Brian Baccus on Ruth Paine

[Jonathan Cohen]

18 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So Jonathan believes that the CIA planned an assassination involving Oswald, but merely hoped that he would get a job at a place where he or someone could shoot the president.

Show me where I ever said any such thing? Because I never did. There are perfectly logical alternative explanations to your nonsense above, including that any plot to specifically set up Oswald would not have been undertaken after and until he'd (quite innocently) taken the job at the TSBD. The plot needn't have required his specific presence along the motorcade route. It just required some patsy's presence. It could have been anyone. And with that in mind, your jumbled logic requiring Ruth Paine and Linnie Randle to be CIA agents falls apart.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Jonathan Cohen

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

@Greg Doudna

How do you think the CIA plotters got Oswald into the building they needed him to be?

You think Ruth Paine was a witting CIA asset (not paid employee?) who was asked by CIA to get Oswald into that specific building. If that were the case then after the assassination Ruth would have put two and two together, and the honest and right thing to do would be to have blown the whistle on that, not perjure under oath about it in service of the assassins. I don’t buy your hand wave idea that she was told, it’s necessary to avoid World War III blah blah blah, and she says, OK and does a lifetime of coverup to the present day in 2023 in order to still keep avoiding war in 1963… makes no sense.

Therefore while I realize you do not hold she was a gunman or had foreknowledge, you do suppose she had immediate afterknowledge and committed serious witting crimes (perjury and failure to disclose knowledge, conspiracy to cover up, etc, serious crimes), and never told, on behalf of the assassins who killed a president she loved.

That is outrageous, without any positive evidence, and with massive implausibility arguing negatively.

Yet you (so to speak) reason from your four named starting points to a flawed conclusion, close your eyes and wave your hand and the last sixty years of Ruth becomes, presto, one giant charade in your imaginary world.

Based on: the foundation of your starting four points, which actually are a foundation of logical fallacy reasoning.

To answer your question, I doubt there was an advance plan to place Oswald in TSBD. What do you do with all the prior job applications which by all appearances Lee tried to get? What if one of those employers had hired him? Those kinds of questions. 

I think in terms of it was one of two things: either no plan to have Oswald placed anywhere, but after he landed (wherever that was, TSBD as it happened), he was induced to xyz whatever and logistics planned accordingly. Or alternatively, if he was wittingly participating in something from the getgo, have him get a job anywhere in a building on the parade route or as close as he can, then work with that. 

If there WAS an advance intent or necessity to get him into TSBD with or without his knowledge, it about only could be done by, and would require no one else than, Linnie Mae. She invites her brother up from Huntsville and sets up a TSBD job for him. Buell doesn’t need to be witting but he is in place to know the bosses there and if asked, Buell could put in a good inside word at TSBD to help Lee get hired. Then Linnie Mae tells Buell about Lee’s need for a job learned from down the street. Soft-spoken Buell helpfully makes his polite inquiry, tells Linnie Mae. Linnie Mae then makes a point of getting word to Lee via Ruth Paine at the neighbors morning coffee, of the possible job opening, Ruth will pass it on, Lee will go in, he is hired, success. No Ruth phone call needed in this scenario, it is gratuitous, and Ruth could not have gotten Buell placed in TSBD in advance anyway. I do NOT think this is what happened,. But if it did hypothetically become established that the assassination could ONLY have come about if there was an advance intent to place Lee in that particular building to the exclusion of any others, that is what I would look at (and even then with a lot of tentativeness).  

Edited December 2, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Jean Ceulemans]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

Ruth testified under oath she was deeply offended and upset when she discovered Lee had used her typewriter without her permission.

 

Haven´t you read that one other letter that actually prooves things She was offended, and had the right to be. It was concerning another event, yet it was also something lee had done to an outsite party, they came to ruth about it. I gave it to another researcher here. Whatever, not my problem, some day maybe when one is interested in better understanding perhaps. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

You think Ruth Paine was a witting CIA asset (not paid employee?) who was asked by CIA to get Oswald into that specific building.

 

I believe that Ruth Paine's CIA handler instructed her to encourage Oswald to take a job at the TSBD. I believe that Oswald's CIA handler instructed him to follow Ruth's advice.

 

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

If that were the case then after the assassination Ruth would have put two and two together, and the honest and right thing to do would be to have blown the whistle on that, not perjure under oath about it in service of the assassins.

 

Ruth would have blown a whistle on what? That she advised Oswald to take a job at the TSBD?

Ruth didn't know Oswald was involved in the assassination. She only knew that he was being accused of it. Her handler could have swayed her thinking in any number of directions to remove any suspicion she might have that the CIA would kill the president. Especially back then when people trusted the government. Even today most Americans don't think the CIA would kill an American president.

 

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Therefore while I realize you do not hold she was a gunman or had foreknowledge, you do suppose she had immediate afterknowledge and committed serious witting crimes (perjury and failure to disclose knowledge, conspiracy to cover up, etc, serious crimes), and never told, on behalf of the assassins who killed a president she loved.

 

Ruth was and is highly patriotic. She kept secrets for the CIA because that is what CIA employees do. She kept secrets for the government coverup because she was told that there was evidence that the assassination was an international plot, and the government was doing whatever the could to prevent a war from occurring because of that evidence. Which, BTW, is true! She was asked to believe the truth, and to help the government prevent WW3. Which is what the government did.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

To answer your question, I doubt there was an advance plan to place Oswald in TSBD.

 

So you believe, after months of preparation, the CIA painting Oswald as a crazy communist out to kill the president, making it look like he'd met with KGB assassination chief Kostikov, and being given a $6500 down payment for killing Kennedy, etc., etc., the CIA had no plan for where the shooters would station themselves, or how they would get in our out of the building(s).

No, according to you the plotters just left it up to chance where their designated patsy would find a job.

Only for Oswald to MAGICALLY happen to get a job where the plotters needed him to be!

That's just nuts, Greg.

 

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

What do you do with all the prior job applications which by all appearances Lee tried to get? What if one of those employers had hired him? Those kinds of questions. 

 

I Imagine Ruth's handler instructed her to encourage Oswald not to take any job yet, that surely a better one would show up given a little more time.

Oh wait! That did happen, didn't it? Oswald was offered a higher paying job than the one at the TSBD, which Ruth hid from Oswald.

What she didn't know is that Oswald would have passed up that job. Because his handler had told him to wait and take a job when instructed to do so.

I know that's some speculating, but it has to be the case. Because the plotters needed Oswald to be in the TSBD... and he was! Plotters are planners, and planners don't leave things up to chance.

 

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

If there WAS an advance intent or necessity to get him into TSBD with or without his knowledge, it about only could be done by, and would require no one else than, Linnie Mae. She invites her brother up from Huntsville and sets up a TSBD job for him. Buell doesn’t need to be witting but he is in place to know the bosses there and if asked, Buell could put in a good inside word at TSBD to help Lee get hired. Then Linnie Mae tells Buell about Lee’s need for a job learned from down the street. Soft-spoken Buell helpfully makes his polite inquiry, tells Linnie Mae. Linnie Mae then makes a point of getting word to Lee via Ruth Paine at the neighbors morning coffee, of the possible job opening, Ruth will pass it on, Lee will go in, he is hired, success. No Ruth phone call needed in this scenario, it is gratuitous, and Ruth could not have gotten Buell placed in TSBD in advance anyway.

 

 

Nope. The plotters would not have done all their planning to set up Oswald (and Cuba and Russia), to case the TSBD, and prepare the shooter's entrance and escape... only then to hope the TSBD will offer Oswald a job.

 

There is just no way around this, Greg, that the plotters made sure the patsy, Oswald, was working in that building. And the evidence shows that it was Ruth who facilitated that.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Show me where I ever said any such thing? Because I never did. There are perfectly logical alternative explanations to your nonsense above, including that any plot to specifically set up Oswald would not have been undertaken after and until he'd (quite innocently) taken the job at the TSBD. The plot needn't have required his specific presence along the motorcade route. It just required some patsy's presence. It could have been anyone. And with that in mind, your jumbled logic requiring Ruth Paine and Linnie Randle to be CIA agents falls apart.

 

You're ignoring the Mexico City evidence. If you don't take that into account, you will never understand why Oswald was even involved in the assassination.

 

[James DiEugenio]

7 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Haven´t you read that one other letter that actually prooves things She was offended, and had the right to be. It was concerning another event, yet it was also something lee had done to an outsite party, they came to ruth about it. I gave it to another researcher here. Whatever, not my problem, some day maybe when one is interested in better understanding perhaps. 

Jean, I really do not even want to reply to this.

Because it shows you have not even read Carol Hewett's milestone series in which she devotes a long essay to this subject. 

Do you even know who Carol is? She is the person who broke open the Paines, along with Barb LaMonica and Steve Jones.  If she had not gotten sick, who knows the case she could have made?  She was a practicing attorney in Florida with a degree from UT at Austin. She devoted years to this subject. 

I am not picking on you. I  am just trying to inform you of some things I don't think you know.

PS Nice job Sandy. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So you believe, after months of preparation, the CIA painting Oswald as a crazy communist out to kill the president, making it look like he'd met with KGB assassination chief Kostikov, and being given a $6500 down payment for killing Kennedy, etc., etc., the CIA had no plan for where the shooters would station themselves, or how they would get in our out of the building(s).

No, according to you the plotters just left it up to chance where their designated patsy would find a job.

Only for Oswald to MAGICALLY happen to get a job where the plotters needed him to be!

That's just nuts, Greg.

I'm not sure the assassins picked the building before Oswald was hired there, no. I also am not sure Oswald had a CIA handler. And I think the Kostikov meeting was unplanned and an accident.

Larry Hancock's recent Lancer presentation argued well that Oswald was less easily handleable than often supposed, that Oswald wasn't very good at obeying orders, and questioned the idea that Oswald was being "run" by a handler as distinguished from doing his own thing, surveilled and used.    

But suppose you are right and both were true (assassins picked TSBD in advance of Oswald's hiring; Oswald had a handler who sent him there).

If you think Oswald was told by his handler to turn down all other jobs offered (but why then go interview for them at all?)--but he was told by his handler to apply and accept a job at the TSBD ... and you have Roy Truly told by his handler to make sure he hired Oswald when Oswald came in the front door to apply ... what does that have to do with Ruth?

How does that prove Ruth followed a handler's instructions to perjure under oath to the Warren Commission?

She's not necessary in that picture for anything. Oswald goes to Truly, Truly hires him, done.

Ruth's phone call not needed in this picture.

There's no evidence Ruth perjured about that phone call, and you just invoke out of thin air that it would be necessary for her to have been instructed to do so.

To paraphrase Ockham's Razor, why multiply your CIA handlers and marionette-string-controlled handlees scripted to what they are to say over the next sixty years unnecessarily? 

[Sandy Larsen]

36 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

But suppose you are right and both were true (assassins picked TSBD in advance of Oswald's hiring; Oswald had a handler who sent him there).

 

There's no reason to believe that Oswald actually met with Kostikov or went to the Cuban consulate. Had he done so, the CIA could have provided surveillance photos of him there.

Instead, they provided surveillance photos of people that the CIA wanted the FBI to think were involved with the assassination plot that the Cubans, Russians, and Oswald were supposedly hatching. (Of course, they weren't really doing that.) For example, the CIA wanted it to appear that Nikolai Leonov was one of the plotters.

Did you know that the early reports to the FBI were that Oswald and his team drove to Mexico City by car? The WC couldn't have that because it pointed to conspiracy. So they fabricated the bus rides of Oswald into and out of MC. David Josephs has exposed that fabrication.

I don't want to get hung up on this, but suffice it to say that the whole Mexico City story was fabricated except for the Oswald imposter who went to the Cuban consulate and made a scene. Everybody who saw the Oswald imposter said that he was very short (~5' 4") and had blond hair. Even J Edgar Hoover knew he was an imposter.

The purpose of the fabricated MC story was to make it look like Oswald had agreed to have his team shoot the president. And that the Cubans gave him a $6500 down payment to get it done.

Of course it was all a false flag operation designed by the CIA to blame Cuba and Russia for the assassination.

 

36 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

If you think Oswald was told by his handler to turn down all other jobs offered (but why then go interview for them at all?)--but he was told by his handler to apply and accept a job at the TSBD ... and you have Roy Truly told by his handler to make sure he hired Oswald when Oswald came in the front door to apply ... what does that have to do with Ruth?

How does that prove Ruth followed a handler's instructions to perjure under oath to the Warren Commission?

She's not necessary in that picture for anything. Oswald goes to Truly, Truly hires him, done.

 

The CIA plotters fabricated a whole story of what Oswald (supposedly) did in order to fulfill his arrangement with the Cubans and Russians. The plotters left nothing unaccounted for. Had Oswald been instructed just to show up at the TSBD, what would he have said in his interrogation had he been asked how he got the job? That he walked door-to-door asking every business along the way if they were hiring?

I suppose they could have done it that way. But a more believable story is that a friend of Ruth's gave her a tip on where Oswald could get a job.

As for why Oswald interviewed for some jobs... I didn't know he did. But if he did, I imagine that his handler didn't tell him not to look for jobs. His handler only told him to follow Ruth's recommendations. And her handler told her not to let Oswald take a job until they got back to her. When the TSBD job was ready for Oswald, that is when Ruth's handler got back to her and instructed her to suggest to Oswald to check out the TSBD for a job.

Again, I know there is some speculation here. But it has to be something like this, because the plotters needed Oswald to be at the TSBD, and he indeed was there. Because of Ruth Paine. Remember, plotters are planners and planners don't leave things up to chance. Oswald had to be there, and there is just no way of getting around that.

 

36 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

To paraphrase Ockham's Razor, why multiply your CIA handlers and marionette-string-controlled handlees scripted to what they are to say over the next sixty years unnecessarily? 

 

BTW, as far as I know, they all could have shared the same handler. Though I think not because, with multiple handlers, one not knowing what the other is doing, that makes it very difficult for any of them to put the pieces together and suspect a plot.

 

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

BTW, as far as I know, they all could have shared the same handler. Though I think not because, with multiple handlers, one not knowing what the other is doing, that makes it very difficult for any of them to put the pieces together and suspect a plot.

I know there are mysteries to the JFK assassination, and I don’t know what happened, other than JFK was shot; CE399 didn’t come from Connally’s stretcher; JFK’s head was hit with a frangible not military bullet; LHO’s rifle and fingerprints were found on the 6th floor TSBD on Nov 22; on Nov 11 Oswald had repaired and reinstalled the original crappy scope and its base mount on that rifle for apparent purpose of a conveyance to someone or sale; LHO was a mediocre shot with no practice shooting in the days and weeks prior to the assassination and no ammunition or cleaning equipment found in his belongings which is inconsistent with him shooting on Nov 22; the NAA analysis of the paraffin casts appear to establish that he did not fire the Mannlicher-Carcano that day; LHO showed no advance sign of planning to assassinate JFK or sign of animosity toward JFK, denied he did, was not provided legal counsel, and claimed he was a patsy; whoever was at the 6th floor by choice passed up a perfect and best shot at JFK on Houston before the turn on to Elm for no explicable reason in any lone nut shooter interpretation; there may have been a manipulation of the parade route to Elm and Houston at a late stage; Ruby did not kill Oswald for his reason stated; RFK was probably correct in private belief that JFK was felled by domestic opponents the only question being who and how; there was no international component to the origination and planning of the assassination; there was a false flag against Cuba attempt at exploitation of the assassination which was immediately and decisively suppressed by LBJ; Oswald was at Silvia Odio’s door on the evening of Sept 25 with two Cubans who appear now likely correctly identified for the first time by Boylan and Hancock and tie into New Orleans anti-Castro Cubans and CIA contacts as the likeliest context for a setup of Oswald; there were some witnesses killed and threatened; there cannot have been many who knew what happened; there was a conspiracy in the legal criminal sense; Oswald was an anti-authoritarian leftist who liked Castro and wanted to get to Cuba; Oswald fled evasively following the assassination; there was no large-scale unreported subornation of perjury of witnesses and Marina was not, certainly in any large-scale way, instructed by the FBI or other parties to run a two-track testimony of one false script for the record and one true set of answers kept secret; Oswald’s writings in his hand found in his belongings are authentic, consistent in ideology, and not lunatic; Oswald was intelligent, rational, without formal education and a horrible speller, all at the same time; Garrison freewheeled on to some leads by accident but did not identify or prove any solution to the assassination, was a loose cannon who accused innocent people, and was not admirable; CIA has covered up from the beginning but what and why is not entirely clear; Nixon’s unsuccessful attempt to get Helms to give him what the CIA knew about “Who shot John?” refers to the assassination even if it was an expression which in other uses didn’t; most published JFK conspiracy theories are wrong; JFK in his presidency and RFK despite heavy flaws were lights of a better path of America in the world not taken, and as a Danish photographer who travelled the South and stayed in countless homes of people told, on mantles in homes of poor blacks all across the South he saw pictures of JFK, RFK, and MLK and that can’t be faked, there was something real there lost; Ruth Paine was not a witting part of either the assassination or a coverup, did not have a handler, and has been wrongly accused and maligned. 

Apart from that, I don’t know what happened.

I can’t buy yours because it’s too outlandish. On the shelf with the other unsatisfactory solutions. My opinion.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Richard Booth]

On 11/21/2023 at 8:09 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

there's something suspicious about Michael Paine attending meetings with Oswald by groups with opposing ideologies (there isn't)

 

To me, it certainly is suspicious. Very unusual at the very least. Giving Paine the benefit of the doubt, one could say he was being sneaky and dishonest by showing up at a meeting of the Minutemen or whatever it was. Posing as a supporter to "spy" -- acting out some kind of strange amateur sleuth endeavor. Very odd.

 

[Richard Booth]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:22 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Michael—she gave no testimony that incriminated Oswald. As for physical evidence, what physical evidence do you have in mind specifically that you think Ruth should have decided not to hand over? 

Meanwhile we have Ruth Paine's Magical Mystery Garage Evidence Factory ™

[Greg Doudna]

Just now, Richard Booth said:

To me, it certainly is suspicious. Very unusual at the very least. Giving Paine the benefit of the doubt, one could say he was being sneaky and dishonest by showing up at a meeting of the Minutemen or whatever it was. Posing as a supporter to "spy" -- acting out some kind of strange amateur sleuth endeavor. Very odd.

I think Michael Paine probably was keeping the FBI informed on some things, such as Marina moving into his wife's house. To my knowledge Michael never was asked nor denied FBI contacts. Ruth denied she had any FBI contact before meeting Hosty at her front door Nov 1, and was asked whether Michael had been an FBI informant (asked Ruth but not Michael that question). Ruth answered not to her knowledge and she doubted it. 

 

[Greg Doudna]

11 minutes ago, Richard Booth said:

Meanwhile we have Ruth Paine's Magical Mystery Garage Evidence Factory ™

Just curious, why are you not labeling that "The Dallas Police Department's Magical Mystery Garage Evidence Factory"? 

Who plants evidence most of the time, if there is evidence planted? 

Why the lightning rod witch accusations zeroing in on Ruth who allowed Oswald to store his belongings there, and for whom there is not any evidence whatsoever that she planted, forged, fabricated, or had training or expertise in doing so, any physical evidence.

"No good deed goes unpunished" is right.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Richard Booth]

2 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Just curious, why are you not labeling that "The Dallas Police Department's Magical Mystery Garage Evidence Factory"? 

Who plants evidence most of the time, if there is evidence planted? 

Why the lightning rod witch accusations zeroing in on Ruth who allowed Oswald to store his belongings there, and for whom there is not any evidence whatsoever that she planted, forged, fabricated, or had training or expertise in doing so, any physical evidence?

"No good deed goes unpunished" is right.

Well, she was spying on Nicaraguans at the time the CIA was running a death squad there so forgive me if I'm suspicous of the poor innocent Quaker