LHO was in Mexico City

[Leslie Sharp]

@Benjamin Cole Is there any particular reason you ignore the eyewitness testimony of Elena Garro de Paz? Or the reports supplied by state department official (and likely CIA agent) Charles William Thomas to whom Garro not only supplied information but had befriended?

Why does the KGB angle dominate contemporary deliberations over the Mexico City sightings of Oswald?  Why not consider the confusion was always meant to distract and that Oswald was in MC for reasons other than have been uncovered to date, possibly having nothing to do with "THE" KGB?

[Benjamin Cole]

9 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

@Benjamin Cole Is there any particular reason you ignore the eyewitness testimony of Elena Garro de Paz? Or the reports supplied by state department official (and likely CIA agent) Charles William Thomas to whom Garro not only supplied information but had befriended?

Why does the KGB angle dominate contemporary deliberations over the Mexico City sightings of Oswald?  Why not consider the confusion was always meant to distract and that Oswald was in MC for reasons other than have been uncovered to date, possibly having nothing to do with "THE" KGB?

LS-

I explicitly endorse the viewpoint that LHO's visit to MC was manipulated pre-, during, and afterwards, and paperwork and information again modified post-JFKA, by multiple intel agencies, likely including the CIA, KGB, Cuban intel and Mexican intel. 

What was LHO really doing in MC for four or five days...who knows? How did he get there and back? Who knows? 

But, we have credible primary eyewitnesses, the three KGB'ers in the Russian Embassy, and Duran and Azcue in the Cuban Embassy, who all said they met the real LHO.

Azcue and Duran flatly told the HSCA they met the real LHO in MC.  

These witnesses are not "red-haired Negroes," or honeypots who never existed, or who briefly brushed by LHO in MC.

The five eyewitnesses to LHO's presence in MC are credible witnesses. 

I suspect LHO was "handled" into MC, and met with Kostikov by US intel design. I cannot prove that suspicion. 

If you have deeper verifiable insights into LHO's mission or actions in MC, bring them on.

I don't know what LHO was doing in MC, other than he visited the Cuban and Russian embassies, by multiple credible and first-person eyewitness accounts. 

 

 

 

 

[Leslie Sharp]

11 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

LS-

I explicitly endorse the viewpoint that LHO's visit to MC was manipulated pre-, during, and afterwards, and paperwork and information again modified post-JFKA, by multiple intel agencies, likely including the CIA, KGB, Cuban intel and Mexican intel. 

What was LHO really doing in MC for four or five days...who knows? How did he get there and back? Who knows? 

But, we have credible primary eyewitnesses, the three KGB'ers in the Russian Embassy, and Duran and Azcue in the Cuban Embassy, who all said they met the real LHO.

Azcue and Duran flatly told the HSCA they met the real LHO in MC.  

These witnesses are not "red-haired Negroes," or honeypots who never existed, or who briefly brushed by LHO in MC.

The five eyewitnesses to LHO's presence in MC are credible witnesses. 

I suspect LHO was "handled" into MC, and met with Kostikov by US intel design. I cannot prove that suspicion. 

If you have deeper verifiable insights into LHO's mission or actions in MC, bring them on.

I don't know what LHO was doing in MC, other than he visited the Cuban and Russian embassies, by multiple credible and first-person eyewitness accounts. 

 

 

 

 

I think you've answered my question:

These witnesses are not "red-haired Negroes," or honeypots who never existed, or who briefly brushed by LHO in MC.

The five eyewitnesses to LHO's presence in MC are credible witnesses. 

but to clarify, "honeypots" is reference to Garro?

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

I think you've answered my question:

These witnesses are not "red-haired Negroes," or honeypots who never existed, or who briefly brushed by LHO in MC.

The five eyewitnesses to LHO's presence in MC are credible witnesses. 

but to clarify, "honeypots" is reference to Garro?

I confess I have forgotten the Garro tale. 

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The KGB'ers are what I call "credible witnesses."

Allow me to explain: We cannot know for sure if the KGB'ers are telling the truth or not. I think they are. 

But, indisputably, KGB'ers are who they say they are, and they worked in the Russian Embassy at the time LHO is chronicled as visiting. 

The KGB'ers are not in the same category as Tosh Plumlees or James Files, or other "witnesses" who have no evidence or credibility they were where they say they were on the relevant dates. 

BTW, I put Paul Landis in this "credible witness" category. No one disputes he was a Secret Service officer, and in the limo of Nov. 22. Is he telling the truth? I think so.  He is not another "crank off the street." 

I am mystified that LHO being in, or not being in, MC has become some sort of point of honor, or that I lean towards the former is taken with umbrage. 

In fact, I rather suspect LHO was "handled" down into a MC meeting with Kostikov, triggered by the US intel services---for that very reason: They wanted such a meeting, as part of a biography build. 

Yes, it sure looks like LHO was impersonated while in MC, possibly by US intel, or KGB, Cuban intel, or possibly even Mexico intel.

False paperwork may have been created on LHO's stay there--indeed, to cover where LHO really was, possibly on assignment for US intel.  

The KGB itself may have made fake phone calls, in a counter-intel op. 

It is entirely reprehensible and unjustifiable that Sylvia Duran was mistreated in custody.  But she was a Cuban asset, and loyal to her cause, the way CIA'ers are loyal to theirs.  Was she always telling the truth?  

BTW, both Cuban employees Duran and Azcue told the HSCA they met the real LHO in their embassy. 

They are both lying also? They are also credible witnesses. They are who they say they are and they worked in the embassy on the relevant dates. 

So the KGB'ers and the Cuban embassy employees, all credible witnesses, are all lying. 

I tend to think LHO was in MC, the way everyone says. 

 

FWIW, while I am fairly certain he's never weighed in on this issue, I've been told by people close to John Newman--who knows the paper trail better than anyone--that he feels certain the real Oswald was in Mexico when he was purported to have been there. Now, that doesn't mean he did everything he is purported to have done. That's a different ballgame. 

[Benjamin Cole]

10 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

FWIW, while I am fairly certain he's never weighed in on this issue, I've been told by people close to John Newman--who knows the paper trail better than anyone--that he feels certain the real Oswald was in Mexico when he was purported to have been there. Now, that doesn't mean he did everything he is purported to have done. That's a different ballgame. 

I can't provide cite, but Newman once said LHO was there and also impersonated. If he has changed his mind, or fleshed out details, I don't know. 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

BTW, both Cuban employees Duran and Azcue told the HSCA they met the real LHO in their embassy.

 

Not true.

While Duran assumed that the man she spoke with was LHO, because he said he was LHO, she described him as being short (~5 ' 5" IIRC) and BLOND. (Source)

Later, when shown a photo of Oswald, she said that he wasn't the guy she'd talked to.

As for Azcue, he saw early on that the guy he talked to wasn't the Oswald he saw in the news.

Mr. CORNWELL: Directing your attention to the period of time immediately after the assassination, the day of the assassination or the day after the assassination, did you during that period of time have an occasion to see pictures of the alleged assassin in the newspapers or to observe on television the man identified at that time as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Senor AZCUE: Yes, sir, not so close to the date, not in the first few days, not immediately thereafter. Some time I calculate approximately-and I say this because I am not a great movie fan, but it was in mid-December approximately--I saw at that time the film in which Ruby appears assassinating the Oswald who was there, and I was not able to identify him and only 2 months had gone by since I had seen the Oswald who appeared at the consulate. And I had a clear mental picture because we had had an unpleasant discussion and he had not been very pleasant to me and I did not recognize when I first saw him. I did not recognize Oswald. The man who went to the consulate was a man over 30 years of age and very thin, very thin faced. And the individual I saw in the movie was a young Man, considerably younger, and a fuller face.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I don't know what LHO was doing in MC, other than he visited the Cuban and Russian embassies, by multiple credible and first-person eyewitness accounts. 

 

This is simply not true.

Ben is basing his belief largely on the words of three ex-KGB officers. Nearly everybody other than Ben says that an Oswald imposter visited the Cuban Consulate. Nearly everybody other than Ben knows that the report stating that Oswald had visited the Soviet Embassy was wholly based on a phone call made by an Oswald impersonator, and thus is illegitimate.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

51 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

This is simply not true.

Ben is basing his belief largely on the words of three ex-KGB officers. Nearly everybody other than Ben says that an Oswald imposter visited the Cuban Consulate. Nearly everybody other than Ben knows that the report stating that Oswald had visited the Soviet Embassy was wholly based on a phone call made by an Oswald impersonator, and thus is illegitimate.

 

Sandy Larsen: 

Duran and Azcue testified before the HSCA they they also met the real LHO in MC. 

[Sandy Larsen]

34 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Sandy Larsen: 

Duran and Azcue testified before the HSCA they they also met the real LHO in MC. 

 

 I just barely proved to you that that isn't true with Azcue:

Mr. CORNWELL: Directing your attention to the period of time immediately after the assassination, the day of the assassination or the day after the assassination, did you during that period of time have an occasion to see pictures of the alleged assassin in the newspapers or to observe on television the man identified at that time as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Senor AZCUE: Yes, sir, not so close to the date, not in the first few days, not immediately thereafter. Some time I calculate approximately-and I say this because I am not a great movie fan, but it was in mid-December approximately--I saw at that time the film in which Ruby appears assassinating the Oswald who was there, and I was not able to identify him and only 2 months had gone by since I had seen the Oswald who appeared at the consulate. And I had a clear mental picture because we had had an unpleasant discussion and he had not been very pleasant to me and I did not recognize when I first saw him. I did not recognize Oswald. The man who went to the consulate was a man over 30 years of age and very thin, very thin faced. And the individual I saw in the movie was a young Man, considerably younger, and a fuller face.

 

I could show you more, but I'd just be wasting my time. As I noted earlier, you are one of the most closed minded people I know. Once you've made up our mind, no amount of evidence or proof otherwise can change it.

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Benjamin Cole writes:

Quote

I contend LHO was in fact in Mexico City in September 1963.

Greg Parker contends otherwise, with a musical ending:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2815-i-contend

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 I just barely proved to you that that isn't true with Azcue:

Mr. CORNWELL: Directing your attention to the period of time immediately after the assassination, the day of the assassination or the day after the assassination, did you during that period of time have an occasion to see pictures of the alleged assassin in the newspapers or to observe on television the man identified at that time as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Senor AZCUE: Yes, sir, not so close to the date, not in the first few days, not immediately thereafter. Some time I calculate approximately-and I say this because I am not a great movie fan, but it was in mid-December approximately--I saw at that time the film in which Ruby appears assassinating the Oswald who was there, and I was not able to identify him and only 2 months had gone by since I had seen the Oswald who appeared at the consulate. And I had a clear mental picture because we had had an unpleasant discussion and he had not been very pleasant to me and I did not recognize when I first saw him. I did not recognize Oswald. The man who went to the consulate was a man over 30 years of age and very thin, very thin faced. And the individual I saw in the movie was a young Man, considerably younger, and a fuller face.

 

I could show you more, but I'd just be wasting my time. As I noted earlier, you are one of the most closed minded people I know. Once you've made up our mind, no amount of evidence or proof otherwise can change it.

 

OK hold on I mixed up Azcue with Cuban Embassy employee.

Sylvia Duran told the HSCA that the man she saw shot by Jack Ruby on television was the man who had visited her in MC. Why she says LHO is a few inches shorter and blond, I do not know. 

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/180-10142-10301.pdf

The HSCA also said the signature LHO provided to Duran looked authentic, and he provided a photo of himself, and she stapled that photo (which in fact is a photo of LHO) to his paperwork. 

"she stapled (LHO's) picture on top of each (application) and had Oswald sign each in her presence." (page 7) 

OK, so LHO provided Duran with two face shots, and then signed his name to applications in front of her. 

THE HSCA determined the signature looked authentic and the photo is of LHO. 

When you say there is no evidence of LHO being in MC, I disagree.

It was not Cuban Embassy employee Azcue, but rather employee Alfredo Mirabal, who also stated the LHO he saw in MC was the same LHO shot by Ruby. (Page 10). 

So...

1. We have three KGB employees, including Kostikov, who flatly stated on the record, filmed and recorded, they met the real LHO in MC.

2. We have Cuban Embassy employee Mirabal, who said he saw the real LHO in MC. 

3. We have Duran, who says the LHO shot on TV by Ruby was the same LHO she met. LHO also signed documents in front of her, and provided a photos himself. At the time, she accepted those photos and signatures as true. They photos do not show a blond man. 

4. We have KGB'er Oleg M. Nechiporenko's book, that describes paper work and KGB statements affirming the real LHO's presence in MC. 

So, you may not believe the evidence, and that is your right. 

I would tend to think there is evidence LHO was in MC during the relevant period, and endless spy monkey-business going on also. Shadowing, impersonation, misdirection, creating false leads, smoke and mirrors. 

That extra action might be throwing you off. 

 

 

 

 

[Leslie Sharp]

18 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I confess I have forgotten the Garro tale. 

Whether intentional or not, you dismiss Garro's eyewitness testimony at the expense of details of Thomas Eli Davis in MC at the same time with Oswald.  They were scheduled to meet at Luma on September 27.  Garro = Davis, so ignoring or deflecting from Davis while focusing exclusively on "the KGB" witnesses suggests to me you want to avoid any discussion of Madrid or North Africa?  You're not the only one in "the community," for what that's worth.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Benjamin Cole]

34 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Whether intentional or not, you dismiss Garro's eyewitness testimony at the expense of details of Thomas Eli Davis in MC at the same time with Oswald.  They were scheduled to meet at Luma on September 27.  Garro = Davis, so ignoring or deflecting from Davis while focusing exclusively on "the KGB" witnesses suggests to me you want to avoid any discussion of Madrid or North Africa?  You're not the only one in "the community," for what that's worth.

Please expand on this topic. I just don't know about it. I am not deflecting.

I don't know anything about Madrid and North Africa, or what they have to do with LHO's visit to MC. 

 

[Leslie Sharp]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:33 AM, David Josephs said:

@Benjamin Cole

From Sept 27th until the YMCA on Oct 3rd/4th, and understanding that Oswald was not in Mexico as described by the investigation, we don't really know where he was, exactly.  As there is no evidence other than the obvious that places him in/around Dallas during that week.

If he was flown in and out of Mexico to have a meeting at the Luna Hotel about 20 mins south of the Embassies area; And is only in MX for a day or at most overnight for this meeting and actually does attend the Rave party... and is returned to Dallas by the 1st...  there is no evidence in the bogus MX journey/stay in MX - or any evidence from Dallas that precludes this from occurring. 

The CiD notebook's suggestion of this meet and the substantiation from those in the Cobb/Davis extended circle, again, does not contradict the conclusions about the travel and call evidence I arrived at in my research, so I think it prudent to no longer discount the possibility... but not without this big concern:

 Why have the meeting at all, why in MX when these key players were all together in New Orleans not long before this time.  What is so meaningful or significant of THIS meeting at THAT time... and what actions result from said meeting.  If he's already being flown in.. wouldn't a photo of him have been important to help the incrimination?

If you can create bogus calls and transcripts, why can't you put a photo of him in MX into the mix and solidify your position against him to back the phone calls?

But that didn't happen.  He wasn't PROVEN to be in MX at all... and the long redacted and suppressed LITAMIL/9 reports - when finally released and to my satisfaction - supported the notion he was not there.

 

 

Leonov is very persuasive in the 1998 documentary, The Secret KGB JFK Assassination Files.

I haven't pursued in earnest, but I'm curious why there is so little readily available on Ilya Semyonovitch Pavlotsky, the ranking member of the KGB unit investigating the assassination.  Other than Mark Bridger's article in Dealey Plaza Echo, 1999, which appears to rely on the documentary which was later advanced in the O'Leary / Lee publication, The Deaths of Cold War Kings (2000), nothing has jumped out about Ilya.

Is there more to that documentary than meets the eye, particularly the misidentification of Michel Mertz? Who funded it other that those named in the credits? Those following through lines from Dallas to our contemporary political crisis might look closely at Bradley O'Leary and the NRA.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Leslie Sharp