From Dallas to Gaza-- JFK's Assassination and U.S.-Israeli History

[Sandy Larsen]

21 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

It pains me to criticize Biden's conduct during the genocidal bombing of Gaza.

 

Had Biden not shown compassion and support to Netanyahu over the 10/7 Hamas attack, thereby gaining his ear, I am certain that Netanyahu would have bombed the hell out of Gaza, north and south, without any warnings whatsoever on how the Gazans could have their lives saved. Because Netanyahu is that kind of hardliner.

It is because of Biden's efforts that thousand of Gazans' lives have been spared.

Kirk suggested that maybe it would have been better had Biden condemned Netanyahu instead, for at least that way the Americans could not be blamed for civilian casualties. In reply to that, I'll just say that for me, saving lives is more important than saving face.

 

[W. Niederhut]

41 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Had Biden not shown compassion and support to Netanyahu over the 10/7 Hamas attack, thereby gaining his ear, I am certain that Netanyahu would have bombed the hell out of Gaza, north and south, without any warnings whatsoever on how the Gazans could have their lives saved. Because Netanyahu is that kind of hardliner.

It is because of Biden's efforts that thousand of Gazans' lives have been spared.

Kirk suggested that maybe it would have been better had Biden condemned Netanyahu instead, for at least that way the Americans could not be blamed for civilian casualties. In reply to that, I'll just say that for me, saving lives is more important than saving face.

 

Sandy,

     Are you aware that Netanyahu bombed southern Gaza after advising Palestinian refugees to evacuate to southern Gaza?   I see no meaningful evidence that Biden's approach to Netanyahu's ethnic cleansing of Gaza -- including vetoing two UN cease-fire resolutions-- has resulted in any mitigation of Netanyahu's Gaza genocide.  The densely populated Gaza strip has, essentially, been bombed back to the Stone Age, with 2 million war refugees now trapped in an area the size of Heathrow Airport.

     On the contrary, Biden's willingness to furnish bombs for the annihilation of residential communities in Gaza seems to confirm the opinion of Likud Party leaders-- including Ariel Sharon and Netanyahu-- that, "Israel controls America and the Americans know it."   

      Bernie Sanders is one of the few American public officials, along with some foreign service experts in the U.S. State Department, who has been willing to openly criticize Netanyahu, and to call for conditional U.S. funding of Israel's war machine.

Edited January 3 by W. Niederhut

[Kirk Gallaway]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Had Biden not shown compassion and support to Netanyahu over the 10/7 Hamas attack, thereby gaining his ear, I am certain that Netanyahu would have bombed the hell out of Gaza, north and south, without any warnings whatsoever on how the Gazans could have their lives saved. Because Netanyahu is that kind of hardliner.

It is because of Biden's efforts that thousand of Gazans' lives have been spared.

Kirk suggested that maybe it would have been better had Biden condemned Netanyahu instead, for at least that way the Americans could not be blamed for civilian casualties. In reply to that, I'll just say that for me, saving lives is more important than saving face.

 

You're ignoring that there's an escalation Sandy. I thought Biden's response is milquetoast. How far do we go with them?  Of course it was a unilateral "precision" "surgical" drone attack that we weren't informed of beforehand. .Since you watch CNN. I checked it today. They seem to be preparing us for a greater war.  Head story: Trump, Nikki Haley, and Claudine Gray!

Of course there's this bombing in Iraq on the Soleimani anniversary. It's probably not the Israelis. I guess we'll find out.

Sandy: Kirk suggested that maybe it would have been better had Biden condemned Netanyahu instead,

I didn't  say "condemned " or anything like that involving rhetoric at all.

Sandy: I'll just say that saving lives is more important than saving face.

Saving face?, saving face with who? The vast majority of Congress agrees with you. You're in the vast majority. What is the gain here? Do you have hopes of wiping out Hamas, without having creating more Hamas in some form later?

I agree that there's no appetite here for U.S.active involvement by American troops, including me.So Joe's hands were always tied.

But it's too late anyway. It's already a human disaster on the scale of Putin's invasion of Ukraine and the Iraq War. It will take decades to rebuild and relocate all these people. Of course Israel knew that. This was no surprise to anybody.

So the gravy train funding of Israel started  60 years ago, under JFK. Is it so revolutionary to use our only real bargaining chip as negotiation, to stop funding this? Why is that off the table?

 

 

 

Edited January 3 by Kirk Gallaway

[Sandy Larsen]

9 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

     Are you aware that Netanyahu bombed southern Gaza after advising Palestinian refugees to evacuate to southern Gaza?

 

You know very well that it was much safer for a Palestinian to be in southern Gaza than northern when the bombing began, which was on October 11.

This NPR article on the later, increased bombing in southern Gaza -- dated November 18 -- indicates that as of that date 11,800 civilians had been killed in Gaza. Of those, 3600 were in areas where Israelis had warned Gazans to go.

A simple calculation indicates that an additional 4600 Gazans would have been killed had they not been warned to move south. (A rough figure, for sure, but it makes my point.)

Thanks to President Biden.

 

9 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

   I see no meaningful evidence that Biden's approach to Netanyahu's ethnic cleansing of Gaza -- including vetoing two UN cease-fire resolutions-- has resulted in any mitigation of Netanyahu's Gaza genocide.

 

I just gave you one. I could give more, but I'd be wasting my time with you.

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 12/31/2023 at 8:59 AM, W. Niederhut said:

      James DiEugenio's recent Substack essay about Gaza and JFK has inspired me to study the history of U.S. relations with Israel during the past 60 years.

       Last night, I discovered this interesting essay, From Dallas to Gaza, at a website called LA Progressive.  The author, Rick Sterling, is a Canadian American from Berkeley, California.   Probably no accident that a Canadian has a more accurate perspective on U.S. history than most Americans.

       Rather than focusing on JFK's relationship with Nasser, Sterling's essay focuses more on JFK's relationship with David Ben Gurion and right wing Zionists in Israel and the U.S.   It also discusses RFK's efforts as Attorney General to accurately register Israeli lobbyists in the U.S. as agents of a foreign government.

       Sterling also describes the disagreements that many liberal Jewish intellectuals in the U.S.-- including Albert Einstein-- had with militant, right wing Zionists in the JFK era, a subject that Robert Burrows has mentioned in our discussion on the Gaza and JFK thread.

       Needless to say, the U.S. military industrial complex and the right wing Israeli military complex (and Israeli lobby in the U.S.) have emerged victorious following the assassinations of JFK and RFK.

       This article is worth reading.

From Dallas to Gaza: How JFK’s Assassination Was Good for Zionist Israel

Kennedy wanted to steer the Jewish Zionists away from the racist, militaristic and ultra-nationalistic impulses which have led to where we are today.

https://www.laprogressive.com/the-middle-east/from-dallas-to-gaza

December 15, 2023

This far-left anti-Israeli trash can also be found in several articles published in Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian, and PLA publications.

This thread's OP is another sad example of the Far Left's attempt to project their own radical views onto JFK. 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Sandy: Kirk suggested that maybe it would have been better had Biden condemned Netanyahu instead,

I didn't  say "condemned " or anything like that involving rhetoric at all.

 

My apologies. I thought that is what you meant when you suggested that Biden take a different approach. But I do believe that that is what others here want. I mean, look at William. He thinks that Biden supports Gazan genocide!

 

2 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Sandy: I'll just say that saving lives is more important than saving face.

Saving face?, saving face with who? The vast majority of Congress agrees with you. You're in the vast majority. What is the gain here? Do you have hopes of wiping out Hamas, without having creating more Hamas in some form later?

 

Saving face in the eyes of the international community, which at the moment is blaming both Israel and the U.S. for the mass killing in Gaza. I was responding to the following statement you made:

But as far as U.S. policy is concerned , why not stop the cycle of supplying [Israel] arms to necessitate our humanitarian efforts and just pursue the  path of blamelessness?

I was saying that it is more important to save lives than to look (or be) blameless

 

2 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

So the gravy train funding of Israel started  60 years ago, under JFK. Is it so revolutionary to use our only real bargaining chip as negotiation, to stop funding this? Why is that off the table?

 

I don't know if it is off the table.

What I do know is that Israel is an important ally of ours in the middle east and there are more experienced and wiser people than you or I who should be making decisions like that. I believe that Biden is one of them. I don't think Bernie Sanders is, IMO.
 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

You're ignoring that there's an escalation Sandy. I thought Biden's response is milquetoast. How far do we go with them?  Of course it was a unilateral "precision" "surgical" drone attack that we weren't informed of beforehand. .Since you watch CNN. I checked it today. They seem to be preparing us for a greater war.  Head story: Trump, Nikki Haley, and Claudine Gray!

 

Kirk,

You seem to be  unaware that Biden is not on board with continuing the war as it is, let alone an escalation.

Now, here is what Biden is really doing. Excerpt from this NY Times Dec. 31 article:

During a tense conversation a week ago, Mr. Biden pressed Mr. Netanyahu to scale back the war to a surgical operation relying more on special forces raids targeting Hamas leaders and tunnels than wide-scale bombing. The Israeli leader then sent his right-hand adviser, Ron Dermer, to Washington for what ended up being a nearly four-hour meeting at the White House the day after Christmas, where he assured Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser, that Israel would soon shift to the targeted phase that Mr. Biden has been urging.

The first signs of such a shift could be seen in the coming weeks as Israeli forces wrap up operations in northern Gaza and begin withdrawing many troops from that area, Mr. Dermer told them. But he did not give a firm timetable, and the Americans pressed him to begin the transition sooner rather than later. Mr. Blinken plans to head back to Israel in early January, when Israeli officials hope to give him a decision on next steps.

At the same time, Mr. Biden’s team has been quietly working to negotiate a new hostage deal. William J. Burns, the C.I.A. director, met with his Israeli counterpart and Qatar’s prime minister in Warsaw earlier in December to advance a proposal for a seven-day halt to the fighting in exchange for the release of another 35 to 40 people seized on Oct. 7, including civilian women, badly wounded men and other men over 60 years old.

Mr. Biden has relied on officials including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken, center, and Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser, right, as he responds to the war.

And there are even quieter efforts underway to negotiate through intermediaries an arrangement with Hezbollah to pull back from the area near Lebanon’s border with Israel, preventing the eruption of a wider war in the region and allowing tens of thousands of Israelis who have fled their homes to return.

This account of the relationship between the United States and Israel over the past 12 weeks is based on multiple interviews and trips to the region with key American and Israeli officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to share details of internal conversations and deliberations. It is a complicated story where officials on both sides say public assumptions do not always match the private reality.

Fears of a Wider War

The first week after the attack was the most volatile and dangerous. Mr. Biden’s biggest fear, according to advisers, was an expanded war in which Iran would empower proxies in addition to Hamas to attack Israel, or Israel would launch a pre-emptive war against such forces.

(Bolding mine.)

 

This is complicated stuff, and in response what I see here is a bunch of armchair quarterbacking. To which I just shake my head.

 

[W. Niederhut]

5 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

You're ignoring that there's an escalation Sandy. I thought Biden's response is milquetoast. How far do we go with them?  Of course it was a unilateral "precision" "surgical" drone attack that we weren't informed of beforehand. .Since you watch CNN. I checked it today. They seem to be preparing us for a greater war.  Head story: Trump, Nikki Haley, and Claudine Gray!

Of course there's this bombing in Iraq on the Soleimani anniversary. It's probably not the Israelis. I guess we'll find out.

Sandy: Kirk suggested that maybe it would have been better had Biden condemned Netanyahu instead,

I didn't  say "condemned " or anything like that involving rhetoric at all.

Sandy: I'll just say that saving lives is more important than saving face.

Saving face?, saving face with who? The vast majority of Congress agrees with you. You're in the vast majority. What is the gain here? Do you have hopes of wiping out Hamas, without having creating more Hamas in some form later?

I agree that there's no appetite here for U.S.active involvement by American troops, including me.So Joe's hands were always tied.

But it's too late anyway. It's already a human disaster on the scale of Putin's invasion of Ukraine and the Iraq War. It will take decades to rebuild and relocate all these people. Of course Israel knew that. This was no surprise to anybody.

So the gravy train funding of Israel started  60 years ago, under JFK. Is it so revolutionary to use our only real bargaining chip as negotiation, to stop funding this? Why is that off the table?

 

 

 

Kirk,

     I agree with most of your points here, except for the claim that the "gravy train funding of Israel started 60 years ago, under JFK."   

    On the contrary, it looks like the U.S.-to-Israel gravy train started rolling, in earnest, during the Ford and Carter administrations.  (See graph below)

[James DiEugenio]

William:

Thanks for posting that chart.

As you can see it was under Nixon, Ford and Carter that the aid to Israel mushroomed to an astronomical point.

And it was under Nixon that the oil embargo began.

PS: I should add, the Israelis are now calling for Palestinian voluntary emigration out of Gaza. 

Edited January 4 by James DiEugenio

[Kirk Gallaway]

Interesting W. Now I'm getting all sorts of conflicting info. That combined total of aid since 1948 at 254 billion is probably the highest total I've seen. The most common consensus is around 150 billion total  over the 75 years.  There's no doubt about it, a huge spike  came in the 70's, never to return. And that outrageous spike in the late 70's is probably us paying Egypt and Israel to abide by the Mideast Peace Accords.

 There is an increase during the JFK years,  but it looks  puny compared to what happened in the 70's, as a lot of U.S. spending charts do.

 

.

I like to use Reuter's  for stats, but they show an overall  total up to 2010 about half yours. That seems to be the range of an eighth to a quarter trillion in total aid. I don't know why there's such a spread.

 

 

 

Sandy posted:

Fears of a Wider War

The first week after the attack was the most volatile and dangerous. Mr. Biden’s biggest fear, according to advisers, was an expanded war in which Iran would empower proxies in addition to Hamas to attack Israel, or Israel would launch a pre-emptive war against such forces.

 I get it Sandy. I'm not asking you to be sole defender of Joe Biden, but the Israeli unilateral operation last night going into Lebanon to kill that Hamas leader in Beirut is doing exactly what this is saying is Joe Biden's greatest fear. If anything should make him put a foot down, that should be it.

[Robert Burrows]

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

My apologies. I thought that is what you meant when you suggested that Biden take a different approach. But I do believe that that is what others here want. I mean, look at William. He thinks that Biden supports Gazan genocide!

 

 

Saving face in the eyes of the international community, which at the moment is blaming both Israel and the U.S. for the mass killing in Gaza. I was responding to the following statement you made:

But as far as U.S. policy is concerned , why not stop the cycle of supplying [Israel] arms to necessitate our humanitarian efforts and just pursue the  path of blamelessness?

I was saying that it is more important to save lives than to look (or be) blameless

 

 

I don't know if it is off the table.

What I do know is that Israel is an important ally of ours in the middle east and there are more experienced and wiser people than you or I who should be making decisions like that. I believe that Biden is one of them. I don't think Bernie Sanders is, IMO.
 

 

If your friend wanted to kill one of his perceived enemies, and your friend asked you to provide the gun and the bullets to accomplish his goal, I'd have to say that you support the murder of your friend's enemy. 

[Sandy Larsen]

10 minutes ago, Robert Burrows said:

If your friend wanted to kill one of his perceived enemies, and your friend asked you to provide the gun and the bullets to accomplish his goal, I'd have to say that you support the murder of your friend's enemy. 

 

Show me where Netanyahu asked Biden for weapons to kill civilians.

You can't because Netanyahu didn't do that.

Your analogy is faulty.

 

[Robert Burrows]

14 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Show me where Netanyahu asked Biden for weapons to kill civilians.

You can't because Netanyahu didn't do that.

Your analogy is faulty.

 

It is evident to anyone with eyes and ears that the Israeli government considers ALL Palestinians as legitimate military targets. It's a shame that you can't see that.

You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.”

-War criminal Benjamin Netanyahu. 

Edited January 4 by Robert Burrows

[Sandy Larsen]

50 minutes ago, Robert Burrows said:

It is evident to anyone with eyes and ears that the Israeli government considers ALL Palestinians as legitimate military targets. It's a shame that you can't see that.

 

Of course I see that. I don't defend the Israeli government, I defend Biden. Somehow you don't see the difference.

 

 

[Sean Coleman]

Silly question(s) maybe….WHY does the US prop up Israel? Isn’t it a big boy now? Can’t it fight it its own battles on its own? Has this not created the (ongoing) anti US resentment in the Middle East? 
Domino effect? Dunno. Madness.