Brian Baccus on Ruth Paine

[James DiEugenio]

This would not have happened without Max Good.

 

https://whowhatwhy.org/hidden-power/key-to-jfk-murder-in-the-hands-of-an-elderly-quaker-woman/

[Jonathan Cohen]

Sorry, but this yet another "such and such knew someone and they were college classmates with someone and they once went out to lunch with someone else and so that means Ruth and Michael are CIA spies." There are numerous other dubious conclusions here, including that Ruth would have been "informing on Oswald to the FBI" by giving them the "Kostin" letter, that there's something suspicious about Michael Paine attending meetings with Oswald by groups with opposing ideologies (there isn't), and, even worse, that the Paines had "very limited interactions" with Oswald (total nonsense - Ruth probably spent as much time around Oswald in 1963 as any other human being).

[Greg Doudna]

25 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Sorry, but this yet another "such and such knew someone and they were college classmates with someone and they once went out to lunch with someone else and so that means Ruth and Michael are CIA spies." There are numerous other dubious conclusions here, including that Ruth would have been "informing on Oswald to the FBI" by giving them the "Kostin" letter, that there's something suspicious about Michael Paine attending meetings with Oswald by groups with opposing ideologies (there isn't), and, even worse, that the Paines had "very limited interactions" with Oswald (total nonsense - Ruth probably spent as much time around Oswald in 1963 as any other human being).

Absolutely right. Does she know anything material related to the assassination that she has not already told? Extremely unlikely. She has talked and told the truth to the best of her ability. There is no evidence or indication otherwise. Only baseless suspicions from some villages which, traumatized over the loss of JFK and what his loss represented without adequate resolution (the trauma is real) fix on scapegoating as some primal purgation, and a factually innocent Ruth Paine, whom I doubt has ever acted intentionally to harm someone in her life, becomes “it”. 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

This would not have happened without Max Good.

 

https://whowhatwhy.org/hidden-power/key-to-jfk-murder-in-the-hands-of-an-elderly-quaker-woman/

A great starter article for those new to the subject.  Ruth's Desk Secretary and the Paine Files get a little deeper. 

[Kirk Gallaway]

48 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Only baseless suspicions from some villages which, traumatized over the loss of JFK and what his loss represented without adequate resolution (the trauma is real) fix on scapegoating as some primal purgation,

Yes, Same old rehashed stuff. Di Eugenio has tried to enshrine Ruth Paine into the forum hall of Conspiracy Supervillains for 10 years. At one point over 5 years ago, you couldn't have a real discussion about RP's innocence without being shouted down.

Max's film leaves the average viewer sympathizing more with 91 year old Ruth Paine.

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Absolutely right. Does she know anything material related to the assassination that she has not already told? Extremely unlikely. She has talked and told the truth to the best of her ability. There is no evidence or indication otherwise. Only baseless suspicions from some villages which, traumatized over the loss of JFK and what his loss represented without adequate resolution (the trauma is real) fix on scapegoating as some primal purgation, and a factually innocent Ruth Paine, whom I doubt has ever acted intentionally to harm someone in her life, becomes “it”. 

Greg, I too think she has been unfairly abused at times. But I have long had doubts about her as a result of the Oswald letter. Perhaps you can help me with this. Why did she fail to tell the DPD about it on the 22nd, and wait to the 23rd to tell Hosty? It seems obvious to me that this was not an over-sight, and that she was wittingly or unwittingly attempting to impress Hosty and/or the FBI. Has she ever addressed this, to your knowledge? I mean it could very well be she was impressed with Hosty, or even attracted to him, and that she wanted to give the letter to him to help him in his career, as opposed to giving it to some Texan in a cowboy hat. Do you have any idea why she did this? 

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Greg, I too think she has been unfairly abused at times. But I have long had doubts about her as a result of the Oswald letter. Perhaps you can help me with this. Why did she fail to tell the DPD about it on the 22nd, and wait to the 23rd to tell Hosty? It seems obvious to me that this was not an over-sight, and that she was wittingly or unwittingly attempting to impress Hosty and/or the FBI. Has she ever addressed this, to your knowledge? I mean it could very well be she was impressed with Hosty, or even attracted to him, and that she wanted to give the letter to him to help him in his career, as opposed to giving it to some Texan in a cowboy hat. Do you have any idea why she did this? 

I wouldn’t know Pat. It’s true she had started a favorable impression or friendly relationship with Hosty, and she said she had planned to give the letter to him anyway. After the assassination and Oswald was a suspect would require timely/immediate giving it, no delay, which Ruth did, just not to the DPD which treated her rudely, took her property out of her house without a warrant and over her protests, and was treating her as a suspected communist. Did she decide then to give it to Hosty whom she trusted and he could take charge of turning it over to DPD if warranted? I am not aware of Ruth having been asked or commented on this specifically. The other possibility that occurs to me is if Ruth did wonder if Lee could be a spy, did she think that FBI would be better to give the letter than local police. But thats just speculation, I don’t know. Did FBI give the Dallas Police that letter after they had it Sat Nov 23? Should they have?

[Michael Griffith]

I have not seen anyone comment on the fact that Ruth Paine acknowledged to the WC that she studied Russian at the Middlebury College language school. Intelligence agencies frequently sent people to learn Russian at Middlebury. And Middlebury was not cheap. I was once slated to attend a Hebrew course at Middlebury when I worked in military intelligence, but my unit's training funding fell through. 

I see several reasons to suspect Ruth Paine of involvement in the plot: Her "we both know who is responsible" phone call with Michael Paine. Her role in getting Oswald a job at the TSBD. Her family members who had intelligence ties. And her role in handing over questionable evidence against Oswald. 

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

22 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

And her role in handing over questionable evidence against Oswald. 

Michael—she gave no testimony that incriminated Oswald. As for physical evidence, what physical evidence do you have in mind specifically that you think Ruth should have decided not to hand over? 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Michael Griffith]

17 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

I have not seen anyone comment on the fact that Ruth Paine acknowledged to the WC that she studied Russian at the Middlebury College language school. Intelligence agencies frequently sent people to learn Russian at Middlebury. And Middlebury was not cheap. I was once slated to attend a Hebrew course at Middlebury when I worked in military intelligence, but my unit's training funding fell through. 

I see several reasons to suspect Ruth Paine of involvement in the plot: Her "we both know who is responsible" phone call with Michael Paine. Her role in getting Oswald a job at the TSBD. Her family members who had intelligence ties. And her role in handing over questionable evidence against Oswald. 

The Walker note and the Kostin letter smell to high heaven, and her delay in handing them over strikes me as suspicious. 

I don't buy her lame explanation for her "we both know who is responsible" phone call with her husband. 

[Andrew Prutsok]

And as for her authenticity, just look at all of those other Soviet immigrants and defectors she took into her home over the years.

[Jean Ceulemans]

The Walker note, when I look at the travels of that note I doubt Ruth was instrumental in it, IMO it would have travelled in a more direct way (and months later on 3/23/64 Jenner was still taking to letters to Washington from some of Ruths possessions).

The Walker note and how it travelled,  I copy this from my notes, I think it is the most recent version I had,  I have just installed back-ups to a new PC so don't shoot me if there's an error.  I would be happy to receive some corrective remarks and/or additions on the names of the agents, dates, etc)

Files JPC / My documents / JFK / WALKER / The Walker Note :

11/30/1963 (date uncertain)  Ruth Paine gives the book to Paul Barger (assumed)  Irving, Police Captain, Ruth Paine later assumed it was 1 week after the assassination, and 11/30/1963  is plausible yet uncertain, she also assumed she handed it to a Police Captain. 

11/30/1963 (date uncertain) Paul Barger, Irving, Police Captain gives the book to Leon Power, Irving Assistant Chief of Police.

12/2/1963 Leon Power, Irving, Assistant Chief of Police gives the book to John Looper, Irving, Police Detective

12/2/1963 John Looper, Irving, Police Detective gives the book to an unknown Special Agent, Secret  Service (who is to give the book to Marina), it isn’t until now that the note is allegedly found in the book (involvement Secret Service Russian language expert)

12/2/1963 Ruth Paine is visited by 2 unknown Secret Service agents, they claimed SS having found the note in the book, Ruth says she never has seen the note before

12/3/1963 FBI sent the note to FBI HQ for examination by Sebastian Latona (fingerprints / 7 persons / none of Oswald or Marina)

12/3/1963 Marina is questioned by Secret Service Agents

12/4/1963 Dallas FBI, notes on the above by Special Agents James P. Hosty and James J.Ward

12/4/1963 Special Agent, FBI, Bardwell D. Odum report (*) : states that Ruth Paine was asked about the book and the note by 2 Special Agents, Ruth says she has not seen the note before, she gave the book to a Captain (she assumed) of the Irving Police  (*)  the Odum report is dictated on 12/5/1963, and in the upper right corner is written 12/6/1963, while the report is dated 12/4/1963

12/6/1963 Katzenbach / press release / Pierre Salinger / press release / FBI Chief James L. Hanley / Head of FBI Office Dallas Office Gordon Shanklin / DPD Captain Edward Backner

12/10/1963 Marina questioned again by Secret Service Agents

12/26/1963 Memo on the above by Sorrels, SAIC, Secret Service, to Jessy Curry, Chief of Police Dallas

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 minute ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

And as for her authenticity, just look at all of those other Soviet immigrants and defectors she took into her home over the years.

Long ago my parents took in a foster girl for a year, loved and cared for that girl, did their best. It was a difficult experience and they chose not to repeat it. It does not mean they were not genuine; they were.  What nerve people have condemning Ruth Paine for what companion she chose to share her home with or not post-Marina as the case may be. I understand she reunited with Michael and lived with Michael until a later divorce, then at a later stage I think a boyfriend in there somewhere. Whose business is it and who cares. She treated Marina well while she was in her home and that’s all that matters. This is so unreasonable. 

[James DiEugenio]

The latest work on the Walker shooting by Ben Cole, and presented by him and Larry Schnapf at the Wecht Conference makes that case highly suspect.

As does the question of Oswald in Mexico City.

Ruth was instrumental in both of those episodes--AFTER THE FACT!

Edited November 22, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

16 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Sorry, but this yet another "such and such knew someone and they were college classmates with someone and they once went out to lunch with someone else and so that means Ruth and Michael are CIA spies." There are numerous other dubious conclusions here, including that Ruth would have been "informing on Oswald to the FBI" by giving them the "Kostin" letter, that there's something suspicious about Michael Paine attending meetings with Oswald by groups with opposing ideologies (there isn't), and, even worse, that the Paines had "very limited interactions" with Oswald (total nonsense - Ruth probably spent as much time around Oswald in 1963 as any other human being).

Jonathan:

Can you show me any investigation into Ruth and Michael done by the HSCA?

Can you show me where Ruth was even questioned by the HSCA?

Can you show me any interview by the ARRB of Ruth Paine?

Let me know when you find this stuff.  Thanks.