From Dallas to Gaza-- JFK's Assassination and U.S.-Israeli History

[Sandy Larsen]

57 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

We don't really know what Biden's said, in private to Netanyahu, but he should have escalated the pressure much sooner than he has.

 

What can Biden do to pressure Netanyahu into doing something he doesn't want to do?

I think the Netanyahu thrives on external pressure.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Here's a guy who claims to know what Biden's strategy with Netanyahu is. I'm copying the whole article because I think it's behind a paywall (that I successfully cracked):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/12/biden-netanyahu-geopolitics-israel-hamas-war/676357/

 

Biden’s Smart Strategy for Outmaneuvering Bibi

Netanyahu has deftly navigated multiple Democratic presidents. Biden is trying to change that.

By Yair Rosenberg

The fundamental problem for American presidents who have attempted to work with Benjamin Netanyahu is that Benjamin Netanyahu does not care what American presidents think. An exceptional English orator who was raised in Philadelphia, Netanyahu believes that he can outmaneuver and outlast American politicians on their own turf. “I know America,” he said in a private 2001 conversation that later leaked. “America is something that can easily be moved.” This attitude constituted a sharp break; in the past, even hard-line politicians like the maverick general turned premier Ariel Sharon responded to pressure from American presidents.

But during Bill Clinton’s presidency and again during Barack Obama’s, Netanyahu changed the equation. He repeatedly blew off American entreaties on issues including the peace process and Iran, and turned his willingness to stand up to U.S. presidents into an electoral selling point with his base. Faced with this unprecedented recalcitrance, different Democratic administrations tried different tactics for wrangling Bibi. Some attempted to compel his compliance with hard public pressure, only to have Netanyahu wait out a U.S.-imposed settlement freeze, then agitate against the Iran nuclear deal in Congress and the American media. Others attempted to settle disputes privately with Netanyahu, on the assumption that the Israeli leader would respond better if not openly antagonized.

Yair Rosenberg: The day after Netanyahu

None of this worked and none of it arrested Netanyahu’s drift further to the right. As both vice president and chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Joe Biden had a front-row seat to these failures. So did his close-knit foreign-policy team, including longtime staffers such as Secretary of State Antony Blinken and National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan. Recognizing the errors of the past, they have charted a different course aimed at outmaneuvering Netanyahu, seeking to succeed where their predecessors did not. This approach predates the current Gaza conflict, but has reached full expression in the past months. It explains why Biden has full-throatedly supported Israel against Hamas while simultaneously assailing the country’s hard-right governing coalition. And it offers a glimpse at the administration’s intended endgame for the war—and for Netanyahu himself.

In 2015, I visited another country with an ascendant right-wing populist leader: Hungary. Today, the country is essentially aligned with Russia against America and its allies. At the time, its prime minister, Viktor Orbán, was escalating his rhetoric against the European Union and the West. As part of the trip, my group met with officials at the American embassy, who explained their impossible predicament: Whenever Western countries would publicly pressure Orbán on his policies, he would refashion that pressure into electoral support, leaving his critics with no good options. Stay silent and he would win; speak up and he would also win.

Right-wing populists such as Orbán and Netanyahu thrive on posturing against outside antagonists, using external criticism to bolster their bona fides as strongmen who can stand up to the international community. This insight has shaped Biden’s approach to Netanyahu—not by preventing the president from publicly fighting with the prime minister, but by influencing which fights he picks. Simply put, Biden has opted to challenge Netanyahu on issues that splinter his support rather than consolidate it. In practice, this means strategically targeting policies where Netanyahu is on the wrong side of Israeli public opinion and forcing him to choose between his hard-right partners and the rest of the country.

Netanyahu’s disastrous attempt to overhaul the Israeli judiciary offers a case in point. The proposed legislation was drafted by right-wing hard-liners with no opposition input and would have subordinated Israel’s courts to its parliament. The attempted power grab provoked the largest sustained protest movement in Israeli history. Polls repeatedly showed that most Israelis opposed the overhaul and wanted lawmakers to come up with new compromise reforms conceived by consensus. And so that’s precisely what the Biden administration began calling for.

“Hopefully, the prime minister will act in a way that he is going to try to work out some genuine compromise,” Biden told reporters in March. “But that remains to be seen.” In July, he repeated the same point to Netanyahu, then reiterated it to the press: “The focus should be on pulling people together and finding consensus.” As the State Department emphasized at the time, “We believe that fundamental changes should be pursued with the broadest possible base of support.” By placing himself firmly on the side of the Israeli majority, Biden was able to prevent Netanyahu from turning his criticism into an electoral asset. After all, it’s hard to paint someone as anti-Israel, as Netanyahu once did with Obama, when they are expressing the opinion of most Israelis.

Biden understands that Netanyahu’s position is a precarious one. His governing coalition received just 48.4 percent of the vote, and took power only because of a quirk of the Israeli electoral system. The coalition relies on an alliance of unpopular far-right parties to stay afloat, whom Netanyahu must appease to remain in office. Biden has exploited this weakness and repeatedly poked at it. Rather than directly confronting Netanyahu, he has called out his extremist partners and in this way heightened the contradictions within Netanyahu’s coalition, undermining its stability and gradually eroding its support in the polls.

In July, Biden told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria that Netanyahu’s government has “the most extremist members of cabinets that I’ve seen” in Israel, noting that “I go all the way back to Golda Meir.” This past week, at a campaign event hosted by a former chair of AIPAC, the pro-Israel lobbying group, Biden went even further, singling out a far-right minister by name. “This is the most conservative government in Israel’s history,” the president said. Itamar “Ben-Gvir and company and the new folks, they don’t want anything remotely approaching a two-state solution.” This was Biden’s approach in action: criticizing Israel during wartime in front of a pro-Israel crowd, and doing so in a way that nonetheless denied Netanyahu any opening. As long as it’s Biden versus Ben-Gvir, rather than Biden versus Bibi, the president holds the upper hand.

Biden has brought the same strategy to bear on the issue of settler violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, which has accelerated under the cover of Israel’s campaign in Gaza. Netanyahu’s coalition is unable to clamp down on these extremists and their terrorism because it is beholden to these extremists. But most Israelis have no desire to mortgage the security of Israel and its indispensable relationship to the United States in favor of some far-flung hilltop settlers in West Bank regions that few Israelis could locate on a map.

Knowing this, Biden has begun unrolling a series of unilateral measures intended to raise the price of settler violence and pit Netanyahu and his allies against the Israeli public. Earlier this month, the administration announced visa bans on those implicated in settler violence, spurring similar actions by the EU, Britain, and France. “We have underscored to the Israeli government the need to do more to hold accountable extremist settlers who have committed violent attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank,” Blinken said. “As President Biden has repeatedly said, those attacks are unacceptable.” This past week, the U.S. froze the sale of more than 20,000 M16 rifles to Israel over concerns that they might find their way into the hands of violent settlers.

Hamas’s October 7 slaughter has put Biden’s approach to the ultimate test. Like most Israelis, he wants to see Hamas vanquished. And like most Israelis, he does not trust Netanyahu and his far-right allies to do it. This has left the president with few appealing options. Publicly denying Israel support during what it sees as an existential war wouldn’t just go against Biden’s personal values. It would collapse all the credibility he has accrued with the Israeli public through his careful diplomacy during his presidency. And it would give Netanyahu the American antagonist he desperately craves, providing the floundering premier with a lifeline he would use to reunite the right behind him.

Franklin Foer: Inside Biden’s ‘Hug Bibi’ strategy

To avoid this outcome, Biden has backed Israel’s military campaign, but worked nonstop to shape its contours and limit its fallout on civilians and the rest of the region, tapping into the reservoir of goodwill he has built with the Israeli public. The president has also upped the pressure on Netanyahu by assailing his coalition partners and explicitly calling for a new, more moderate Israeli government. U.S. officials have leaked that they think Netanyahu will not last, and Biden has told the Israeli leader to think about what lessons he’d impart to his successor.

In other words, Biden has once again placed himself on the side of the Israeli majority, in order to undermine Netanyahu and shape the political future of the entire country. It’s one of the biggest bets of his presidency, and when the guns finally fall silent, it could determine the fate of the broader Middle East.

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

Sandy,  In November, We sent them 14.5  billion in aid among our own spending cuts for us! Plus about 4 billion every year. And they have a higher standard of living than we do!

Just last week Biden  bypassed Congress for the second time to giving them another $147.5 billion! Why is he going so far? Is this a clever charade!

Obviously I don't know everything on the ground., and I don't pretend to. Under the current circumstances, without a expanded regional War. I'd bargain hard and threaten to pull it.  But even if the U.S. were to pull all it's Defense support. i don't think that would stop the IDF. But at least they'd have to completely own their actions in the world of public opinion. That's more of a lonely road to take then people think. And there are already a lot of people in Israel who throughout the past have wanted a Palestinian state. Not that that's really popular there now! But sometimes exceptional times do require exceptional actions. Though it won't happen soon!

But as far as U.S. policy is concerned , why not stop the cycle of supplying them arms to necessitate our humanitarian efforts and just pursue the  path of blamelessness? And be as involved as we can be, in humanitarian efforts.

That's a good article. I have noted Biden playing up the extremity of Bibi's cabinet, knowing he does have sympathy among a good number of the Israeli public.  He's also criticized violence by settlers on the West Bank. Did you see he lost his Supreme Court battle to further consolidate his power? That's a good sign.

It's true Biden has to be nuanced about it. The first goal is to get Bibi out of office. He's been around since the 80's. He's like the Israeli Trump, but much more sophisticated ,super slick and super intelligent, and speaks English like I thought maybe a guy from Ohio. He could be like Putin, waiting for a better deal with Trump. The truth is, support for Israel is much more popular in Congress than aid to Ukraine now.  But that's not going to last forever.

 

[Paul Bacon]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Here's a guy who claims to know what Biden's strategy with Netanyahu is. I'm copying the whole article because I think it's behind a paywall (that I successfully cracked):

Thanks for this article Sandy.  I, too, believe there is much going on behind the scenes than we are privy to.  Unlike Trump, Biden is completely capable of playing 3D chess.  And, for what it's worth, I'm with you in your defense of Biden, though I'm absolutely horrified at the suffering in Gaza.

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Paul Bacon said:

Thanks for this article Sandy.  I, too, believe there is much going on behind the scenes than we are privy to.  Unlike Trump, Biden is completely capable of playing 3D chess.  And, for what it's worth, I'm with you in your defense of Biden, though I'm absolutely horrified at the suffering in Gaza.

 

Thanks Paul. It's good to know that I'm not the only one to recognize that Biden is engaged in a tough balancing act. Kirk gets it too. Biden has great deal of experience in foreign affairs, and specifically dealing with Netanyahu. He's also a decent man who I don't think would shape his actions in order to get reelected at the expense of suffering Gazans.

In short, I trust Biden on how best to handle the current situation far, far more than I trust any forum member.

 

[W. Niederhut]

      I mentioned to Sandy in November (at the Water Cooler) that Biden's support for Operation Bomb-a-Baby-for-Bibi was only the second time I have been disappointed with Biden's Presidential decisions-- the first being his appalling refusal to release the JFK records. 

      So, count me among the 30% or more of Democrats (the Progressives) who are disappointed with Biden for colluding in Netanyahu's Gaza genocide.  It's an historic disgrace.

       Bernie Sanders and the Progressives are the only people (other than Muslims) in the U.S. who have been willing to honestly criticize what Netanyahu and the Likudniks are doing in Gaza and the West Bank.  It has validated my support for Bernie in our past two Democratic primaries here in Colorado.

        Here's Mehdi Hasan's accurate counter-argument to the above claim that Biden has cleverly manipulated Netanyahu since October 7th -- rather than functioning as Israel's latest POTUS puppet.

Biden Ukraine Statement Highlights Hypocrisy on Gaza (commondreams.org)

 

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

But as far as U.S. policy is concerned , why not stop the cycle of supplying them arms to necessitate our humanitarian efforts and just pursue the  path of blamelessness? And be as involved as we can be, in humanitarian efforts.

 

Kirk,

As I've said a number of times, one of Biden's goals was to cozy up to Netanyahu in order to gain his ear and temper his actions in the war. It worked! Not as well as we would have liked, but Netanyahu did take some actions that reduced civilian casualties. Withholding arms would have only angered Netanyahu, and this would have ended any cooperation he had given Biden.

Since the ground war in southern Gaza began, there's been no way of knowing (AFAIK) whether or not Netanyahu is taking any measures at all to reduce civilian casualties. Biden probably does know because he receives intelligence reports. When the time comes that Netanyahu is no longer giving anything to Biden, that would be an appropriate time for Biden to quit supporting him.

On the other hand, that is probably an overly simplistic calculation to make. Israel is an important American ally in the region. And there have been other conflicts brewing there. It's an extremely complicated balancing act.

The DoD has war game simulators designed to predict the outcomes of wars. They certainly are quite sophisticated by now, having been used for the last fifty years. I wonder if the State Department has similar simulators designed to predict the outcome of taking specific diplomatic measures. Something like that would be useful in determining how best to handle Israel.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

...Biden's support for Operation Bomb-a-Baby-for-Bibi...

 

More anti-Biden propaganda.

Biden doesn't support bombing babies. Shame on you William for saying that.

 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

More anti-Biden propaganda.

Biden doesn't support bombing babies. Shame on you William for saying that.

 

Sandy,

   Please stop posting this false trope about alleged "propaganda." 

   I post facts and evidence-based hypotheses.

   You, yourself, have admitted on this thread that Netanyahu's bombing of Gaza constitutes genocide.

    And you have also admitted that Biden has furnished the bombs.

    So, it's a reductio ad absurdum for you to insist that Biden has not colluded in the genocide.

 

Edited January 2 by W. Niederhut

[Sandy Larsen]

3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

   Please stop posting this false trope about alleged "propaganda." 

 

You referred to "Biden's support for Operation Bomb-a-Baby-for-Bibi."

That is a lie. Biden doesn't support the bombing of babies.

 

3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

   I post facts and evidence-based hypotheses.

 

I post common sense. Biden doesn't support the bombing of babies.

Until you have proof that Biden supports the bombing of babies, I will continue to argue against your stupid and offensive hypothesis.

 

3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

   You, yourself, have admitted on this thread that Netanyahu's bombing of Gaza constitutes genocide.

 

That's true. But Biden is not Netanyahu.

 

3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

    And you have also admitted that Biden has furnished the bombs.

 

I said that he furnished bombs for the purpose of bombing Hamas militants. Not babies.

 

3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

     So, it's a reductio ad absurdum for you to insist that Biden has not colluded in the genocide.

 

If that is so, then YOU also support the bombing of babies. Because -- using your own (flawed) reasoning -- you colluded in the genocide when you you paid federal taxes, some of which paid for bombs that kill babies.

But, I will defend you against your own argument. Neither you nor Biden supports the bombing of babies.

 

[W. Niederhut]

        Incidentally, Sandy, you must surely know that I have been one of the most vocal critics of actual "anti-Biden propaganda" on this forum.  What I post ain't it.

         It pains me to criticize Biden's conduct during the genocidal bombing of Gaza.

         I'm genuinely disappointed with the man, along with 37% of my fellow liberals who voted for Joe in 2020, and will probably vote for him again in 2024.  

         My hunch is that we 37% are the Democratic Progressives-- the 21st century torch bearers of the liberal, Democratic legacy of JFK and RFK who haven't been hijacked by Wall Street, AIPAC, and the military industrial complex.

Edited January 2 by W. Niederhut

[James DiEugenio]

William:

Thanks for posting that article.

Nice one.

[Ron Bulman]

7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

 My hunch is that we 37% are the Democratic Progressives-- the 21st century torch bearers of the liberal, Democratic legacy of JFK and RFK who haven't been hijacked by Wall Street, AIPAC, and the military industrial complex.

I'm not well versed in the political/historical aspects of this conversation, but I agree with this statement. 

[W. Niederhut]

These poll numbers today have restored my faith in the people of Israel.

Shalom aleichem!

(Reuters.com won't let me post the link.)

Only 15% of Israelis want Netanyahu to keep job after Gaza war, poll finds

January 2, 2023

Edited January 3 by W. Niederhut

[Kirk Gallaway]

Bernie Sanders calls on Congress to block funding to Israel

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/02/bernie-sanders-reject-aid-to-israel

Looks like Bernie finally read my piece last night. heh heh

I've been a bit disappointed with him about the Ceasefire action, but it's a start.

And now they start attacks in Beirut! So Israel is escalating, and are we along for the ride?

Let's see what Joe's got?

WASHINGTON—President Biden urged Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to halt a pre-emptive strike against Hezbollah forces in Lebanon days after Hamas militants' Oct. 7 assault on southern Israel, warning that such an attack could spark a wider regional war.

Oooooooo!- Yeah, no sh-t Joe!!  Like no one's ever considered that before?

It looks like Joe's better shift into Operation Trojan Horse phase 2 pronto!

Only 15% of Israelis want Netanyahu to keep job after Gaza war, poll finds

Interesting W.  I know it went down in the 20's a week after the Hamas attack.  The only problem with that is Bibi determines when the war is over. I don't know enough about the prospects for change in their Parliamentary system.

But we extol Israel as being the only Democracy in the region, and honestly I don't have a lot of faith that the path to self rule for  the Palestinians will be easy because they've historically miscalculated their support and made every existential bad choice they could make, and then make them over and over again!.

But how good is Israeli self rule? They've had a right wing wacko as Prime Minister for 17 of the last 27 years!!  Imagine having Trump for that long? It's time for the good people of Israel to stand up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3 by Kirk Gallaway