the data from the April FPCC breakin.

In such a situation this would be a relatively innocent explanation for the long delay in sharing the info with Hosty. 

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Is it possible that the reason for the 69 day delay was because the FBI had acquired this data via a breakin. And if the New York FBI office were to disseminate the data it had attained from this breakin to various field offices throughout the U.S., some FBI agents in those field offices would be able to guess that it was the FBI who had burgled the FPCC office and this is where the info on the FPCC which was now being disseminated to them came from. By waiting a period of 69 days, this obscured somewhat the fact that the FBI had attained the data from the April FPCC breakin.

In such a situation this would be a relatively innocent explanation for the long delay in sharing the info with Hosty. 

I think something like that is plausible - that Oswald’s letter was deprioritized for whatever reason - but the details on the break-in etc. aren’t exactly clear. We discussed this same topic a while back: 

I don’t have the link to this document handy, but this is the official explanation given to Inspector James H. Gale during the FBI’s secret internal investigation: 

Special Agent Hosty advised that New York did not report Oswald’s 4/21/63 Fair Play for Cuba contact to Dallas until letter sent 6/27/63 and Dallas did not feel it necessary to report it to Bureau until 9/10/63. Hosty admits “it possibly would have been better to have reported on this matter earlier” 

Special Agent Francis L. Lundquist, New York, this matter and states information was received from anonymous source and that because of heavy volume of such material he handled urgent matters first and finished entire processing at approximately the end of June, 1963.

Supervisor Harold A. Hoeg, New York, makes similar explanation. Inspector feels 68-day from 4/21/63 to 6/27/63 entirely too long to process such material, particularly inasmuch as New York in no position to determine value of some of this material to other offices who have active cases opened on individuals concerned.

Hoover agreed with Gale; and Hoeg, Lundquist and of course Hosty were all reprimanded by the FBI. 

What interests me is the coincidence of the alleged FBI blackout on Oswald’s mail during the rental period of P.O. Box 2915, and Hosty’s alleged failure to find that box in at least two separate trips to the Dallas Post Office - like the Dorothea Myers thing where Hosty was allegedly told - literally one day before the rifle order - of a change of address form to Neely St. that doesn’t officially exist.

Myers’ name only appears in that one FBI report. She was never interviewed, and her name is not mentioned once in the records of the Postal Inspection Service from after the assassination - at least not that I’ve been able to find. 

I believe the official excuse for Hosty’s failure to find the P.O. Box was that boxes couldn’t be looked up by name, or something like that, but Harry Holmes and other Postal inspectors identified all three of Oswald’s P.O. Boxes and all of Oswald and Marina’s change of address forms within hours of the assassination…

At the time of Hosty’s alleged 5/27/63 visit to the Dallas Post Office, there were three different CoA forms on file listing P.O. Box 2915, plus the box application, and a separate CoA form in Irving - but Hosty wrote:

a check with the Postmaster reflects that the subjects have moved and left no forwarding address

[Jean Ceulemans]

deleted

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans