Could the back wound have been caused by a 30.06 ?

[Gil Jesus]

 

According to the autopsy face sheet, the President's back wound measured 7x4 mm.

As a bullet enters the skin, tissue accelerates radially and is displaced centrifugally. The size of the entry wound is transiently larger than the caliber of the bullet, but typically the defect reversibly contracts to a diameter smaller than the cross-sectional area of the bullet due to the highly elastic properties of skin."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9462949

In other words, the 7mm bullet hole in Kennedy's back was made by a bullet whose diameter was larger than 7mm ( 0.284 inches ). The 6.5mm bullet's diameter is only 0.264 inches., making it doubtful IMO, that the wound was created by 6.5 ammo.

As I've mentioned in my essay on the 7.65 Mauser, one of the two rifles brought into the Texas School Book Depository two days before the motorcade was a Mauser which had been converted to a 30.06. The diameter of 30.06 ammo is .308 inches, larger than 7mm and certainly capable of having made the wound.

Again, this is only my opinion based on the contracting of the skin from the wound's original size in comparison to the diameter of the ammunition.

Could this wound have been made by 30.06 ammunition ?

Edited December 5, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Mark Ulrik]

I would've been more inclined to agree with you if the smallest diameter of the wound had been 7 mm, but it seems to have been only 4 mm.

[Cliff Varnell]

4 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

According to the autopsy face sheet, the President's back wound measured 7x4 mm.

As a bullet enters the skin, tissue accelerates radially and is displaced centrifugally. The size of the entry wound is transiently larger than the caliber of the bullet, but typically the defect reversibly contracts to a diameter smaller than the cross-sectional area of the bullet due to the highly elastic properties of skin."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9462949

In other words, the 7mm bullet hole in Kennedy's back was made by a bullet whose diameter was larger than 7mm ( 0.284 inches ). The 6.5mm bullet's diameter is only 0.264 inches., making it doubtful IMO, that the wound was created by 6.5 ammo.

As I've mentioned in my essay on the 7.65 Mauser, one of the two rifles brought into the Texas School Book Depository two days before the motorcade was a Mauser which had been converted to a 30.06. The diameter of 30.06 ammo is .308 inches, larger than 7mm and certainly capable of having made the wound.

Again, this is only my opinion based on the contracting of the skin from the wound's original size in comparison to the diameter of the ammunition.

Could this wound have been made by 30.06 ammunition ?

Do 30.06 rounds leave shallow wounds in soft tissue?

[Anthony Venturella]

I've hunted deer with a 30.06, never saw a wound from a 30.06 penetrate only "to the depth of a little finger," as pathologists commented when probing JFK's back wound.

Makes me think of the late David Lifton's speculation -- that "somebody punched a hole in the back."

[Gil Jesus]

3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Do 30.06 rounds leave shallow wounds in soft tissue?

I don't know. I've never hunted with a 30.06, that's why I'm asking.

I'm wondering if an undercharged round could have entered the back.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

I don't know. I've never hunted with a 30.06, that's why I'm asking.

I'm wondering if an undercharged round could have entered the back.

SSA Glen Bennett described the back shot occurring right before the head shot(s).  So an undercharged round had to travel 90 yards thru swirling wind losing little elevation.  I’ve yet to see any proof that was possible.

[Tony Krome]

45 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

So an undercharged round had to travel 90 yards thru swirling wind losing little elevation

If a shooter was aiming at the head at that range, and due to an undercharged round, the result was an impact a little lower, would not the difference be minimal as far as penetration? In other words, if there was an undercharged round, that caused a slight drop in elevation, would it point to that round being undercharged by only a very small degree, but not enough to make a drastic difference to penetration?

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

If a shooter was aiming at the head at that range, and due to an undercharged round, the result was an impact a little lower, would not the difference be minimal as far as penetration? In other words, if there was an undercharged round, that caused a slight drop in elevation, would it point to that round being undercharged by only a very small degree, but not enough to make a drastic difference to penetration?

I haven’t seen anything to indicate this was possible.

https://www.cryptogon.com/?p=67681

<quote on> 

Former Secret Service agent, Paul Landis, found the Magic Bullet on the top of the back seat of the limo?

Undercharged round???

Mmm hmm.

Nealy 60 years after the JFK assassination, we now have Magic Bullet 2.0.

Can anyone explain to me how the possibly “undercharged” Magic Bullet 2.0 managed to hit the target at all if the person firing the rifle dialed in DOPE [Data Observed from Previous Engagements?] for a standard velocity round?

Not only did the “undercharged” Magic Bullet 2.0 have enough velocity to hit the target using DOPE for a standard round, but it then, “Dislodged from a shallow wound in the president’s back, falling back onto the limousine seat.” 

If you’re not familiar with shooting high powered rifles, run this scenario past someone who is has and note the response.

It will go something like, “No way.”

Personal experience: I’ve probably shot something like 15,000 centerfire rifle cartridges in my life, mostly 5.56, 7.62×51 and 7.62×39. Also, some larger stuff, .300 Winmag, .338, etc. How many of those do you think were “Undercharged”?

None. Zero. Zilch.

I had a few bad primers (under a handful) fail to fire in all of that time. I mostly fired old, cheap military surplus ammo and most of that was not made in the U.S. I don’t think I ever had a U.S. manufactured centerfire rifle round (Winchester, Federal, Remington, etc.) fail to fire.

How many “undercharged” centerfire rifle cartridges have you encountered in your decades of shooting?

Imagine the odds, on the big day almost 60 years ago… A defective cartridge? Tell me another one. 

Someone, somewhere might try to sell you on squib loads to explain this. I’m just here to tell you, in over forty years of shooting, it hasn’t happened to me, or any of my friends. (Somewhere on this site you can read about my wife’s cousin trying to kill a pig with a wet .22. That doesn’t count, because first, that’s rimfire, which is less reliable than centerfire and, second, it was wet.)

</q>

Edited December 5, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

It will go something like, “No way.”

That's my understanding, a round powerful enough to reach the intended target, albeit, a few inches lower, would penetrate as intended.

[Benjamin Cole]

22 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

That's my understanding, a round powerful enough to reach the intended target, albeit, a few inches lower, would penetrate as intended.

TK--

You are making reasonable statements regarding the JFKA. 

A subsonic round fired ~600-700 fps would likely penetrate a couple inches or maybe less. 

The CIA "assassination manual" even advised the use of subsonic rounds in assassinations to obscure location of shooter. 

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/docs/doc02.pdf

https://glow420.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/cia-assasin-manual.pdf (more legible) 

My own guess is the subsonic round (likely found by Landis) was perhaps a simple matter of an improperly hand-loaded bullet---the dented cartridge found in the sniper's nest. 

Remember, LHO (or other party) had only four rounds.

There is a temptation to think of the JFKA as perped by a large institution with exotic and abundant resources. But it may have been a rogue group within the Miami station of the CIA, even just two Cuban exiles-CIA assets. 

Three CIA assets, one unwittingly, perped the JFKA. Even that is a story the CIA had to snuff out, and that President Biden is snuffing out today. 

 

[Pat Speer]

From patspeer.com, Chapter 9:

Silent, But Deadly

While trying to figure out if the bullet fired in F-114 had indeed been subsonic, however, I discovered that there was an historical basis for my suspicion that a small caliber weapon firing subsonic ammunition had been used in the assassination. While reading about the CIA’s overthrow of the Guatemalan Government in 1954, I discovered that, among the supply lists, lists of communists to be killed after the take-over, and other documents released in 1997, there was a CIA Manual on Assassination. In this manual there were several relevant passages. At one point, when discussing the advantages and disadvantages of assassinating people with firearms, the manual relates "Public figures or guarded officials may be killed with great reliability and some safety if a firing point can be established prior to an official occasion. The propaganda value of this system may be high.” (Note that the propaganda chief for this operation was future Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt, who, shortly before his death, admitted an involvement in the Kennedy assassination to his son, and claimed David Morales, one of the CIA's para-military trainers for the Guatemalan Operation, and presumably one of those handing out the CIA' Manual on Assassination, was also involved.) Elsewhere, the manual deals specifically with the issue of subsonic charges, noting “pistols, submachine guns and any sort of improvised carbine or rifle which will take a low velocity cartridge can be silenced,” and then cautioning “Because permissible velocity is low, effective precision range is held to about 100 yards with rifle or carbine type weapons.”

Further confirmation came from studying the supply lists prepared for the Guatemalan op. On one such list there is the surprising item ".22 cal. rifles w/silencers." As larger caliber rifles were available, this gives a clear indication that .22 caliber rifles with silencers were a preferred assassination weapon, and that the 100 yard limit mentioned in the assassination manual was true for these weapons. While I've taken a lot of guff from shooters about this, as they all seem convinced that a sniper rifle firing a small subsonic bullet would be nearly worthless at the distances of Dealey Plaza, I suspect their concern is overstated. Geoffrey Boothroyd, the English Firearms expert who advised James Bond creator Ian Fleming on the weapons described in his books, once famously wrote Fleming: "Silencers. These I do not like. The only excuse for using one is a .22 rifle using low-velocity ammunition, i.e., below the speed of sound." Former sniper Craig Roberts, in his book Kill Zone, moreover, wrote of his suspicion that a "CIA-issued .22 caliber Model 74 Winchester silenced sniper rifle" was fired at Kennedy, wounding him in the throat. Subsequent investigation on my part revealed that, yes indeed, the Winchester 74 sniper rifle pre-dated the assassination and is a semi-automatic weapon, meaning it could be fired quite rapidly, causing separate hits on Kennedy and Connally, and creating the illusion they were hit by the same bullet. I found a photo of such a rifle, furthermore, in the 1991 book OSS Special Weapons and Equipment by H. Keith Melton, an expert on the CIA and its predecessor, the OSS. This is reproduced below:

Note that the range is 100 yards, the same as that of the assassination weapons described in the CIA Manual on assassination.

Elsewhere on the page, the advantages of such a rifle are further detailed.

"A Weapon that eliminates muzzle flash and muzzle noise offers several advantages to special forces personnel.

(1) The source of the fire is masked.

(2) The location of the weapon is difficult for the enemy to pinpoint.

(3) The enemy can not identify the numbers or type(s) of weapons firing, or their range.

(4) The weapon has less recoil and is more accurate to fire.

(5) The enemy is harassed and confused.

(6) The sniper has a psychological advantage over the enemy."

In 2007, at a swap meet, I came across an old book entitled Everyday Ballistics that gave me more reason to believe such a weapon was used on 11-22-63. This book had been the property of the U.S. Navy. In the chapter on bullet drop, it reports that a fully charged .22 long rifle bullet--the type of bullet used in the Winchester 74 rifle--would only drop a foot or so over a distance of 270 feet, the approximate distance from the roof of the Dal-Tex Building to Kennedy at frame 224 of the Zapruder film.

And that was the most it would drop. I later realized that bullet drop, as everything is relative. If a gun firing such a bullet is sighted in at 100 yards, well, that means the bullet will start out below the point of aim, then rise above it, and then drop down to hit the target at 100 yards.

But what if the rifle was sighted in at 50 yards, and the bullet wasn't fired until Kennedy was 90 yards away? How far would it drop over that extra 40 yards?

Well, a chart found on gunsmoke.com provides us the answer. The chart tracking the bullet trajectory for a subsonic .22 long rifle round fired from a rifle sighted-in at 50 yards supports that such a bullet would drop down but 5 inches below the line of sight at 90 yards.

This chart also supports Everyday Ballistics' assertion that a subsonic bullet fired at 1000 fps would suffer less wind deflection than assumed. It reflects that a 15 mph crosswind would deflect such a bullet but 2.12 inches at 90 yards. Hmmm... From this it seems clear that a well-practiced shooter firing a silenced Winchester 74 or M-16 from the Dal-Tex Building could easily have hit Kennedy, or Connally, or both.

In sum, then, my study of the evidence suggests the use of such a weapon can not be ruled out. Upon further reading about the M-16, moreover, I realized that it fired three-round bursts in its semi-automatic setting. Since the wounds to Kennedy and Connally circa frame 224 were quite possibly caused by but two bullets, I now suspect the second rifle used in the assassination was a semi-automatic weapon quite similar to the one shown above.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

TK--

You are making reasonable statements regarding the JFKA. 

A subsonic round fired ~600-700 fps would likely penetrate a couple inches or maybe less. 

And traveled thru 90 yards of swirling wind with little drop in elevation?

”No way.”

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

From patspeer.com, Chapter 9:

Silent, But Deadly

While trying to figure out if the bullet fired in F-114 had indeed been subsonic, however, I discovered that there was an historical basis for my suspicion that a small caliber weapon firing subsonic ammunition had been used in the assassination. While reading about the CIA’s overthrow of the Guatemalan Government in 1954, I discovered that, among the supply lists, lists of communists to be killed after the take-over, and other documents released in 1997, there was a CIA Manual on Assassination. In this manual there were several relevant passages. At one point, when discussing the advantages and disadvantages of assassinating people with firearms, the manual relates "Public figures or guarded officials may be killed with great reliability and some safety if a firing point can be established prior to an official occasion. The propaganda value of this system may be high.” (Note that the propaganda chief for this operation was future Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt, who, shortly before his death, admitted an involvement in the Kennedy assassination to his son, and claimed David Morales, one of the CIA's para-military trainers for the Guatemalan Operation, and presumably one of those handing out the CIA' Manual on Assassination, was also involved.) Elsewhere, the manual deals specifically with the issue of subsonic charges, noting “pistols, submachine guns and any sort of improvised carbine or rifle which will take a low velocity cartridge can be silenced,” and then cautioning “Because permissible velocity is low, effective precision range is held to about 100 yards with rifle or carbine type weapons.”

Further confirmation came from studying the supply lists prepared for the Guatemalan op. On one such list there is the surprising item ".22 cal. rifles w/silencers." As larger caliber rifles were available, this gives a clear indication that .22 caliber rifles with silencers were a preferred assassination weapon, and that the 100 yard limit mentioned in the assassination manual was true for these weapons. While I've taken a lot of guff from shooters about this, as they all seem convinced that a sniper rifle firing a small subsonic bullet would be nearly worthless at the distances of Dealey Plaza, I suspect their concern is overstated. Geoffrey Boothroyd, the English Firearms expert who advised James Bond creator Ian Fleming on the weapons described in his books, once famously wrote Fleming: "Silencers. These I do not like. The only excuse for using one is a .22 rifle using low-velocity ammunition, i.e., below the speed of sound." Former sniper Craig Roberts, in his book Kill Zone, moreover, wrote of his suspicion that a "CIA-issued .22 caliber Model 74 Winchester silenced sniper rifle" was fired at Kennedy, wounding him in the throat. Subsequent investigation on my part revealed that, yes indeed, the Winchester 74 sniper rifle pre-dated the assassination and is a semi-automatic weapon, meaning it could be fired quite rapidly, causing separate hits on Kennedy and Connally, and creating the illusion they were hit by the same bullet. I found a photo of such a rifle, furthermore, in the 1991 book OSS Special Weapons and Equipment by H. Keith Melton, an expert on the CIA and its predecessor, the OSS. This is reproduced below:

Note that the range is 100 yards, the same as that of the assassination weapons described in the CIA Manual on assassination.

Elsewhere on the page, the advantages of such a rifle are further detailed.

"A Weapon that eliminates muzzle flash and muzzle noise offers several advantages to special forces personnel.

(1) The source of the fire is masked.

(2) The location of the weapon is difficult for the enemy to pinpoint.

(3) The enemy can not identify the numbers or type(s) of weapons firing, or their range.

(4) The weapon has less recoil and is more accurate to fire.

(5) The enemy is harassed and confused.

(6) The sniper has a psychological advantage over the enemy."

In 2007, at a swap meet, I came across an old book entitled Everyday Ballistics that gave me more reason to believe such a weapon was used on 11-22-63. This book had been the property of the U.S. Navy. In the chapter on bullet drop, it reports that a fully charged .22 long rifle bullet--the type of bullet used in the Winchester 74 rifle--would only drop a foot or so over a distance of 270 feet, the approximate distance from the roof of the Dal-Tex Building to Kennedy at frame 224 of the Zapruder film.

And that was the most it would drop. I later realized that bullet drop, as everything is relative. If a gun firing such a bullet is sighted in at 100 yards, well, that means the bullet will start out below the point of aim, then rise above it, and then drop down to hit the target at 100 yards.

But what if the rifle was sighted in at 50 yards, and the bullet wasn't fired until Kennedy was 90 yards away? How far would it drop over that extra 40 yards?

Well, a chart found on gunsmoke.com provides us the answer. The chart tracking the bullet trajectory for a subsonic .22 long rifle round fired from a rifle sighted-in at 50 yards supports that such a bullet would drop down but 5 inches below the line of sight at 90 yards.

This chart also supports Everyday Ballistics' assertion that a subsonic bullet fired at 1000 fps would suffer less wind deflection than assumed. It reflects that a 15 mph crosswind would deflect such a bullet but 2.12 inches at 90 yards. Hmmm... From this it seems clear that a well-practiced shooter firing a silenced Winchester 74 or M-16 from the Dal-Tex Building could easily have hit Kennedy, or Connally, or both.

In sum, then, my study of the evidence suggests the use of such a weapon can not be ruled out. Upon further reading about the M-16, moreover, I realized that it fired three-round bursts in its semi-automatic setting. Since the wounds to Kennedy and Connally circa frame 224 were quite possibly caused by but two bullets, I now suspect the second rifle used in the assassination was a semi-automatic weapon quite similar to the one shown above.

And this weapon left a shallow wound in soft tissue?

[Ron Bulman]

My dad had a 30 ought 6. He and his boss at Marin-Marietta, an amateur gunsmith, converted a surplus military M1 in the bosses Denver basement.  I saw him shoot at least two deer with it, a mule deer in Colorado and a white tail in Texas.  I've eaten the venison of several more.  He shot for the heart, penetrating ribs, not a dense bone.  But it didn't exit the other side like a FMJ would.  It did the job necessary, destroying the heart or nearby organs, but not the meat.