Question about the Lead car

[Chris Bristow]

10 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Curry, Chaney and Jackson all saying the same thing;

https://o/t50-chaney-talks-to-curry

 

Another discrepancy in the record is the McIntyre photo that shows Ellis, Lumpkin and another cop identified as Grey, leading the limo onto the Stemmons. Where is Chaney?
The official story is that Chaney is seen on the left underneath the overpass which contradicts Curry's telling Chaney to escort the them to Parkland while still in the plaza.
The Bell film shows those 3 cops well out in front of the limo as it exited the underpass. Too early for Chaney to have gotten ahead of them and he is not seen in between Curry and those 3 cops.
The account you posted has Chaney clearing the other bike cops from in front of the limo which the McIntyre photo also contradicts. 
 I don't get why Chaney would clear the other bikes from in front of the limo if he is just going to replace them and lead the motorcade to Parkland by himself. Those bikes were not fast but speed wise they accelerate as fast as a modern Lincoln with a top speed of 100mph+. The limo engine was not stock but the limo was heavy.  How fast JFK's limo could accelerate was not publicized.
   If the Curry/Chaney meeting happened on the onramp those discrepancies would make sense but then Chaney, Jackson, Curry and Hargis all made the same mistake. I would add Lawson and Sorrels but I still have to find those statements again.
  I have some CT minded suspicions about the McIntyre photo which was said to have been given to Gary Mack in the 80'S. It is just weird that the limo must be doing 50 mph at that point but the bike cops look as if they are moving along very slowly. Lumpkin is riding the middle position which is slightly tricky when going around a curve at speed, yet he is riding with one hand as if moving at a slower speed. Secondly the camera shows a diagonal camera jiggle blur on everything in the photo from the bikes under the pass, the billboard and the white posts with the red lines. But the 3 bike cops are in nearly perfect focus with the front tire tread of Ellis' bike being sharply in focus. You can see the tiny light bulbs in the cops red lights and their blur does not match the camera jiggle direction. 
   

[Chris Bristow]

On 2/24/2024 at 3:33 AM, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

Earle Brown's statement was to Mack i think. Any  search will find it.

Hoffman said that Queen Mary stopped below him & turned its light signals off.

I would not trust anything Gary Mack had to say after seeing the lie he perpetrated in the "Inside The Target Car" documentary in which he completely misrepresented the position of JFK's head as being firmly tucked up against Jackies left shoulder at the head shot. That lie allowed him to claim Jackie would also have been hit by a knoll shot. We know for a fact his head was at her right shoulder and a good 8 to 10 inches away from her head as seen in Z 312 and the Muchmore film. I don't believe he was so ignorant as to make such a blatant mistake.
 I also don't get how the Queen Mary would come to a stop on the ramp below unless the limo also came to a stop in front of it. I'm sure there are a lot of search results for Hoffman's statements, can you point me to his story about the Q.M. coming to a stop?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGmrbMEGEPc

HOFFMAN.

40:10 and at that time the police were just standing there they had not moved and you know we were all trying to motion to the police

40:16 to i was trying to motion to the police to go after the man that had run away and uh

40:24 there were other special services

40:29 the other car was coming along behind them

40:38 and the secret service noticed my hands

40:44 they noticed you know they stopped they turned their lights out

40:50 i thought maybe they were trying to um motion to me

40:57 but they all got out of there very quickly of course and uh that man had already gone

41:02 down the tracks by this time you know so um there was no time to let anyone know so

41:08 i ran and got in my car and i drove down towards that direction and i kept looking for where the man had

41:14 gone i and he had disappeared completely no one ever found him so um

41:21 i went to the police department at that time i hurried very quickly to get there and i went into the police department and i

Edited February 25 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Chris Bristow]

1 hour ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGmrbMEGEPc

HOFFMAN.

40:10 and at that time the police were just standing there they had not moved and you know we were all trying to motion to the police

40:16 to i was trying to motion to the police to go after the man that had run away and uh

40:24 there were other special services

40:29 the other car was coming along behind them

40:38 and the secret service noticed my hands

40:44 they noticed you know they stopped they turned their lights out

40:50 i thought maybe they were trying to um motion to me

40:57 but they all got out of there very quickly of course and uh that man had already gone

41:02 down the tracks by this time you know so um there was no time to let anyone know so

41:08 i ran and got in my car and i drove down towards that direction and i kept looking for where the man had

41:14 gone i and he had disappeared completely no one ever found him so um

41:21 i went to the police department at that time i hurried very quickly to get there and i went into the police department and i

Thanks for that. He does say the SS car stopped and it sounds like it was when he was looking down to the onramp. Only mentioning the SS car stopping there is a bit strange though. His timeline takes some sudden jumps like when he starts to say he watched the limo go under the bridge then suddenly jumps back to the plaza.
It does make me wonder because he was able to see the limo enter and exit the triple overpass bridge as well. Still his account is pretty strong support for the SS car stopping on the onramp.  

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

4 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Thanks for that. He does say the SS car stopped and it sounds like it was when he was looking down to the onramp. Only mentioning the SS car stopping there is a bit strange though. His timeline takes some sudden jumps like when he starts to say he watched the limo go under the bridge then suddenly jumps back to the plaza.
It does make me wonder because he was able to see the limo enter and exit the triple overpass bridge as well. Still his account is pretty strong support for the SS car stopping on the onramp.  

The motorcade stopped on the on-ramp.

And all of the wordage re chaney & curry & lawson & Co is fodder for the stupid.

Hoffman said "we" instead of "i". This supports my theory that he had a passenger (in his falcon). Or, he gesticulated with a stammer.

Hoffman said that he had a camera. But, it appears that he did not use it. This supports that he left his camera in his falcon during those seconds.

Edited February 25 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Courson (on his motorbike) caught up to the jfklimo,
ie he confirms that the motorcade stopped on the Stemmons on-ramp for 30 sec.
And SSA Hickey in Queen Mary pointed his AR15 at Courson.
Was this before or after Hickey pointed the AR15 at Ed Hoffman (who was up on the Stemmons overpass).

Jimmy Courson, retired Dallas motorcycle officer, dies at 81   By dallasnews Administrator
10:51 PM on Feb 14, 2014 CST    LISTEN
During his 25 years with the Dallas police, Jimmy Wayne Courson rescued people, roped calves and played a part in history — all from his motorcycle.
On Nov. 22, 1963, he escorted the limousine carrying the mortally wounded President John F. Kennedy to Parkland hospital.
Courson, 81, died Monday of heart disease while recovering from a broken hip at Beacon Harbor Rehabilitation in Rockwall.
Services will be at 11 a.m. Saturday at Rest Haven Funeral Home in Rockwall. The family will receive friends for 90 minutes before the service. He will be buried in Rest Haven Memorial Park.
Breaking News    Get the latest breaking news from North Texas and beyond.
“He loved being an officer,” said his wife, Sue Courson of Rockwall. “He loved his men, and his men loved him.”
Courson was born in Como, where he graduated from high school.
In 1951, he joined the Marines and served during the Korean War. He was once pinned half in and half out of his bunker after it collapsed during enemy shelling.
He joined the Dallas Police Department as an apprentice in 1954 and became a patrolman in June 1955. The young officer discovered his passion for motorcycles and became a motorcycle officer in September 1955, said his son Kris Courson of Helena, Ala.
In November 1955, he married Martha Sue Carter.
In 1962, he was nominated for the outstanding traffic award for his 1,912 arrests in 1961. Two of his 1961 arrests involved one motorist at the same Oak Cliff location. On both occasions — 11 months apart — the man was driving a stolen Corvette.
In July 1962, Courson swam fully clothed against the current to rescue a motorist whose car had washed off Hillcrest Road.

In 1963, he was a motorcycle escort several cars behind the presidential limousine. 
Amid the confusion after the shooting, he accelerated to the president’s car.
“He said that when he got up to the presidential Lincoln, one of the Secret Service men actually turned toward him with a machine gun.”
The agent turned away after recognizing Courson as a Dallas officer.

“He led the car to Parkland,” his son said. “He said he almost crashed his motor because they went over the railroad tracks.
He was speeding excessively with the car. He actually left the ground and almost lost control.”

At Parkland, Courson helped the first lady get out of the car and assisted others to get the president out of the vehicle, his son said.
He later escorted the hearse from Parkland to Love Field.
Courson resisted suggestions that he seek promotion to lieutenant, his son said.
“Dad just didn’t want to do it; he didn’t want to be stuck at a desk job,” his son said. “He wanted to be out on patrol with his men.”
In 1975, Courson used his motorcycle to help round up calves on Grand Avenue that had escaped a wrecked cattle truck.
He retired in 1979 but wasn’t through with law enforcement.
About six months after he retired to a corporate security job at LTV Corp., Courson followed a suspected drunken driver he spotted until officers arrived.
“He just felt that that was his duty, even as a retired policeman,” Kris Courson said.
In October 1981, Courson spotted an off-duty officer with his gun drawn entering a downtown jewelry store.
When Courson entered the store, the off-duty officer was holding two suspects at gunpoint.
Courson took a gun off one of the suspects and searched for additional robbers. He received the involved citizen award for assisting in the arrests.
“He never stopped being a policeman,” his wife said.
In addition to his wife and son, Courson is survived by two daughters, Kathy Dunn of Dallas and Cindy Bietendorf of Rockwall; another son, Kyle Courson of Flowery Branch, Ga.; 11 grandchildren; and three great-grandchildren.
Memorials may be made to First Baptist Church of Dallas; the Involved Life Inc. at the Downtown Dallas Pregnancy Center; the Dallas Life Foundation or a charity of the donor’s choice.

Edited February 25 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

PENN JONES T H E CONTINUING INQUIRY VOLUME IV, NUMBER 9 APRIL 22, 1980 THE STOP-AND-GO MOTORCADE by Gary Mack

When retired Dallas Police Officer Earle V. Brown told me the motorcade stopped on the Stemmons Freeway access ramp (see March 1980 TCI), my first thought was verification. From all written information, including the Warren Commission volumes, there's no direct indication whatsoever that such an event really happened. The TCI printing deadline was moved back some 10 days to accommodate all I knew at that time.

Afterward, I called Brown again to ask if he was absolutely certain about what he saw. He said he'd been thinking about it for the past week and there was no doubt - the motorcade, with the Kennedy limousine in front, came to a halt for some 30 seconds.

Brawn didn't remember any specifics - there may have been one or two motorcycles, he couldn't recall anyone getting out of a car, one of the men had what appeared to be a big automatic rifle. But the two men in the front seat of the limousine were talking and gesturing, and that's why Brown concluded, right then, they didn't know the location of the nearest hospital. Secret Service guidelines, of course, required that knowledge.

3 I'd heard that Jesse Curry can be reasonable with critics and remembered that his wife had called our radio station two years ago to say thanks for treating her husband fairly on our talk shows. So, seeking verification of Brown's story, I called the former Dallas Chief of Police. Since this was to be our first discussion, I decided not to press the man too hard for answers. He's in the phone book, I dialed the number and Chief Curry himself answered. If he recognized my name or the radio station, he gave no indication. He did agree to answer a few questions. When asked if his car was ever behind Kennedy's, Curry denied it by repeating his Warren Commission testimony that he led the motorcade to Parkland. When I next told him some "newly discovered" films and photographs showed he pulled to his left in the Triple Underpass, slowed down, then speeded up and cut in between JFK and his Secret Service escort car, Curry still denied being behind Kennedy.

There was no real reason to argue the point, so I asked about the speed of the motorcade out of Dealey Plaza and on up to Stemmons. Curry said they were accelerating "pretty good" until the motorcycle officer pulled up and they talked briefly. He didn't remember the officer's name, even when I mentioned Martin, Chaney and Jackson. "I leaned out my window and said to him 'Were those shots?' and he said 'Yes and the President's hurt pretty bad.' And I said 'Well get us to the hospitall' "

I asked where this conversation took place and he said "somewhere just before Stemmons." %'he big question, how fast were you going, made him pause before answering "Probably '^tive or six miles an hour."

When told of Officer Brown's account, Curry denied they stopped, but revised his speed estimate to "pretty slow, maybe two to three miles an hour."

Before I could ask him to think about it more carefully, Curry unexpectedly volunteered "You know, they didn't even know where the hospital wasi" "There have been rumors about………

 

 

 

…………….. *>“In the telephone conversation not long before he died Curry confirmed to me that another police officer had witnessed [second hand testimony] the motorcade came to a virtual halt on the *access ramp to the Stemmens*. Patrolman Earl Brown was on the railroad overpass which spans Stemmons (not the triple underpass) and saw the cars come to a complete stop for nearly 30 seconds as it approached him.

He told this information to Earl Golz of the Dallas Morning News, and repeated it to me when I called him for verification. Unknown to me was that Jim Bowles, in his reconstruction had already allowed for 15-20 seconds for the temporary stop in addition to the time it took from the Plaza to the access road.

Curry told me they slowed down for two reasons: to find out from motorcycle officer if anyone was hurt, and to inform the Secret Service of the location of the nearest hospital.”

NOTE: The access ramp to the Stemmons FWY is some 700 feet beyond the Pavilion where Zapruder filmed the JFK head shot – and some 400 feet beyond the triple underpass. Earl Brown was 400 feet to the right on another railroad overpass.

In reading Vince Palamara’s ‘Fifty-nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street’ , I see enough controversy between “the car slowed down” to “the car stopped momentarily” to conclude that choosing which testimony is correct is a matter of the bias of the person attempting to make a case one way or the other…………….

 

The following info re the motorcade stopping on the Stemmons onramp is from the www & forums.

DPD Officer Earle Brown, on the railway overpass above Stemmons, told Earl Golz in March 1980 that he saw the limo and 4 other cars stop on the Stemmons on-ramp for at least 30 secs.

Brown later repeated his story for Gary Mack.

Officer Doug Jackson told Mack in 1981 that he and Chaney raced after the lead car, caught up with it after about 30 secs, and Chaney spoke through the window to Curry.

Curry told another researcher in 1979 that Chaney caught up with him as they began climbing the Stemmons on-ramp.

Curry told Mack that he slowed down in order to find out if anyone had been hit, as he was unaware that anyone had been hit until Chaney told him.

He also said he then had to tell the limousine driver, Secret Service agent Bill Greer, how to get to Parkland Hospital, before issuing “Go to hospital” order.

Curry told the Warren Commission that he did not transmit on Channel 2 until after he spoke to Motorcycle Officer Jim Chaney.

DPD Officer Courson said the lead car had slowed sufficiently for him to catch it on the Stemmons access road, and Courson was 100-120 feet behind McLain in the motorcade, and McLain was himself about 140 feet behind the Presidential limo when the shots were fired. Courson was approx. 80 yds behind JFK at Z-313.

 

The following info re the motorcade stopping on the Stemmons onramp is from the www & forums.

DPD Officer Earle Brown, on the railway overpass above Stemmons, told Earl Golz in March 1980 that he saw the limo and 4 other cars stop on the Stemmons on-ramp for at least 30 secs.

Brown later repeated his story for Gary Mack.

Officer Doug Jackson told Mack in 1981 that he and Chaney raced after the lead car, caught up with it after about 30 secs, and Chaney spoke through the window to Curry.

Curry told another researcher in 1979 that Chaney caught up with him as they began climbing the Stemmons on-ramp.

Curry told Mack that he slowed down in order to find out if anyone had been hit, as he was unaware that anyone had been hit until Chaney told him.

He also said he then had to tell the limousine driver, Secret Service agent Bill Greer, how to get to Parkland Hospital, before issuing “Go to hospital” order.

Curry told the Warren Commission that he did not transmit on Channel 2 until after he spoke to Motorcycle Officer Jim Chaney.

DPD Officer Courson said the lead car had slowed sufficiently for him to catch it on the Stemmons access road, and Courson was 100-120 feet behind McLain in the motorcade, and McLain was himself about 140 feet behind the Presidential limo when the shots were fired. Courson was approx. 80 yds behind JFK at Z-313.

 

So, it makes sense that the JFK limo stopped for at least 30 sec on the onramp,

to get directions from the SSA agents on Queen Mary, which also stopped (probably side by side).

Both limos turned off their flashing lights & sirens so that they could converse (Hoffman).

Using their radios would have been quicker, but would have been public & embarrassing.

Why did Curry (in the lead car) stop on the onramp & ask Officer Chaney if anyone had been hurt?

Curry could have driven up to the rear of the 2 limos & asked them directly.

But i suppose that Curry did not suspect that JFK & Connally had been shot, Curry was probly only worried about the general public etc getting shot.

JFK & Connally ducking down out of sight was of no concern.

Anyhow, it appears that the guys in Queen Mary were no wiser re the best way to get to Parklands.

So, Greer & Kellerman must have hollered to Curry & Co when the lead car finally reached the limos.

Curry then probly told Greer to follow the lead car, & the lead car probly took the lead again (Curry was the driver).

And it makes sense that the JFK limo was stopped for at least 30 sec.

Edited February 25 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

James W. Courson          Larry Sneed         University of North Texas Press      Chapter  View Citation
Additional Information  In lieu of an abstract, here is a brief excerpt of the content:
JAMES W. COURSON Solo Motor cycle Officer Dallas Police Department "We were taught in the Marine Corps on the rifle range to count your shots, then on the police department the same thing on the pistol range: count your shots! That's one reason that I know there were three shots, and they probably came from the same gun..."
Jim Courson served in the Marine Corps during the Korean War and joined the Dallas Police Department after his discharge in 1954. Two years later, in 1956, he became a solo motorcycle officer and was assigned to escort the Kennedy motorcade on November 22, 1963. The Kennedy motorcade was much the same as many others which I had escorted. We went to work fairly early that morning and spent a lot of time getting our equipment shined and polished since we always wanted to look sharp on those escorts. At that time, we were riding Harley-Davidsons, which was a tradition with the police department. We were given our assignments that morning through our sergeant which had been coordinated between the Secret Service and the police department. It had been raining that morning, so we had to wear our yellow slicker rain gear out to the airport. Just as we pulled in to Love Field and just as the plane arrived, the sun came through making for a beautiful day. We then stripped off the rain gear and put them in our saddle bags.
128 NO MORE SILENCE               After the President had met with many in the large crowd, we all left the airport, made a left tum on Mockingbird Lane, then a right on Lemmon Avenue. There were people scattered all along the route. In the early stages of the escort, they were not big crowds, but as the sirens were heard, businesses let their employees out and it appeared to be a good tum out. It was all fairly routine for us. The motorcycle officers were concerned with the traffic, with side streets and driveways, and making sure that no one ran out into the motorcade. Tactical officers and patrol officers were stationed at all the intersections including all railroad trestles and overpasses throughout the entire route. There was a lot of security out that day. No traffic was moving except for the motorcade. The motor jockeys in the escort were all experienced and were graduates of the Motorcycle Training School. When they got through with you, you were ready for just about anything. The newer, less experienced men were stationed further back in the escort. The ones in the front and around the President's car were the more experienced.
The route itself was fairly straight, with the exception of a few turns, and was designed for convenience and quickness. It would have been shorter and safer to have gone a more direct route between Love Field and the Trade Mart, but Kennedy wanted to be exposed to as many people as possible, so the route included the downtown area which was out of the way.
By the time we arrived in the downtown area at Harwood and Main, many of the City Hall employees and policemen came out to watch. On Main Street, the crowds were very heavy, three or four deep. All was going well until we had just made a right tum from Main onto Houston Street due to the limousine having to make the sharp left tum up ahead on Elm which slowed the motorcade. We had to stop, thus I was sitting on my motorcycle in the left lane on Houston looking more or less at the Book Depository.
That's when I heard the shots! I couldn't tell exactly from where the shots came because of the echo pattern, but there were three very distinct shots. The first two were fairly close together then there was more space between the second and third. I could tell that they came from
JAMES W. COURSON, MOTORCYCLE 129            one location, but really I was concentrating more on the President and seeing if they needed help up ahead. People near me were just astonished: there were surprised, shocked looks. They didn't know what had happened. I looked to my left and tried to see down across Dealey Plaza what was going on then sped to catch up with the President's car. At that point, we forgot about the rest of the escort; we were just concerned about the President. We had orders if...

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1139.64.html

[Pete Mellor]

On 2/24/2024 at 4:54 AM, Pat Speer said:

Perhaps some backstory is needed. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a Malcolm Blunt Archives, as an Archives is normally understood. That is, there was no place you could go and talk to a librarian and have her retrieve something, or whatever. What there was was dozens of boxes filled with papers that Malcolm had collected over the years from his many trips to the archives, plus some boxes of videotapes he'd collected and so on.

To continue to clarify from previous post, Mr. Blunt also obtained the research papers of Harrison Livingstone.  These have been partially put on-line on D.P.U.K.'s website.  Livingstone's papers on JFK's autopsy are expected to follow sometime next year.