The Anonymous Phone Call to the Tippits of Connecticut

[Geo Kozma]

15 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Okay, thank you.  But the FBI report I cited doesn't say anything about chemistry.  It says the Gardos son is studying physics, and has almost completed his degree.  That's in 1959.  

 

 

hm i may have made a mistake in switching the sudies and the years ...but the main point in the family member claim is that he studied (maybe after the physics etc) to be a diplomat and he stayed a diplomat- (spy) whatever else he studied earlier.

[Geo Kozma]

On 3/16/2024 at 3:41 PM, Matt Cloud said:

John -- you keep making accusations of what you perceive as relevant or irrelevant. 

But, Matt, it needs  two totally different mindset - who is or is not a "mole in the Cold war" needs some impotant psychological insights which are not needed in finding factoids about the protagonists or sidekicks in the drama of the Multi-Oswald dramas.

 

 

 

Edited March 20 by Geo Kozma
typos and clarity

[Matt Cloud]

8 hours ago, Geo Kozma said:

hm i may have made a mistake in switching the sudies and the years ...but the main point in the family member claim is that he studied (maybe after the physics etc) to be a diplomat and he stayed a diplomat- (spy) whatever else he studied earlier.

Yes.  I understand and the point is valid, that the Grados son became a Hungarian diplomat evidently, which for the East (and the West) often is synonymous with espionage.  There is no conflict with the thesis that that son may have been at some point in the chronology an Oswald double, or help to facilitate the Oswald Project.  One obvious point of use for him in the operation is possibly going to USSR from Hungary in November 1959, as that FBI memo talks around, at same time that the Texas Oswald is trying to defect.

[John Kowalski]

20 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

If the only way to answer the issue immediately above involves printed Manhattan telephone directories, can we find an inexpensive NYC researcher willing to go to the NYPL and search for us?  I’ll try to contact the library next week about this.

Can you think of any other relevant issues I’ve neglected to list above?  I’d like to keep a running list of these issues.

Jim:

Even though we do not know his birth name I would add refugee societies to the list. These would include Hungarian immigrants providing assistance to refugees from Hungary, the American Red Cross and the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration which provided relief and resettlement camps for war victims. Their headquarters was in NYC. They are no longer in existence but their documents are at the United Nations archives. 

Let me contact the NYPL before looking for a researcher. Have a list of items from the Weinstock papers that I want to   review, and will add the New York telephone directory for 1945-1949 to the list. Will also inquire about Yorkville community newspapers and alternatives to the city directory.

Edited March 17 by John Kowalski

[John Kowalski]

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Can you think of any other relevant issues I’ve neglected to list above?  I’d like to keep a running list of these issues.

Jim:

Was Robert Oswald's wife Hungarian? if yes add her to your list.

[Matt Cloud]

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Even though we do not know his birth name I would add refugee societies to the list. These would include Hungarian immigrants providing assistance to refugees from Hungary, the American Red Cross and the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration which provided relief and resettlement camps for war victims. Their headquarters was in NYC. They are no longer in existence but their documents are at the United Nations archives. 

Let me contact the NYPL before looking for a researcher. Have a list of items from the Weinstock papers that I want to   review, and will add the New York telephone directory for 1945-1949 to the list. Will also inquire about Yorkville community newspapers and alternatives to the city directory.

Hope this isn't too Cold War-centric, but you might check the records of Leo Cherne's International Rescue Committee (IRC), whom Oswald wrote in 1962.  That's a coincidence.  They did a lot of Hungarian refugee work beginning in 1948.  

 

https://www.rescue.org/sites/default/files/document/999/abriefhistoryoftheirc0.pdf

"The Iron Curtain descends On 5 March 1946, Winston Churchill, declared: “An Iron Curtain has descended across the Continent. Beyond that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of central and eastern Europe.” Soon, a common pattern became clear: mass arrests, torture, new concentration camps, killing. Every day, democratic-minded people took flight and, by 1948, the death-knell of democracy in East Europe was sounded when Soviet dictated regimes supplanted the last of the free governments. The IRC quickly developed a network of refugee programmes that included emergency relief, the establishment of hospitals and children’s centres and U.S. resettlement. Problems multiplied with the Soviet blockade of free Berlin that threatened millions with starvation. An IRC appeal raised funds sufficient to ship 4,224,000 pounds of essential food to the beleaguered Berliners. Meanwhile, refugees were pouring out from Czechoslovakia, Poland. Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Albania and the Baltic states. The IRC continued steadily to expand its emergency relief, health, childcare and educational programmes in Germany, Austria, Italy, France and Belgium. Exiles were helped to integrate in their new environments and thousands were resettled in the United States."

 

Cherne's CIA alias include Leo Chernetsky and Bruce Mastrocola.  He had 5412 "Special Group" clearance.

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/pseudodb.php

 

Chernetsky, LeopoldoLeo Cherne was a lawyer, economist, US policy advocate, and he advised multiple directors of the CIA.

CATEGORY: alias

DISCUSSION:

Leopoldo Chernetsky was actually Cherne's original name before the family changed it during 1929.

SOURCES:

1994.03.09.09:22:49:750005: Reel 4, Folder B - CHERNE, LEO

The related biographic file regarding Leo Cherne offers that he used the alias Leopoldo Chernetsky.

104-10110-10399: FORM - COORDINATION REQUEST RE LEO CHERNE AKA LEOPOLD CHERN...

Another confidential document that seeks to use Leo Cherne for intelligence exploitation provides the subject name Leo Cherne “aka Chernetsky, Leopoldo”. This further confirms the alias used by the Agency connected economist.

SEE ALSO: MASTROCOLA_BRUCE_G

STATUS: Documented

CONTRIBUTORS: Bill Simpich • Carmine Savastano

 

See also cable "VSECRET FROM WASHINGTON TO NEW YORK from TRAVIS (aka George H.W. Bush?) to ASHCRAFT, p. 2: "LEO CHERNE -- RPT -- LEO CHERNE IS THE MAN."

 

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10070-10296.pdf

[John Kowalski]

On 3/16/2024 at 8:30 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Can you think of any other relevant issues I’ve neglected to list above?  I’d like to keep a running list of these issues.

MK-Ultra sub-projects 65 and 82 deal with Hungarian refugees, 89 deals with Hungarian repatriation.

[Matt Cloud]

31 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

MK-Ultra sub-projects 65 and 82 deal with Hungarian refugees, 89 deals with Hungarian repatriation.

See Dr. Paul Hoch, the famous Hungarian Mk-Ultra doctor, working at direction of Harriman to develop ... who knows what?

"MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE"

 

CIA (.gov)

https://www.cia.gov › abbottabad-compound

 

PDF

 

later experiments for the CIA), and Paul Hoch and James Cattell of the New. York State Psychiatric Institute, whose forced injections of a mescaline deriva ...

 

https://archives.library.csi.cuny.edu/~files/Willow_Cipp_PDF/WSSM-2_b1_f4_015.pdf

 

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CRECB-1999-pt11/html/CRECB-1999-pt11-Pg15539-3.htm

[Jim Hargrove]

20 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Even though we do not know his birth name I would add refugee societies to the list. These would include Hungarian immigrants providing assistance to refugees from Hungary, the American Red Cross and the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration which provided relief and resettlement camps for war victims. Their headquarters was in NYC. They are no longer in existence but their documents are at the United Nations archives. 

Let me contact the NYPL before looking for a researcher. Have a list of items from the Weinstock papers that I want to   review, and will add the New York telephone directory for 1945-1949 to the list. Will also inquire about Yorkville community newspapers and alternatives to the city directory.

As you probably know, John A. is particularly suspicious of Frank Wisner and his group.  Here’s what John wrote on The Early Years page of our website:

----------------------

"Frank Wisner was a Wall Street lawyer and during WW II worked for the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor of the CIA). After World War II ended thousands of Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States under his supervision. National Security Council (NSC) records show that Wisner, the CIA's director of clandestine operations, oversaw the re-location of thousands of anti-Communist exiles to the United States as a means of rewarding them for conducting secret operations against the Soviets. Wisner became the CIA and State Department’s expert on European war refugees, and secretly subsidized the refugee relief organizations that brought these Eastern Bloc refugees to the United States throughout the 1940s and early 1950s.

"Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrant's knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands. Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed. The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains "classified," that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA. The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA...."

-------------------

I’ll hold off on contacting NYPL until I hear from you.  Note that the 1945 Manhattan phone book is available online, but I haven’t been able to find online directories for 1946 to 1949.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

18 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Hope this isn't too Cold War-centric, but you might check the records of Leo Cherne's International Rescue Committee (IRC), whom Oswald wrote in 1962.  That's a coincidence.  They did a lot of Hungarian refugee work beginning in 1948.  

Probably worth keeping in mind, but there is pretty good evidence that the Russian-speaking LHO was living in Benbrook, Texas in 1947, the earliest reasonably solid biographical data we have for him.

Thank you for trying to limit the scope of your posts a bit.  It is appreciated. 

[Jim Hargrove]

18 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Was Robert Oswald's wife Hungarian? if yes add her to your list.

According to  a 1/10/64 FBI report by Butler and Hosty, Vada “stated she was born and raised in Boyd, Texas….”  John A. indicated her name was originally Vada Marie Mercer [H&L, 132]. According to gw.geneanet.org, her father, S. Rufus Mercer, was born in Texas in 1905.  Her mother, Ina B. Sanders, was also born in Texas.

[Matt Cloud]

12 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Probably worth keeping in mind, but there is pretty good evidence that the Russian-speaking LHO was living in Benbrook, Texas in 1947, the earliest reasonably solid biographical data we have for him.

 

You're all over the place.  One minute your insisting on looking for Hungarian refugee waifs on the Upper East Side; the next your saying he's in Texas.  

 

Which is it?  

 

Why has this thread been devoted to the search for a Hungarian orphan in Yorkville and New York up until now, if the search should have been in Texas all along?  Explain.

 

And where/what is the source for this Benbrook, TX claim?  What is the "earliest reasonably solid biographical data that we [sic] have?"

Edited March 18 by Matt Cloud

[John Kowalski]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Frank Wisner was a Wall Street lawyer and during WW II worked for the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor of the CIA). After World War II ended thousands of Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States under his supervision. National Security Council (NSC) records show that Wisner, the CIA's director of clandestine operations, oversaw the re-location of thousands of anti-Communist exiles to the United States as a means of rewarding them for conducting secret operations against the Soviets. Wisner became the CIA and State Department’s expert on European war refugees, and secretly subsidized the refugee relief organizations that brought these Eastern Bloc refugees to the United States throughout the 1940s and early 1950s.

"Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrant's knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands. Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed. The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains "classified," that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA. The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA...."

Jim:

Very interesting post. This could be a source for learning more about young Harvey. Have you or John A attempted to find out anything about the DPC? It should be on the list.

[Matt Cloud]

5 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Very interesting post. This could be a source for learning more about young Harvey. Have you or John A attempted to find out anything about the DPC? It should be on the list.

Sounds pretty "Cold War-centirc" to me, John.  If I had posted same would you have said it irrelevant?  

[Matt Cloud]

And how are we doing on getting the infamous notes of the Tippit call from the Tippit grandchildren?  Any movement on that?