T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17

[Bill Brown]

The McIntyre photo was obviously taken seconds after the assassination. The Hertz clock reads 12:30.

When we look at the Dallas Police tapes, we see that the very first call after the 12:30 timestamp call is Chief Curry stating:
“Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.”
(A clear reference to the assassination)

 

This is an example of "real" time connecting with "police" time, probably within less than one minute.

"Real" time (the Hertz clock) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm.

"Police" time (the tapes) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm.

 

So why is it so difficult to accept that the police tapes are accurate when they show that T.F. Bowley called in the Tippit killing (using Tippit's squad car radio) at 1:17 (versus Bowley's statement that his watch read 1:10 when he arrived)?

 

Bowley's description of his actions upon arriving on the scene tells us he was on the patrol car radio in about one minute.

 

Was the clock in the dispatch room accurate at 12:30 and somehow very inaccurate by 1:17? The whole idea that the police tapes were off by as much as 6 minutes is complete nonsense.

 

Bowley arrives on the scene and walks over to the body and notes that there is nothing he can do for the officer.  He then goes to the patrol car, takes the mic from Benavides and reports the shooting to the dispatcher (Murray Jackson).  All in all, Bowley is on the radio about 60 to 90 seconds after arriving.  Bowley's report to the dispatcher was at 1:17.  Therefore, Bowley arrived around 1:15/1:16.  His 1960's era windup wristwatch, which he claims read 1:10 when he arrived, was 5 minutes slow.

 

[Gerry Down]

That's some nice logic.

Do we know for sure it was a wind-up watch? 

[Bill Brown]

3 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

That's some nice logic.

Do we know for sure it was a wind-up watch? 

 

A wind up watch as opposed to...?

I don't think digital watches existed until the early 70's.

 

[Gerry Down]

2 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

A wind up watch as opposed to...?

 

Battery powered ones.

I'd imagine battery powered wrist watches were rare though in 1963, though the first was introduced in 1957:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-first-battery-powered-watch#:~:text=Operating with the help of,watches that also used batteries.

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

His 1960's era windup wristwatch, which he claims read 1:10 when he arrived, was 5 minutes slow.

You could be right but there is another possibility: his watch was accurate and Bowley who I think first named that 1:10 time the next day was mistaken in memory of the time. A day-later memory of exact-minute  time from a tumultuous and eventful day with much sensory input could involve human witness error. If he told or wrote that time in real time or the same afternoon that would be a different matter, but to my knowledge there is no verification of that, only his later memory saying that was the exact time that day. 

[Bill Brown]

6 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Battery powered ones.

I'd imagine battery powered wrist watches were rare though in 1963, though the first was introduced in 1957:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-first-battery-powered-watch#:~:text=Operating with the help of,watches that also used batteries.

 

Battery powered wristwatches will consistently run slow when the battery is nearing the end of it's life.

Either way, I think it comes down to which you'd choose to rely on... A police radio which tracks time all day long as a course of daily business... versus... Bowley's wristwatch, along with his later recollection.

 

[Gerry Down]

13 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Battery powered wristwatches will consistently run slow when the battery is nearing the end of it's life.

Either way, I think it comes down to which you'd choose to rely on... A police radio which tracks time all day long as a course of daily business... versus... Bowley's wristwatch, along with his later recollection.

 

The radio timestamp is hard to argue with. 

[Bill Brown]

On 4/4/2024 at 3:32 PM, Gerry Down said:

The radio timestamp is hard to argue with. 

 

I think that's a perfect statement to wrap up this thread.

 

[Robert Morrow]

43 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

I think that's a perfect statement to wrap up this thread.

 

Bill Brown makes a good point.

But I still think Tippit was murdered at 1:06 to 1:07PM based on Helen Markham's WC testimonry. Markham was cocksure about this because she left her apartment laundry room at 1:04PM and the FBI timed her walk to 10th and Patten to be about 2-3 minutes.

Markham, of course, was going to catch her 1:12PM bus because you always go a bit early to catch your bus if you are going to work as a waitress somewhere.

 

[Bill Brown]

1 hour ago, Robert Morrow said:

Bill Brown makes a good point.

But I still think Tippit was murdered at 1:06 to 1:07PM based on Helen Markham's WC testimonry. Markham was cocksure about this because she left her apartment laundry room at 1:04PM and the FBI timed her walk to 10th and Patten to be about 2-3 minutes.

Markham, of course, was going to catch her 1:12PM bus because you always go a bit early to catch your bus if you are going to work as a waitress somewhere.

 

 

This means you're choosing to believe Markham over the accuracy of the police tapes.

By the way, Markham was also "cocksure" that Oswald was the man she saw shoot Tippit.  So, what now?

 

[Greg Doudna]

On 4/7/2024 at 3:59 PM, Bill Brown said:

This means you're choosing to believe Markham over the accuracy of the police tapes.

By the way, Markham was also "cocksure" that Oswald was the man she saw shoot Tippit.  So, what now?

There may be more to this Helen Markham timing issue than meets the eye. Assume (as I do) that Bill is correct on the police tapes and 1:15 is the correct time Tippit was shot (or 1:14:30 by Myers' estimate if it is possible to sharpshoot the timing that precisely). 

Gavan McMahan's recently published material from interviews with the family of Helen Markham contains some things that seem questionable and mixed-up, but one of the things that may have something to it is the family says Helen Markham had been asked to be at that scene to witness something. This could be blown off if it were not that there is an FBI interview report that one of the members of Helen Markham's son Jimmy Markham's gang, Jimmy Burt, had parked his car in an unusual way--headed backward--immediately next to Tippit's patrol car (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10598#relPageId=30)--a mechanism of Jimmy Burt and his friend William Smith getting to the crime scene that is abandoned in all their other accounts. 

However, witness Frank Wright from his front yard moments after the shooting saw that car of Jimmy Burt parked next to the Tippit patrol car in that same odd manner, and saw it drive away, and that confirms the timing of when Jimmy Burt and Wm Smith were there in Jimmy Burt's car: as odd and as unconsidered as this has been, Jimmy Burt's car, with Jimmy Burt in that car (and presumably William Smith), was parked there when Tippit's patrol car arrived to pull over right next to it, maybe to meet it. That is, Jimmy Burt's car was stopped facing the wrong way on the side of Tenth, and Tippit pulled his patrol car right up behind it. 

This timing is confirmed by a third witness, as told by Ray Schaeffer in an email:

" 'In 1988 I was at the Tippit murder scene that summer. A woman and her son who lived across the street from where Tippit was shot struck up a conversation with me. I learned from her that she was the woman who put a blanket over Tippit. When talking to me she said she noticed a grey coupe blocked the driveway in front of where Tippit pulled up behind the car. She noticed a policeman get out and go toward the coupe. The next thing she noticed was hearing shots. She ran back in the house and got a blanket off the couch and placed it on Tippit." (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/12363-new-info-on-tippit/). 

That "grey coupe" was the same car Frank Wright saw, which was Jimmy Burt's car, and which Jimmy Burt himself said he parked next to Tippit's--though both Jimmy Burt and William Smith distanced themselves from that and for some reason that never entered the narrative of the Tippit case as it is commonly told. 

It doesn't mean Jimmy Burt or William Smith killed Tippit or knew that Tippit would be killed; I do not believe they did, or would. 

But what it can mean is that Tippit was there to meet them at a prearranged meeting time of 1:15 pm for some other reason. All that needs to be supposed is Tippit's killer--Craford of Ruby's circle I suspect--by some means had prior knowledge of that 1:15 meeting, when and where. 1:15 would be the time of the preplanned meeting based on that is when the kililng of Tippit did happen. The 1:15 meeting would be the means by which Tippit would be known to be there, by his killer who arrived in time to ambush him in a professional execution at that location.

Tippit's killer arrived walking from the east (unconfirmed starting from where, but Ruby's apartment was only 3-4 blocks east of 10th and Patton). The back and forth, east and west, of Tippit's killer on the sidewalk just before Tippit was shot are not to be explained in terms of Myers' interpretation of a pedestrian (Oswald) changing directions to avoid having his face seen by a police car, and then that flagging Tippit's attention as suspicious. No, it was Tippit's killer moving back and forth on the sidewalk as Tippit's car approached and his killer was flagging down Tippit's car and getting to the passenger side window (vent) of the patrol car to speak to him. It was part of the ambush. Tippit was ambushed. His killer said something through the window vent, enough to get Tippit to get out of the car, then the killer shot him dead with five bullets four of which hit and were fatal. 

Jimmy Burt (and William Smith if Jimmy Burt was truthful in telling the FBI Wm Smith was in the car with him) would be sitting in Burt's car only one car-length away when the murder happened. It depends which way they were looking, but if they saw the murder, they would be in the absolute best position as witnesses of the killer of any, even if this has not heretofore been realized. It may or may not be coincidence that Wm Smith was originally reported by a family member to be saying Oswald on the news was not the killer of Tippit that he saw, and a few years later Chapman in National Enquirer quoted Jimmy Burt as saying categorically that Oswald was not the killer. If they were a block away at the time of the shooting, there is little weight in what they said because that is too far away to give much weight. But if they were sitting in a car only feet away from the killer shooting Tippit dead, then they would have known, either way, whether it was or was not, Oswald, because they would have been able to see so closely and directly. 

What emerges is that some prearranged meeting of Jimmy Burt with officer Tippit, set for 1:15 at that location, with Jimmy Burt perhaps assisting Tippit in easily spotting Jimmy Burt's car by parking facing the wrong direction by the curb, was how the killer could know when and where to appear to ambush Tippit and kill him, a mechanism for how that could have happened. I assume the killing happened as a shock and surprise to Jimmy Burt and Wm Smith and would be motive to come up with some other story of where they were and how they ran to the scene, etc. On Tippit's end of it, he may have quietly that morning asked his friend Murray Jackson working as dispatcher that day to assign him to that area of Oak Cliff as a favor, which could account for that, and also support the idea of a prearranged meeting. 

To return to Helen Markham. Its decades later, but from McMahon in Garrison (Nov 2023 issue):

"According to Laverne [Helen Markham's daughter-in-law, living today], Helen was shut down very quickly by the authorities and directed not to talk about the matter. Helen was not allowed to tell the truth of what she saw and what she knew. She was coached by the authorities on what she was supposed to say, and not say. Helen was intimidated and forced by the authorities to lie. She was frightened, confused, and didn't know who to trust ... Over the years and on a number of occasions, the authorities paid Helen several thousands of dollars. This was an inducement to maintain her continued cooperation .... the first payment was on her return from Washington where she gave her testimony to the Warren Commission...

"... According to the Markham family, Helen was a prearranged or planted witness. She was paid to be in position at Tenth Street, Oak Cliff, to witness... She was acting out a role and pretending to be on her way to work. Helen had to make it look like a coincidence that she just happened to be in the area whilst on her way to work. She was taking up her planted witness position. The family claims that at some point Helen walked eastbound on the sidewalk, across Patton Avenue, on the north side of Tenth Street ... Helen Markham's son, James, was the leader of the Oak Cliff street gang which had about twelve members ... involved in criminal activities, including auto theft, breaking-and-entering, stealing, and vandalism [but, n.b. murder and violent assaults not mentioned] ..."

This could be an explanation of why Helen Markham left her home at 1:04 pm so early, much earlier than needed to get to the Eatwell Cafe for the start of her shift. 

The reason gang leader Jimmy Markham, her son, might ask his mother to be there as a witness maybe would be to witness a Tippit/Jimmy Burt encounter in case it resulted in Jimmy Burt's arrest or something. 

None of these people would be party to or have advance knowledge of the murder of Tippit, which was probably a bit more serious trouble than anyone in Jimmy Markham's gang would wish to get into (murder of a police officer). 

Helen Markham's surprise and terror at seeing Tippit murdered would be real. She did not know or see that coming.

A recent interview of cabbie Scoggins' grandson, with credit to Gavan McMahon for obtaining it--the grandson sounding credible relays what his father told him, that Scoggins had been asked in advance to be parked where he was that day by someone unidentified associated with Ruby. Scoggins might assume it was because someone might be needing a cab. It may support the Tippit murder was premeditated, a professional execution, and unknown to Scoggins he, Scoggins, was slated to be a getaway car. However, streetsmart Scoggins, upon hearing/seeing Tippit killed, scrambled instantly out of and away from his cab precisely so he would not be carjacked at gunpoint.

The killer ran around Tenth to Patton to Scoggins' cab but was not quite fast enough, Scoggins was already out of the cab. The killer had no choice but to continue on foot, which probably was not his original plan if the cabbie had still been inside the cab and the killer may have planned on utilizing his chauffeuring services.

If someone in Ruby's circle set that up with Scoggins, the same circle in contact with Jimmy Markham's gang could have something set up for a Jimmy Burt meeting with Tippit at Tenth and Patton as the pretext to have Tippit there at a certain time, where (unknown to these other persons) Tippit would be ambushed and killed.

Even though the assumption would be all of these people were actually innocent and unwitting of the murder of Tippit, they could easily have been suspected and questioned, if the narrative had not so immediately and decisively been perceived to be closed around Oswald, believed to render other investigation unnecessary. 

Edited April 9 by Greg Doudna

[Robert Morrow]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

This means you're choosing to believe Markham over the accuracy of the police tapes.

By the way, Markham was also "cocksure" that Oswald was the man she saw shoot Tippit.  So, what now?

 

The police tapes say nothing about the exact time Tippit got shot.

Helen Markham did in fact identify Oswald in the police line up... AFTER SHE SAW A PICTURE OF HIM ON TV: Helen Markham (spartacus-educational.com)

 

[Ron Ege]

I "don't have any dog in this fight" - just curiosity.

Some examples of Tippit's reported alleged DOA time at Methodist Hospital.

- 1:15 p.m. 

Tippit_Murder (harveyandlee.net)

- 1: 25 p.m.

From Wikipedia (link would not copy/paste)

- 1:30:30 p.m.

J.D. TIPPIT / November 22, 1963 - The Evidence - Timetable of Events (jdtippit.com)

- 1:15 p.m.

- [Autopsy Report on Officer J. D. Tippit, by Earl F. Rose #1] - Page 7 of 28 - The Portal to Texas History (unt.edu)

Lastly (maybe someone has another link/source/reference?), we have the Dallas PD timestamp, heretofore mentioned.

It would seem that Dr. Earl F. Rose would use Officer Tippit's DOA time that was allegedly noted by Dr. Richard A. Liguori, the on-duty Methodist Emergency Room (ER) doctor.  

Would the ER doctor just approximate the DOA time or maybe the ER clock and/or the doctor's watch was off?

Who to believe?

 

 

 

[Pete Mellor]

16 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

There may be more to this Helen Markham timing issue than meets the eye.

Once again, Greg, utilising the McMahon probe, throws a highly logical alternate spanner into the workings of the Tippit case.

[Bill Brown]

Greg Doudna said:

"...and a few years later Chapman in National Enquirer quoted Jimmy Burt as saying categorically that Oswald was not the killer."

 

Just a side note, Greg...

I have the audio of the entire interview between Chapman and Burt.

Nowhere in the interview does Burt say that the killer was NOT Oswald.

@Greg Doudna