Question about the Lead car

[James DiEugenio]

The limo slowed significantly, but there was a lead car in front of fit. 

DId it keep up speed or slow down also, thus making the limo slow down?

I am not a film expert.

Also, how far from the jump seat was JBC, was he leaned forward?  Or was he just so tall the shot missed the jump seat? ( I am not talking about the SBT of course.)

 

Thanks.

[Tony Krome]

Mr. CURRY - I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this, I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard and check."
And then about this time, I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards.

I imagine Curry slowed down somewhat after hearing shots and checking the rear view. The Limo actually drew ahead of Curry's car just after the underpass. The Limo itself was not going as fast after the final shot as they portrayed, in fact years ago, I worked out that Usain Bolt would have beaten the limo to the underpass from the final shot mark. Which made sense in the end, as Jackie would have slid straight off the rear of the waxed trunk if the limo accelerated too much.

 

[Chris Bristow]

Curry said he was 100 to 125ft in front of the limo on Elm. In Altgens 7, about 5 seconds after the head shot, Curry has his brake lights on and is still about 100 ft ahead of the limo. Curry is in the middle lane and the limo is already shifting to the right lane to get around Curry. It appears from Altgens 7 the limo was able to navigate to the side of Curry and was not inhibited by Curry's vehicle.
 But Curry said a bike cop pulled up next to him to say shots had been fired. Hargis, Sorrels, Lawson, Starves Ellis and Chaney(The bike cop who rode forward to Curry.) all said this happened before they reached the underpass. Hargis specifically said he saw Chaney throw it in 1st gear and race forward immediately after the head shot. But the Nix and Z films combined show Chaney never rode forward before Curry left the plaza.
 This puts the testimony and photographic records in question. Either all those witnesses were wrong, or the films were altered. I think if a limo stop was removed from the films there may be no time for Chaney to ride forward and talk to Curry. That would be reason to remove Chaney's ride forward.

 Putting alteration aside it is still perplexing how Chaney could drop it in 1st gear, accelerate  forward, cover maybe 125 ft, then slow back down to the speed of Curry's car in order to have their 3 sentence conversation before the limo catches them both. It does not seem Chaney could get far enough ahead of the limo, in the short space of 125 ft, to then have time pull up alongside Curry and exchange words before the limo caught up to them.
 So if Chaney did ride forward the timing we see in the films and photos does not make sense and throws up a big question mark regarding the timing of the limo relative to Curry's vehicle.
 
 
 
 
 
  
  
 

[Pat Speer]

8 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Curry said he was 100 to 125ft in front of the limo on Elm. In Altgens 7, about 5 seconds after the head shot, Curry has his brake lights on and is still about 100 ft ahead of the limo. Curry is in the middle lane and the limo is already shifting to the right lane to get around Curry. It appears from Altgens 7 the limo was able to navigate to the side of Curry and was not inhibited by Curry's vehicle.
 But Curry said a bike cop pulled up next to him to say shots had been fired. Hargis, Sorrels, Lawson, Starves Ellis and Chaney(The bike cop who rode forward to Curry.) all said this happened before they reached the underpass. Hargis specifically said he saw Chaney throw it in 1st gear and race forward immediately after the head shot. But the Nix and Z films combined show Chaney never rode forward before Curry left the plaza.
 This puts the testimony and photographic records in question. Either all those witnesses were wrong, or the films were altered. I think if a limo stop was removed from the films there may be no time for Chaney to ride forward and talk to Curry. That would be reason to remove Chaney's ride forward.

 Putting alteration aside it is still perplexing how Chaney could drop it in 1st gear, accelerate  forward, cover maybe 125 ft, then slow back down to the speed of Curry's car in order to have their 3 sentence conversation before the limo catches them both. It does not seem Chaney could get far enough ahead of the limo, in the short space of 125 ft, to then have time pull up alongside Curry and exchange words before the limo caught up to them.
 So if Chaney did ride forward the timing we see in the films and photos does not make sense and throws up a big question mark regarding the timing of the limo relative to Curry's vehicle.
 

 

FWIW, I am fairly certain it's been shown that Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons Freeway on-ramp. He most certainly did not catch up before the lead car reached the overpass. 

 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

FWIW, I am fairly certain it's been shown that Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons Freeway on-ramp. He most certainly did not catch up before the lead car reached the overpass. 

 

Earle Brown said that the motorcade stopped on the Stemmons on-ramp for about 30 seconds.

Supported by another 2 witnesses.

Edited February 21 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[James DiEugenio]

What about my other point, was Connally leaned forward enough for the entry to miss the jump seat?

Or was he just that tall?

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

What about my other point, was Connally leaned forward enough for the entry to miss the jump seat?

Or was he just that tall?

The seat was that short. I'm fairly certain that if you look at the Croft photo taken at 160 or so you can see that Nellie Connally's armpit was above the seat, as well as her husband's. 

[Ron Bulman]

I thought there was a photograph or film frames of the lead car approaching/starting under the underpass as JFK's limo approached/was in front of the grassy knoll.  Taken from behind. Not sure where I might have seen this.  Maybe Robin Unger or Robert Groden's book, I may look.  

I think that would be roughly 100 yards?  I've walked it before, but it's been a while.  To be considered, the lead car stopped at Houston and Elm for Curry to say something to the DPD officer on the corner.  How far in front was it then?  I forget who all was in the lead car besides Curry, Decker, FBI, ?  Were such officials, in the lead, part of JFK's security/protection?  Looking out ahead to protect him, like for open window's?  Then JFK's limo stopped or almost stopped.  The lead car kept going at normal speed?

Also, of note in relation to this, the normal flat bed press truck in front of JFK's limo with a film crew and photographers was scrapped for Dallas, not sure about San Antone or the swamp (Houston). 

[Pat Speer]

13 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I thought there was a photograph or film frames of the lead car approaching/starting under the underpass as JFK's limo approached/was in front of the grassy knoll.  Taken from behind. Not sure where I might have seen this.  Maybe Robin Unger or Robert Groden's book, I may look.  

I think that would be roughly 100 yards?  I've walked it before, but it's been a while.  To be considered, the lead car stopped at Houston and Elm for Curry to say something to the DPD officer on the corner.  How far in front was it then?  I forget who all was in the lead car besides Curry, Decker, FBI, ?  Were such officials, in the lead, part of JFK's security/protection?  Looking out ahead to protect him, like for open window's?  Then JFK's limo stopped or almost stopped.  The lead car kept going at normal speed?

Also, of note in relation to this, the normal flat bed press truck in front of JFK's limo with a film crew and photographers was scrapped for Dallas, not sure about San Antone or the swamp (Houston). 

From Patspeer.com, Chapter 6:

 

Edited February 22 by Pat Speer

[Chris Bristow]

I first read the story about Chaney and Curry's  meeting happening on the Stemmons onramp in a piece from Gary Mack. He claimed they each came to him independently and related the same account. I think they had both passed away by the time he told the story so it could not be verified.
 It is one of the most absurd stories I have ever heard and is so full of holes that it is a joke, imo.
 According to Mack, that stop happened for two reasons. Greer did not know how to get to parkland and needed directions, and secondly Curry was not sure if there really was an emergency that would necessitate a rush to Parkland.
 It is true that Greer did not know the route to Parkland, but the idea of bringing their rush to the hospital to a halt so someone could inform Greer, or to make sure they even needed to rush to Parkland is ridiculous. If they suspected there was a medical emergency is Curry going to stop the motorcade to have a talk with them? Even if Curry wanted to instruct Greer or ascertain the possible injuries he could use the radio. In addition it does not make sense that Greer could get lost when he was right behind Curry. With sirens going the traffic was getting out of the way and there is no chance Greer and Curry would get separated by a traffic light.
The idea he would stop the motorcade is unthinkable. What is he going to do, have some cops check everyone to see if they have been shot?
 Then there is the testimony of Curry in which he gives the timeline. According to Curry the conversation with Chaney absolutely happens in the plaza before hitting the underpass. That is true of all the witnesses to Chaney's ride forward.
 By the time they get to the Stemmonns onramp Curry was fully aware there was an emergency. He heard the shots fired and then both Sorrels and Lawson yell 'Shots fired get to Parkland"(Per their testimony.).He sees the limo speed up towards him so he floors it. But he says the limo still caught up to him under the overpass. He must have heard Kinney's siren too. Kinney and Kellerman also put out radio calls before they reached the underpass. When the limo caught Curry in the underpass Curry said he heard two people from the limo yell "Get to Parkland!". Hill and Greer have verified they yelled this. By that time the limo was slightly ahead of Curry and accelerating, (Approx 35mph just before going under the overpass.)
 The idea that Curry would tell Mack that he needed to stop the motorcade to verify that they needed to rush to Parkland is not believable.
 Chaney would have also seen the panic in the plaza, heard Kinney's siren, and seen Curry and the limo accelerating out of the plaza. He may have also heard the two radio calls from Kinney and Kellerman.
As seen in the McIntyre photo Chaney would also have seen that the Limo was about 800 ft ahead of him by then and that it was racing for the onramp. Kinney's siren was still blaring. But instead of attempting to use his radio Chaney must have decided he would catch up to the limo before giving his message to Curry.
He was not aware the Limo would stop on the onramp. He must have assumed that he would be chasing it down the Stemmons freeway for some time before he could catch up and relay the most important and time sensitive message of his career. 
 If Chaney did catch up on the onramp Curry, would he still think he had to inform Curry that there was a problem in the motorcade at that point?  
 Davis Lifton has said they stopped on the onramp because Jackie tried to jump out of the limo. Possibly due to a delayed panic reaction. Maybe that is true and Curry's reason for stopping was a cover story for Jackie's benefit. But the sequence of events up to that point point make it very clear both Chaney and Curry already knew there was an emergency.  
 Gary Mack's story does not pass the smell test. It is more likely Mack made the whole thing up to explain away the testimony of Curry, Chaney, Hargis, Sorrels and Lawson. 
 

[Pat Speer]

6 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I first read the story about Chaney and Curry's  meeting happening on the Stemmons onramp in a piece from Gary Mack. He claimed they each came to him independently and related the same account. I think they had both passed away by the time he told the story so it could not be verified.
 It is one of the most absurd stories I have ever heard and is so full of holes that it is a joke, imo.
 According to Mack, that stop happened for two reasons. Greer did not know how to get to parkland and needed directions, and secondly Curry was not sure if there really was an emergency that would necessitate a rush to Parkland.
 It is true that Greer did not know the route to Parkland, but the idea of bringing their rush to the hospital to a halt so someone could inform Greer, or to make sure they even needed to rush to Parkland is ridiculous. If they suspected there was a medical emergency is Curry going to stop the motorcade to have a talk with them? Even if Curry wanted to instruct Greer or ascertain the possible injuries he could use the radio. In addition it does not make sense that Greer could get lost when he was right behind Curry. With sirens going the traffic was getting out of the way and there is no chance Greer and Curry would get separated by a traffic light.
The idea he would stop the motorcade is unthinkable. What is he going to do, have some cops check everyone to see if they have been shot?
 Then there is the testimony of Curry in which he gives the timeline. According to Curry the conversation with Chaney absolutely happens in the plaza before hitting the underpass. That is true of all the witnesses to Chaney's ride forward.
 By the time they get to the Stemmonns onramp Curry was fully aware there was an emergency. He heard the shots fired and then both Sorrels and Lawson yell 'Shots fired get to Parkland"(Per their testimony.).He sees the limo speed up towards him so he floors it. But he says the limo still caught up to him under the overpass. He must have heard Kinney's siren too. Kinney and Kellerman also put out radio calls before they reached the underpass. When the limo caught Curry in the underpass Curry said he heard two people from the limo yell "Get to Parkland!". Hill and Greer have verified they yelled this. By that time the limo was slightly ahead of Curry and accelerating, (Approx 35mph just before going under the overpass.)
 The idea that Curry would tell Mack that he needed to stop the motorcade to verify that they needed to rush to Parkland is not believable.
 Chaney would have also seen the panic in the plaza, heard Kinney's siren, and seen Curry and the limo accelerating out of the plaza. He may have also heard the two radio calls from Kinney and Kellerman.
As seen in the McIntyre photo Chaney would also have seen that the Limo was about 800 ft ahead of him by then and that it was racing for the onramp. Kinney's siren was still blaring. But instead of attempting to use his radio Chaney must have decided he would catch up to the limo before giving his message to Curry.
He was not aware the Limo would stop on the onramp. He must have assumed that he would be chasing it down the Stemmons freeway for some time before he could catch up and relay the most important and time sensitive message of his career. 
 If Chaney did catch up on the onramp Curry, would he still think he had to inform Curry that there was a problem in the motorcade at that point?  
 Davis Lifton has said they stopped on the onramp because Jackie tried to jump out of the limo. Possibly due to a delayed panic reaction. Maybe that is true and Curry's reason for stopping was a cover story for Jackie's benefit. But the sequence of events up to that point point make it very clear both Chaney and Curry already knew there was an emergency.  
 Gary Mack's story does not pass the smell test. It is more likely Mack made the whole thing up to explain away the testimony of Curry, Chaney, Hargis, Sorrels and Lawson. 
 

You are correct in that no way in heck did the limo stop on the on-ramp. My understanding of the story was that the limo raced past Curry and he wasn't sure what happened. And that Chaney caught up to him on the on-ramp and told him for a fact that the President was shot, and that Chaney, along with Jackson and I believe Martin then raced on up ahead and led the limo to Parkland. To my understanding this exchange between Chaney and Curry took but a few seconds. (I don't think they even stopped.) 

But if you have exact quotes from Mack claiming the limo came to a dead stop, and exact quotes from Curry claiming they stopped before they even reached the underpass, now that would be interesting. (I'm not sure this would even make sense seeing as Curry was already past the grassy knoll when the shots rang out and but a few seconds from the railroad bridge." 

The thought occurs that some witnesses used words like "plaza" and people assumed this meant east of the railroad bridge, while they may have meant east of the freeway. This kind of imprecision is evident all throughout this case. Such as when people say "occipital" or "firecracker."

[Jeff Royle]

The Muchmore film shows the lead car's tail light is lit-up (brakes being applied).  I'm not sure if the president's limo slowed down but I would agree that Connally was probably a bit too tall/big for the jump seat and was doing his best to sit comfortably in it.  That might mean he was leaning forward.

Edited February 22 by Jeff Royle

[Ron Bulman]

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

From Patspeer.com, Chapter 6:

Hi Pat.  Your link gives me a 403 Error, your client does not have permission, Forbidden "That's all we know".

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 2/21/2024 at 6:10 AM, Chris Bristow said:

Hargis, Sorrels, Lawson, Starves Ellis and Chaney(The bike cop who rode forward to Curry.) all said this happened before they reached the underpass. Hargis specifically said he saw Chaney throw it in 1st gear and race forward immediately after the head shot. But the Nix and Z films combined show Chaney never rode forward before Curry left the plaza.

Sources for the Hargis, Sorrels, Lawson, Ellis, and Chaney statements, please.llk

On 2/21/2024 at 6:10 AM, Chris Bristow said:

This puts the testimony and photographic records in question. Either all those witnesses were wrong, or the films were altered. I think if a limo stop was removed from the films there may be no time for Chaney to ride forward and talk to Curry. That would be reason to remove Chaney's ride forward.

 Putting alteration aside it is still perplexing how Chaney could drop it in 1st gear, accelerate  forward, cover maybe 125 ft, then slow back down to the speed of Curry's car in order to have their 3 sentence conversation before the limo catches them both.

The problem is, you can't "put alteration aside." 

I believe it was in JFK Horsemen (sorry, I don't have the link offhand) where one of the motorcycle officers described Hargis as running between the stoppedkkk limo and the follow-up car. The limo may have taken off in that space, but it would have delayed the follow-up car another second or two. (I wonder if anyone who saw the "other" Z film ever described this?)

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Hi Pat.  Your link gives me a 403 Error, your client does not have permission, Forbidden "That's all we know".

That's bizarre. This is happened before. I have added an image to a post, and double checked it minutes later and saw that it was there. And then noticed hours later that it it was no longer accessible. 

In any event, I gave it another go. 

Edited February 22 by Pat Speer