The Anonymous Phone Call to the Tippits of Connecticut

[John Kowalski]

22 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Do either of you know how to access the Manhattan phone book after 1946 or 1947?  It was simple to gain access to the 1946 book, but I spent an hour trying to look through the 1948 edition without success.

How did you access 1946? Have you tried Ancestry for the 1948 one?

[John Kowalski]

19 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John -- That's quite a file, but it seems to end in the 1950s, at least from what I've browsed through so far.  Do you know of anything else on Bentley that goes to or approaches 1963?  Or do you think much more was unlikely after she changed teams? 

Do not have anything else on her except her will that is been sent to me by mail.

[Matt Cloud]

2 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Thank you.  I will break-down pieces of this bit-by-bit over time, perhaps.  For now, what is the actual relationship you describe here:

 

"my mom  AND GARDOSH from the Tippit call both working in the Corvina and being in regular weekly letter contact with an Oval Office analyst (her Uncle) "

 

Who is your mother, and what exactly is the relationship between her and Grace Gardos and Paul Kecskemeti?  I just need a one or two sentence response, please.

 

Your mother's brother is Paul Kecskemeti?  Yes?  Your mother worked for Corvina press?  Yes?  

 

Do you have any indication that Mary Gardos herself, or any of her family, was in contact with Paul Kecskemeti?

 

Thank you.

And meanwhile, both of these pieces should be read together, the first for Paul Kecskemeti, the second for "The Mole."

 

http://www.thestacksreader.com/the-subterranean-world-of-the-bomb/

 

http://www.thestacksreader.com/the-shadow-of-the-mole/

[Matt Cloud]

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

Do not have anything else on her except her will that is been sent to me by mail.

How 'bout some books?  

 

https://www.amazon.com/Red-Spy-Queen-Biography-Elizabeth/dp/0807827398

 

https://www.amazon.com/Clever-Girl-Elizabeth-Bentley-McCarthy/dp/0060185198/ref=pd_bxgy_d_sccl_1/137-8819431-3306619?pd_rd_w=ze7N4&content-id=amzn1.sym.2b132e63-5dcd-4ba1-be9f-9e044543d59f&pf_rd_p=2b132e63-5dcd-4ba1-be9f-9e044543d59f&pf_rd_r=4SSJVDM6KE6RT0EBJ5NC&pd_rd_wg=ORrlQ&pd_rd_r=34d1e860-ef05-4982-8582-e8d6f25088e7&pd_rd_i=0060185198&psc=1

[Geo Kozma]

On 3/13/2024 at 2:27 PM, Matt Cloud said:

Thank you.  I will break-down pieces of this bit-by-bit over time, perhaps.  For now, what is the actual relationship you describe here:

 

Your mother's brother is Paul Kecskemeti?  Yes?  Your mother worked for Corvina press?  Yes?  

 

Do you have any indication that Mary Gardos herself, or any of her family, was in contact with Paul Kecskemeti?

 

Thank you.

But UNCLE is not a BROTHER...'Uncle"  meant in my English class 50 ys ago  that he is the brother of the Father of my mom.  Or of my grandfather. And yes my mom worked at the Corvina from 57 till 84 when she died. Almost 30  years. She was just a lector or corrector of typos.

I have neveer heard of any Mary Gardos. Grace Gardos was the wife (born Blair) of EMIL GArdos.

1.

I had some indications in the EDU FORUm  in 2019 that ther existed some Jewish Rescue missions - some organized by the First Lady. and I found some children's letters to the First Lady, some of them mentioning that their location in Britain is led by Anna Freud. And the secretary of Anna Freud was the sister in-law of my mom's Uncle, Paul Kecskeméti. he was asked by the First Lady to do German translations as some of the fleeing Jewish kids needed translators. 

 

2.

 

 

Also as i did it now, he sure looked into a RAbbinical (=notary) Archive List of the Oswald Family after hearing (privately as he knew all the bosses/  about the Tippit Call...

Or even just moved by simple curiosity ...he must have seen the GArdosh  spouse of one Oswald - the one and only Hungarian Jewish name ... among the hundreds.

He knew that it does not mean a real life contact  (o just MAYBE) but it can be dangerous if put into the mass media....He evidently also did see that Mrs Weinstock is called GROSs

and that some Gardos families were first in Germany called GROSS...

-  surely did KNOW that EmiL was kicked back to Stalinist Hungary in 48. 

 

 

 

 

 

I must excuse me I really want to be succint and factual. But I never knew anything about my mom's UNCLE (my grandad's bro)...despite meeting him a few times abroad and here too once. And these ideas come to me while I try to be succint and factual.

Edited March 20 by Geo Kozma
To make it clearer

[Matt Cloud]

13 minutes ago, Geo Kozma said:

But UNCLE is not a BROTHER...'Uncle"  meant in my English class 50 ys ago  that he is the brother of the Father of my mom.  Or of my grandfather. And yes my mom worked at the Corvina from 57 till 84 when she died. Almost 30  years. She was just a lector or corrector of typos.

I have neveer heard of any Mary Gardos. Grace Gardos was the wife (born Blair) of EMIL GArdos.

1.

I had some indications in the EDU FORUm  in 2019 that ther existed some Jewish Rescue missions - some organized by the First Lady. and I found some children's letters to the First Lady, some of them mentioning that their location in Britain is led by Anna Freud. And the secretary of Anna Freud was the sister in-law of my mom's Uncle, Paul Kecskeméti. he was asked by the First Lady to do German translations as some of the fleeing Jewish kids needed translators. 

I do not have any documents about this--- except the letter of the children mentioning Anna Freud who was among the friendly circle members - thru her scretary the sis-in-law of Uncle Paul Kecske (that was his nickname, meaning GOATY.)

 

 

2.

is it too complicated? I think it is evident that if the First Lady needed a German translator she will chose someone who has famous relatives hence it makes him more trustworthy. (And he was that - he never mentioned me the name of  Anna Freud,when I was looking for a job in London in 1974...He wanted to avoid any way for me to get some info on his secret life with nfluential leaders. 

 

3

I only THINk that IF THE OSWALDS (some members of the family like former husband Pic with Fuhrman relatives) did apply - as patiots- the could have met the GARDOS family also applying to become FOSTER FAMILIES.

and if Uncle Goaty was a translator of the First LAdy  he might know  some of the children and the foster families.

Or he must have seen minimally some list of names.  

 

4 

Also as i did it now, he sure looked into a RAbbinical (=notary) Archive List of the Oswald Family after hearing (privately as he knew all the bosses/  about the Tippit Call...

Or even just moved by simple curiosity ...he must have seen the GArdosh  spouse of one Oswald - the one and only Hungarian Jewish name ... among the hundreds.

He knew that it does not mean a real life contcat  (o just MAYBE) but it can be dangerous if put into the mass media....He evidently also did see that Mrs Weinstock is called GROSs

and that some Gardos families were first in Germany called GROSS...

so even if he has NOT met the Foster FAmiily Gardoshes in the 1940s now, in 1963 he certainly did find them...as he (being the Hungarian referent for 5 Presidents and knowing everyone in Hungary - among the ruling intelligence -  surely did KNOW that EmiL was kicked back to Stalinist Hungary in 48. 

5.

he probably went to the NYC Hungarian BOOKSHOP  regularly   to see the CORVINA books - just for the nostalgia for his lost (killed)  brother's daughter ....her niece....my mom.... who was closest to him...but they could start their letters only after 1965 when he went to pension...

SO HE SAW thAt In 1963 there were  two  new books that had family resonance and one was sure co-translated with his wife, by Gardosh and the Cartoons were maybe also correctd by him... I do not think he had to ask my mom about other people working there... They avoided mentioning names in general...he wrote me about KANT...if I asked him some pre-teenager blimp.... He had otherr reliable sources - I do know some as it is reasearched hiere around the UNEXPECTED REVOLUTION in 1956 -   and he had to know who was from the KGB at any important cultural center (like CORVINA)

 

6. 

/ I do not think he ever met any of the Gardos or Weinstock people. In those times even average people avoided Stalinist people as thy were dumber than today the  extremits of either side. a Presidentical Advisor sure avoided to meet them - either in  the 1940s   or in the 50s or 60s. BUT IT IS SURE HE READ THE PAPERS AND KNEW THE COMMIE LEADERS BY NAME AND HE could know  (being a son of a rabbi) HOW OSWALD WAS maybe somehow linked to the  Gardoshes.  he saw in the Archives that my mom's mother  called   KELLER  is also represented at the OSWALD list. 

 

I must excuse me I really want to be succint and factual. But I never knew anything about my mom's UNCLE (my grandad's bro)...despite meeting him a few times abroad and here too once. And these ideas come to me while I try to be succint and factual.

Okay.  Thank you.  Paul was your grandfather's brother.  When he lived in the U.S., where did he live?  When did he return to Hungary -- if that's what he did?

 

Mary Gardos was a typographical error by me.  I have since edited the post to read Grace Gardos.  

 

Thank you for your mother's employment dates with Corvina. 

 

From my understanding, I would describe the Gardos as Trotskyites rather than Stalinists, with Weinstock having betrayed Trotskyites in the '40s it is said, resulting in many deportations, including perhaps the Gardos family. 

 

So what ties this all together here is the intersection of of Grace Gardos at Corvina, your mother at Corvina, Paul Kecskemeti your mother's uncle in the U.S., who is the author of U.S. space program in many respects and Cold War strategic thinking.  

Edited March 13 by Matt Cloud

[John Kowalski]

6 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

How 'bout some books?  

Free digitized copy of Clever Girl is available on Internet Archive.

Edited March 13 by John Kowalski

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

How did you access 1946? Have you tried Ancestry for the 1948 one?

A search for "1946 Manhattan phone book" or something similar produced multiple working sources, including the NYC Public Library and several others.  Looking virtually inside the 1946 phone book worked beautifully on several sites, but when I tried for 1948, there was just a brick wall.  Lots of references, lots of libraries to visit in person, but no ability to look inside the 1948 book online.  My bet is it is either a copyright exclusion or a limit to how many people are willing scan and publish that many pages.  

8 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Do not have anything else on her except her will that is been sent to me by mail.

Hopefully, I'll have something to send your way from Connecticut soon.

[Matt Cloud]

43 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

A search for "1946 Manhattan phone book" or something similar produced multiple working sources, including the NYC Public Library and several others.  Looking virtually inside the 1946 phone book worked beautifully on several sites, but when I tried for 1948, there was just a brick wall.  Lots of references, lots of libraries to visit in person, but no ability to look inside the 1948 book online.  My bet is it is either a copyright exclusion or a limit to how many people are willing scan and publish that many pages.  

Hopefully, I'll have something to send your way from Connecticut soon.

There's no copyright on the phonebook.  And I don't think after 1947 they said to hell with it.  No, no, there's something there ...

 

Who are you looking up btw?

 

In a 9-0 opinion delivered by Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, the Court held that the names, towns, and telephone numbers copied by Feist were not original to Rural and therefore were not protected by the copyright in Rural's combined white and yellow pages directory.

 

Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Telephone Service Company ...

Edited March 14 by Matt Cloud

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/12/2024 at 8:49 AM, John Kowalski said:

The draft card is not dated but at the bottom it says D.S.S. Form 1 Revised 4-1-42. He says his age is 46 and was born on September 26, 1895, which suggests that he signed it sometime before his 47th birthday in 1942.

 

Was it normal back then to register for the draft when in your forties?

I was too young for the draft, but assume that only young men were required to register.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Was it normal back then to register for the draft when in your forties?

I was too young for the draft, but assume that only young men were required to register.

Sandy,

My take is that WWII was special.  My father landed on Normandy Beach on D-Day plus 4 (four days after D-Day) and he was nearly 40 yrs old.  He was a U.S. Army lieutenant in charge of a small group of African-American troops.

Matt,

Copyright laws are often complex.  A collection of public domain elements, if original and comprehensive new material is added, can sometimes be copyrighted again, which may be the case in an analog to digital transformation.  There is plenty of case law behind this.

 

[Geo Kozma]

14 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Paul was your grandfather's brother.  When he lived in the U.S., where did he live?  When did he return to Hungary -- if that's what he did?

 

P. K. (I prefer GOATY as that is what his name means and everyone is called by that nickname in the family as otherwise it is too long...) So he lived for a while in NYC and I only know they were neighbours (and friends) with Bela Bartok, - who died in 45 I think - he was a rather well known Hungarian - non Jewish -  componist of that era.

But later he spent decades in RESTON. He fled from the NAzis in 40 to the US and lived there till 80. He did not get a visa only in 1980 a few months before his death he visited us. (Born in 1901)

i never heard this space program thing...I know only his two books - on the Nazi media on the Freudian couch...published i think in 44 and the   Unexpected Revolution in 57...I did hear and read about the debate in the Senate  - in 58 - on his Strategic Surrender  -- there he may have mentioned such technical options...

 

i think that in every era individualist Western, and collectivist Asian values do have conflicts...they both need to defend themselves  --- so they feel  both -, and yes there are proponents of related  ideas...But i do not think that individuals should be judged and sneered  at if their environment and talents put them into a position of influence or even  innovation for the one or the other side of these eternal dilemmas. 

And it would be very much detrimental for an objective search of any historical event if we constantly project evil intent to those who are compelled to root for individalist Capitalism.(Of course I am not accusing you of this herre and now.)

Yes it is a faulty system  . like most human creations - causing many painful setups. But unintentionally.  When the  opponents - although individually maybe naive idealists (useful idiots with Lenin's word - they tend to cause millions dying in slave camps... intentionally so. (I think that inside both camps there are Hawks and Doves...this is evident in the clashes of Trotskysts and Stalinists in the 30s mainly in Spain. I do not think Gardos was a Trotskyst in Hungary- it was a taboo trend - but he was a diligent operator as interpreter for the stalinist Bosses,,,Even during the rebel weeks  he opted to go  . or flee -  as a diplomat of the Stalinist side to India (and  the weather is  surely better there... )

[Geo Kozma]

20 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

And meanwhile, both of these pieces should be read together, the first for Paul Kecskemeti, the second for "The Mole."

 

http://www.thestacksreader.com/the-subterranean-world-of-the-bomb/

 

http://www.thestacksreader.com/the-shadow-of-the-mole/

Thank you it was interesting to red about this hidden past of a family member...and also the weird dangers of this intel struggées...

but it is also interesting that even though Eisenhower is described as "very angry" (due to the misconstrrued title of the book on surrenders) he did allow Kecskeméti to stay away from the debate and even accepted his plea of "no mention by name". He was n o t humiliated and the value of his text  and its real rational intent was not put in question. 

Edited March 14 by Geo Kozma
typo

[Matt Cloud]

12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sandy,

My take is that WWII was special.  My father landed on Normandy Beach on D-Day plus 4 (four days after D-Day) and he was nearly 40 yrs old.  He was a U.S. Army lieutenant in charge of a small group of African-American troops.

Matt,

Copyright laws are often complex.  A collection of public domain elements, if original and comprehensive new material is added, can sometimes be copyrighted again, which may be the case in an analog to digital transformation.  There is plenty of case law behind this.

 

If only I had known that what I received my LLM -- that's Master of Laws -- in copyright law.  Would love to see any of the "case law" you claim supports this otherwise irrelevant issue of yours.  The phonebooks are not copyright protected.  

[Matt Cloud]

3 hours ago, Geo Kozma said:

P. K. (I prefer GOATY as that is what his name means and everyone is called by that nickname in the family as otherwise it is too long...) So he lived for a while in NYC and I only know they were neighbours (and friends) with Bela Bartok, - who died in 45 I think - he was a rather well known Hungarian - non Jewish -  componist of that era.

But later he spent decades in RESTON. He fled from the NAzis in 40 to the US and lived there till 80. He did not get a visa only in 1980 a few months before his death he visited us. (Born in 1901)

i never heard this space program thing...I know only his two books - on the Nazi media on the Freudian couch...published i think in 44 and the   Unexpected Revolution in 57...I did hear and read about the debate in the Senate  - in 58 - on his Strategic Surrender  -- there he may have mentioned such technical options...

 

i think that in every era individualist Western, and collectivist Asian values do have conflicts...they both need to defend themselves  --- so they feel  both -, and yes there are proponents of related  ideas...But i do not think that individuals should be judged and sneered  at if their environment and talents put them into a position of influence or even  innovation for the one or the other side of these eternal dilemmas. 

And it would be very much detrimental for an objective search of any historical event if we constantly project evil intent to those who are compelled to root for individalist Capitalism.(Of course I am not accusing you of this herre and now.)

Yes it is a faulty system  . like most human creations - causing many painful setups. But unintentionally.  When the  opponents - although individually maybe naive idealists (useful idiots with Lenin's word - they tend to cause millions dying in slave camps... intentionally so. (I think that inside both camps there are Hawks and Doves...this is evident in the clashes of Trotskysts and Stalinists in the 30s mainly in Spain. I do not think Gardos was a Trotskyst in Hungary- it was a taboo trend - but he was a diligent operator as interpreter for the stalinist Bosses,,,Even during the rebel weeks  he opted to go  . or flee -  as a diplomat of the Stalinist side to India (and  the weather is  surely better there... )

On the space program, which is -- or should be understood firstly as -- a social science undertaking.  

P. 3:

In October 1950, Paul Kecskemeti at RAND produced another comprehensive report on space that Walter A. McDougall believes should “be considered the birth certificate of American space policy.”~ This report highlighted the psychological impact the first satellite would likely have on the public and raised the issue of how the Soviet Union might respond to overflight of their territory and space-based reconnaissance. It even suggested that one way to test the issue of freedom of space would be first to launch an experimental U.S. satellite in an equatorial orbit that would not cross Soviet territory before attempting any satellite reconnaissance overhead the Soviet Union.

 

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=3e9dd0ad61c39eab74e6f312bc0aba66bb82162c

 

This is critically important to the topic here because the psychological effect of Sputnik, and the U-2, overhead reconnaissance, and missiles and missile defense, is central to the strategic balance of power over the course of the Cold War and again -- the leak of the U-2 technical plans -- is what sets the "mole hunt" in motion.  As noted above Weinstock may be involved in disseminating information about what Gary Powers told the Soviets as part of a set-up job against Oswald.

As to Gardos being a Trotskyite, I think if you read through their papers and the history you will find that is their political viewpoint.  This is important because the strategy of the Trotskyite revolution -- those are the "neocons" here today -- is ferment social change through continual international revolution.  By having the Gardos family deported back into Hungary they could then become instrumental in leading the Hungarian uprising in 1956, which would be part of the break-down of Stalinist control over the satellites.