A Question for the Warren Commission Apologists

[Denny Zartman]

1 hour ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

The Warren Report is bad. The opposing views are piecemeal, kooky, and less credible.

The motorcade was 5 minutes behind schedule. Oswald was seen on the first floor at 12:25 pm, the time the motorcade was scheduled to pass.

The rifle was misidentified as a 7.65 Mauser by authorities, one of which had worked at a store selling rifles. The make and caliber of the rifle was also misidentified despite the fact that the Mannlicher Carcano had "Made Italy" and "6.5 Cal" engraved on it.

Oswald's prints did not show up on the rifle until after his death. Nitrate tests on his cheek were negative. According to the official story, he was seen on the 2nd floor 2 minutes after the assassination, not sweaty, not out of breath, not panicked.

And you think it's more credible than he was the assassin than not?

The guy who stopped for a Coke after murdering the president, and the guy who went to the movies after murdering a cop. You and I must have very different definitions of the word "credibility."

[Bill Brown]

 

The bottom line... the official conclusion is no evidence of any conspiracy.

An article by Fred Litwin in which he posts the letter from the Department of Justice...

 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/paul-bleau-chokes-part-5?fbclid=IwAR3PLD95zILJ3RZbEUhVOkqQbTm3klsvW0NSRryeq2DhyOmGhyz4pC0zmRw_aem_AfYMEpGy0wr_OZs6_nXORupgl0chd1LEyvBEifIXaQ2zU5j8LvWjen88ulfyQ5hWaN526wlcyo-kZ7tdeq2DS94_

 

@Pat Speer

Edited April 9 by Bill Brown

[Joe Bauer]

I've posted this video a dozen times because LBJ says in it he was never completely relieved of the fact that others besides Oswald could have been involved in the JFKA.

If Johnson himself had doubts about the lone gunman conclusion of the WC, it's kind of hard to blow off his shocking personal feeling comments to Walter Cronkite as meaningless.

And when the three biggest wheels behind and actually on the Warren Commission from creation to finish were well known proven JFK and RFK haters ( LBJ, HOOVER, DULLES ) how can anyone not see the incredibly obvious bias incongruity of it's make up and control?

LBJ's Confession

 

 

 

 

 

18K views2 years ago

 

JFK: Just the Facts

Crucial parts of an interview LBJ did with Walter Cronkite in 1969 about the JFK assassination. The black and white portion was ...

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Warren Commission apologists believe in magic. And not with just the Magic Bullet:

 

The Zapruder film proves that a huge chunk of scalp, skull, and brain matter was blown off the top of Kennedy's head.

It magically put itself back together by the time it reached Parkland Hospital. Twenty doctors and nurses saw no problem with the top of Kennedy's head... it was all there, neatly put back into place.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

More WC apologist magic:

Doctors unsuccessfully tried to resuscitate J.D. Tippit at the hospital, and finally pronounced him dead at 1:15 PM. Three minutes later, an ambulance was dispatched to go to the crime scene and pick up a dead Tippit... who was then taken to the hospital.

 

Had the WC accepted the time of shooting that all the evidence indicated -- 1:06 PM -- the above inconsistency among others would not have occurred. But the problem with that is that Oswald could not have arrived in time to shoot Tippit st 1:06 PM.

 

[Bill Brown]

6 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

More WC apologist magic:

Doctors unsuccessfully tried to resuscitate J.D. Tippit at the hospital, and finally pronounced him dead at 1:15 PM. Three minutes later, an ambulance was dispatched to go to the crime scene and pick up a dead Tippit... who was then taken to the hospital.

 

Had the WC accepted the time of shooting that all the evidence indicated -- 1:06 PM -- the above inconsistency among others would not have occurred. But the problem with that is that Oswald could not have arrived in time to shoot Tippit st 1:06 PM.

 

 

All of the evidence indicates that the Tippit shooting occurred at 1:06?  Laughable.

The Dallas Police tape tells you when the shooting occurred and it was much later than 1:06.

 

[Donald Willis]

5 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

The motorcade was 5 minutes behind schedule. Oswald was seen on the first floor at 12:25 pm, the time the motorcade was scheduled to pass.

Who saw him there then?

[Mark Ulrik]

33 minutes ago, Donald Willis said:

Who saw him there then?

I suspect that it comes from Gil Jesus. See the response to him that I posted in the Pat Speer interview thread a moment ago.

Edited April 9 by Mark Ulrik

[Cliff Varnell]

100% proof of conspiracy was presented by Michael Baden of the HSCA and James Humes in his WC testimony.

<emphasis added>

Michael Baden, Head of the HSCA Medical Panel

"In [JFK's] jacket and the underlying shirt there is a perforation of the fabric that corresponds directly with the location of the perforation of the skin of the right upper back that, the panel concluded, was an entrance gunshot perforation that entered the back of the President.  This is correspondingly seen in the shirt underneath." 

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_Vol1_0100b.htm

 

The WC testimony of Commander James Humes pg 364-5 

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/pdf/WH2_Humes.pdf

<emphasis added>

Mr. SPECTOR: Have you had an opportunity to examine the clothing which has been identified for you as being that worn by the President on the day of the assassination? 

Commander HUMES: Yes; yesterday, just shortly before the Commission hearing today was begun, Mr. Chief Justice, we had opportunity for the first time to examine the clothing worn by the late President. In private conversation among ourselves before this opportunity, we predicted we would find defects in the clothing corresponding with the defects which were found, of course, on the body of the late President. ..

Mr. SPECTOR: …Doctor Humes, will you describe for the record what hole, if any, is observable in the back of that garment which would be at or about the spot you have described as being the point of entry on the President’s back or lower neck. 

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular. Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385. 

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be accurate to state that the hole which you have identified as being the point of entry is approximately 6 inches below the top of the collar, and 2 inches to the right of the middle seam of the coat? 

Commander HUMES. That is approximately correct, sir. This defect, I might say, continues on through the material.  </q>

The bullet holes in the clothes match the back wound -- too low to associate with the throat wound.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

All of the evidence indicates that the Tippit shooting occurred at 1:06?  Laughable.

 

Yep... 1:06 PM:

Helen Markham had just arrived at the northwest corner of 10th & Patton, en route to catch the city bus one block south at Jefferson & Patton (at 1:15 PM). She told the Warren Commission it was "6 or 7 minutes after 1  [1:06 or 1:07 PM]" 

Mrs. Margie Higgins, who lived at 417 East 10th St. was watching television and later told reporters, "Well, I was watching the news on television and for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock and said the time was six minutes after one (1:06 PM). At that point I heard the shots."

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was searching the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, when a rifle was discovered. Craig wrote, “… At that exact moment an unknown Dallas police officer came running up the stairs and advised Capt. Fritz that a Dallas policeman had been shot in the Oak Cliff area. I instinctively looked at my watch. The time was 1:06 PM."

 

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

The Dallas Police tape tells you when the shooting occurred and it was much later than 1:06.

 

It has been shown in numerous ways that the original DPD Dictabelts were recreated for the WC with false times that are ~9 minutes later than reality.

One example of this is the fact that official documents indicate Tippit dying at the hospital before being picked up by an ambulance. Another example is the evidence that the shooting occurred at 1:06 PM, not several minutes later as noted by the WC.

Here is yet another example.

T.F. Bowley was driving west on 10th Street and arrived a few minutes after the shooting. He looked at his watch--the time was 1:10 PM.  An original DPD police transcript, found in the National Archives, lists the time of Bowley's call  to the police as 1:10 PM.  The original DPD transcript (CE 705) shows the report of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:10 PM. The FBI transcript, (CE 1974) prepared in August, 1964, lists the reporting time of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:19 PM--nine minutes later.

 

[Bill Brown]

37 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yep... 1:06 PM:

Helen Markham had just arrived at the northwest corner of 10th & Patton, en route to catch the city bus one block south at Jefferson & Patton (at 1:15 PM). She told the Warren Commission it was "6 or 7 minutes after 1  [1:06 or 1:07 PM]" 

Mrs. Margie Higgins, who lived at 417 East 10th St. was watching television and later told reporters, "Well, I was watching the news on television and for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock and said the time was six minutes after one (1:06 PM). At that point I heard the shots."

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was searching the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, when a rifle was discovered. Craig wrote, “… At that exact moment an unknown Dallas police officer came running up the stairs and advised Capt. Fritz that a Dallas policeman had been shot in the Oak Cliff area. I instinctively looked at my watch. The time was 1:06 PM."

 

 

It has been shown in numerous ways that the original DPD Dictabelts were recreated for the WC with false times that are ~9 minutes later than reality.

One example of this is the fact that official documents indicate Tippit dying at the hospital before being picked up by an ambulance. Another example is the evidence that the shooting occurred at 1:06 PM, not several minutes later as noted by the WC.

Here is yet another example.

T.F. Bowley was driving west on 10th Street and arrived a few minutes after the shooting. He looked at his watch--the time was 1:10 PM.  An original DPD police transcript, found in the National Archives, lists the time of Bowley's call  to the police as 1:10 PM.  The original DPD transcript (CE 705) shows the report of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:10 PM. The FBI transcript, (CE 1974) prepared in August, 1964, lists the reporting time of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:19 PM--nine minutes later.

 

 

"Yep... 1:06 PM:"

 

No Sir.

 

Helen Markham had just arrived at the northwest corner of 10th & Patton, en route to catch the city bus one block south at Jefferson & Patton (at 1:15 PM). She told the Warren Commission it was "6 or 7 minutes after 1  [1:06 or 1:07 PM]"

 

She also told the Warren Commission that Oswald was the man she saw shoot the police man.  So, what now?

 

Mrs. Margie Higgins, who lived at 417 East 10th St. was watching television and later told reporters, "Well, I was watching the news on television and for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock and said the time was six minutes after one (1:06 PM). At that point I heard the shots."

 

Two things.  First, what reporters did Higgins say this to?  Do you have footage of it?  I bet you don't.  This supposed claim by Higgins came from a very questionable researcher decades later.

Second, there was no moment in any of the broadcasts where the announcer looks at a clock and notes the time as being 1:06.  Simply didn't happen.

 

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was searching the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, when a rifle was discovered. Craig wrote, “… At that exact moment an unknown Dallas police officer came running up the stairs and advised Capt. Fritz that a Dallas policeman had been shot in the Oak Cliff area. I instinctively looked at my watch. The time was 1:06 PM."

 

Good grief.

In 1968, during an interview (along with Penn Jones) with the L.A. Free Press, Roger Craig was asked about the Tippit shooting.  Craig told the interviewer that the shooting occurred at 1:45.

Jones immediately corrected Craig, informing him that the shooting occurred around 1:15.  Craig responded with "Oh?  Is that right? Okay." (or words to that effect, I'm going by memory)

The bottom line is, in 1968, Craig obviously had no idea what time the Tippit shooting occurred.

Then, in the early 70's when writing his manuscript, Craig tells the story of being in Dealey Plaza and hearing of the shooting of the police officer in Oak Cliff.  In the scenario, Craig supposedly looks at his watch and notes that it said the time was 1:06.

Does anyone really believe that Craig heard of the shooting over in Oak Cliff, looked down at his watch and noted that the time was 1:06.... And then less than five years later, he is being interviewed and easily accepts the correction that the time of the shooting occurred at 1:15, only to then tell the story a few years later (early '70s) that his watch said it was 1:06 when he heard of the shooting?

In the 1968 interview with the LA Free Press, it is painfully obvious that Craig had no idea what time the Tippit shooting occurred.  So then why would he say the shooting happened at 1:06 when he was writing his "manuscript" in the early '70s?  Answer?  Because he was trying to sell the manuscript.

 

T.F. Bowley was driving west on 10th Street and arrived a few minutes after the shooting. He looked at his watch--the time was 1:10 PM.  An original DPD police transcript, found in the National Archives, lists the time of Bowley's call  to the police as 1:10 PM.  The original DPD transcript (CE 705) shows the report of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:10 PM. The FBI transcript, (CE 1974) prepared in August, 1964, lists the reporting time of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:19 PM--nine minutes later.

 

Listen to the tapes and follow the timestamps given by the dispatcher.  The dispatcher never says 1:10.  The 1:10 notation on the document is old hat and has been debunked many years ago.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

45 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yep... 1:06 PM: 

Helen Markham had just arrived at the northwest corner of 10th & Patton, en route to catch the city bus one block south at Jefferson & Patton (at 1:15 PM). She told the Warren Commission it was "6 or 7 minutes after 1  [1:06 or 1:07 PM]"

45 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

She also told the Warren Commission that Oswald was the man she saw shoot the police man.

 

What?? Markham told the Warren Commission FIFTEEN times that Oswald wasn't the man who she saw shoot Tippit!

 

Mr. Ball: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Mrs. Markham: Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Mrs. Markham: No, sir.

Mr. Ball: You did not? Did you see anybody - I have asked you this question before - did you recognize anybody from their face?

Mrs. Markham: From their face, no.

Mr. Ball: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Mrs. Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Mr. Ball: I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Mrs. Markham: No, I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Mr. Ball: No one of the four?

Mrs. Markham: No one of them.

Mr. Ball: No one of all four?

Mrs. Markham: No, sir.

Mr. Ball: Was there a number two man in there?

Mrs. Markham: Number two is the one I picked.<:f>

Mr. Ball: Well, I though you just told me that you hadn't-

Mrs. Markham: I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing.

Mr. Ball: No, I wanted to know if that day when you were in there if you saw anyone in there-

Mrs. Markham: Number two.

Mr. Ball: What did you say when you saw number two?

Mrs. Markham: Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they kept asking me which one, which one. I said number two. When I said number two, I just got weak.

Mr. Ball: What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?

Mrs. Markham: Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.

Mr. Ball: You recognized him from his appearance?

Mrs. Markham: I asked- I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cool chills just run over me.

o
o
o

Mr. BALL. I have two Commission Exhibits, 535 and 533. I will show them to you, Mrs. Markham, and I will ask you if you have ever seen the man who is pictured there, whose picture is shown on these two exhibits.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Never have seen him before. Do you think he might have been one of the men you talked to before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no.

Mr. BALL. They are pictures of the same man.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. We are inquiring whether you had ever seen him after the assassination.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I know. No, not this man. This man I have never seen. I have never seen this man in my life.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I don’t. It is just a picture of a man. I don’t know him.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, do you have any further questions?

Mr. BALL. No further questions

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yep, 1:06 PM:

Mrs. Margie Higgins, who lived at 417 East 10th St. was watching television and later told reporters, "Well, I was watching the news on television and for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock and said the time was six minutes after one (1:06 PM). At that point I heard the shots."

 

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

First, what reporters did Higgins say this to?  Do you have footage of it?  I bet you don't.  This supposed claim by Higgins came from a very questionable researcher decades later.

 

The person I got that story from was a little loose in his characterization of the Higgins interview. The "reporters" he spoke of was actually researcher Barry Ernest. The quote is from an unplanned interview he had with Higgins, which he recorded in his book.

Higgins had remembered the time of the shooting after all those years because she heard the 1:16 PM time reported on the news in 1963 and she realized that the real time was ten minutes prior. She told Ernest, "I'd bet my life" on that time.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

Second, there was no moment in any of the broadcasts where the announcer looks at a clock and notes the time as being 1:06.  Simply didn't happen.

 

Oh my gosh, how old are you, Bill?

Television was funny back then, with an awful lot of live broadcasts featuring absolute amateurs. I remember one local TV show called "Dialing for Dollars" where the host would randomly pick a phone number, call it, wait for six rings to pass, and then count to ten to give the household more time to answer the phone. If a person did answer, the host would ask a question. The person would win some amount of money if they got the answer right.

It was all very corny. I just looked it up in Wikipedia and was surprised to find an article on it. Our local Dialing for Dollars set looked a lot like the one on the left here:

 

It's not at all surprising that a live host back then would give out the time of day.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It has been shown in numerous ways that the original DPD Dictabelts were recreated for the WC with false times that are ~9 minutes later than reality.  To give Oswald more time to get to the Tippit site.

4 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Here's one example:  T.F. Bowley was driving west on 10th Street and arrived a few minutes after the shooting. He looked at his watch--the time was 1:10 PM.  An original DPD police transcript, found in the National Archives, lists the time of Bowley's call  to the police as 1:10 PM.  The original DPD transcript (CE 705) shows the report of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:10 PM. The FBI transcript, (CE 1974) prepared in August, 1964, lists the reporting time of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:19 PM--nine minutes later

 

4 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Listen to the tapes and follow the timestamps given by the dispatcher.  The dispatcher never says 1:10.

 

LOL, oh really? The dispatcher never says 1:10?

Lookie here:

 

Disp 10-4 603 and 602, 1:10 p .m .
6C2 What's that address on Jefferson?
Disp 501 East 10th .
85 85 out .
19 19 .
Disp 19 .
19, Give me the correct address on the shooting .
Dizp 501 East 10th .
105 105 .
602 602 Code 6
Unknown Was 519 E . Jefferson correct?
Disp We have 2 locations, 501 E . Jefferson and 501 E . 10th.
19, are you enroute?
Uknown This is an officer
19 to-4 .
19 19 is enroute .
Disp 10-4, 19.
605 605 Code 5 .
Disp 10-4, 605, 1:10.
Disp 85 .
602 602 .
Disp 85 . . . .
85, 85 .
Disp The subject's running west on Jefferson from the location.
85 10-4 .
Disp No physical description .
Citizen [Bowley] hello, hello, hello . . . .
602 602 . . .
Citizen [Bowley] . . . . from out here on 10th Street, 300 block . This police
officer's just shot . I think he's dead .
Disp 10-4, we have the information . The Citizen using the
radio, remain off the radio now .
 

From p. 408 and 409 of CE-705:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_705.pdf

 

The dispatcher says it's 1:10 PM twice, just before Bowley gets on the radio! This is precisely the time that Bowley says he made the radio call!

As I said, the Dictabelt and transcript were altered to show a later time -- about 9 minutes later -- to give Oswald more time to get there to supposedly shoot Tippit. But the coverup artists made a mistake and didn't change this 1:10 PM time. The error was caught later and attempts made to correct it, but it was too late to cover all their tracks!

 

[Bill Brown]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

What?? Markham told the Warren Commission FIFTEEN times that Oswald wasn't the man who she saw shoot Tippit!

 

Mr. Ball: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Mrs. Markham: Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Mrs. Markham: No, sir.

Mr. Ball: You did not? Did you see anybody - I have asked you this question before - did you recognize anybody from their face?

Mrs. Markham: From their face, no.

Mr. Ball: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Mrs. Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Mr. Ball: I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Mrs. Markham: No, I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Mr. Ball: No one of the four?

Mrs. Markham: No one of them.

Mr. Ball: No one of all four?

Mrs. Markham: No, sir.

Mr. Ball: Was there a number two man in there?

Mrs. Markham: Number two is the one I picked.<:f>

Mr. Ball: Well, I though you just told me that you hadn't-

Mrs. Markham: I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing.

Mr. Ball: No, I wanted to know if that day when you were in there if you saw anyone in there-

Mrs. Markham: Number two.

Mr. Ball: What did you say when you saw number two?

Mrs. Markham: Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they kept asking me which one, which one. I said number two. When I said number two, I just got weak.

Mr. Ball: What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?

Mrs. Markham: Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.

Mr. Ball: You recognized him from his appearance?

Mrs. Markham: I asked- I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cool chills just run over me.

o
o
o

Mr. BALL. I have two Commission Exhibits, 535 and 533. I will show them to you, Mrs. Markham, and I will ask you if you have ever seen the man who is pictured there, whose picture is shown on these two exhibits.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Never have seen him before. Do you think he might have been one of the men you talked to before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no.

Mr. BALL. They are pictures of the same man.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. We are inquiring whether you had ever seen him after the assassination.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I know. No, not this man. This man I have never seen. I have never seen this man in my life.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I don’t. It is just a picture of a man. I don’t know him.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, do you have any further questions?

Mr. BALL. No further questions

 

 

 

"What?? Markham told the Warren Commission FIFTEEN times that Oswald wasn't the man who she saw shoot Tippit!"

 

No, she doesn't tell the Warren Commission that at all.  She was confused about what Ball was asking her and we know this because she very plainly states that the number two man was the man she saw shoot the policeman.  Oswald was the number two man.

Also, in a filmed interview, Markham says that Oswald is the man she saw shoot Tippit.

So I ask you... What does obvious confusion during her testimony in 1964 have to do with the FACT that she positively identified Oswald on the night of November 22nd, 1963?