Under Cover of Night

[Joe Bauer]

I've stated this several times over the years.

If Russia and/or Cuba were really behind the JFKA our military and intelligence people and LBJ himself would have known this. 

Okay...if so, what would you think their response would be or should have been in a retaliatory sense?

The action of killing ( or even organizing his killing...even through a Manchurian Candidate ) our sitting President is about as egregious an action one could imagine one adversarial nation perpetrating against another... debatably an act of war!

LeMay and other top military people had to be restrained from promoting or even considering a "first strike" action against the Soviets during the Cold War. I think those Dr. Strangelove mentality characters would have wanted a justification event to occur to promote their most aggressive agenda. 

What better justification event could there be than the killing of our president? 

So, the fact that this super retaliatory scenario was not even reported in any well documented way by the Generals known for holding that sentiment suggest ( to me anyways ) that they knew the Soviets and Cuba were not the perpetrators of the JFKA.

And even if any first strike talk was struck down despite Russia and Cuba being involved and we knew it...don't you think we would still have hammered the Soviets and Cuba in some other massive ways to retaliate for their ultimate act of war action against us?

Yes, for the next 5 decades we kept Cuba in a hugely enforced international trade blockade lockdown economically but no more than before the JFKA.

Our undermining actions against the Soviets were no more aggressive than before the JFKA.

I cannot believe that we didn't know whether the Soviets and Cuba were behind the JFKA. I sense we knew they weren't.

 

Edited April 27 by Joe Bauer

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

What evidence implicating Oswald are you talking about, Sandy? 

 

Oh I don't know, Roger. Maybe whatever it was that got the whole police force out to arrest Oswald... which they did at Texas Theater.

I didn't say it was valid evidence.

 

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

And of course they knew [Oswald] didn't do it.

 

Say what?

LBJ was hoping for a death bed confession from Oswald. Why would he have hoped for that if he knew Oswald was innocent?

Of course LBJ and Hoover thought Oswald was guilty.

 

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

Johnson chose to go with the lone nut story because he wanted no part in blaming Cuba or Russia, not because it was somehow the easy choice. 

 

That IS the easy choice!

 

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

The same question goes for your claim that there was evidence implicating Cuba and Russia.

 

I'll let J. Edgar Hoover tell you. Here is what he said to LBJ over the phone regarding the evidence implicating Cuba:

"This angle in Mexico is giving us a great deal of trouble because the story there is of this man Oswald getting $6,500 from the Cuban embassy and then coming back to this country with it. We're not able to prove that fact, but the information was that he was there on the 18th of September in Mexico City and we are able to prove conclusively he was in New Orleans that day. Now then they've changed the dates. The story came in changing the dates to the 28th of September and he was in Mexico City on the 28th. Now the Mexican police have again arrested this woman Duran, who is a member of the Cuban embassy... and we're going to confront her with the original informant, who saw the money pass, so he says, and we're also going to put the lie detector test on him."

Oswald reportedly had been paid $6500 for the hit in the Cuban Consulate. And was paling around with Silvia Duran and some Cuban officials while in Mexico City. (This according Elena Garro, June Cobb, and Gilberto Alvarado.) And then there was the evidence that Oswald met with KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov at the Soviet Embassy. And the letter Oswald supposedly sent to the Soviet Embassy in Washington DC saying that he had conducted his business with Comrade Kostin (i.e. Kostikov).

 

[Sandy Larsen]

9 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

So, the fact that this super retaliatory scenario was not even reported in any well documented way by the Generals known for holding that sentiment suggest ( to me anyways ) that they knew Russian and Cuba were not the perpetrators of the JFKA.

 

Joe,

The Generals and CIA were the perpetrators of the assassination. They designed it to looked like Cuba and Russia were behind it.

The General didn't report that the Cubans/Russian were behind the assassination because they are not an investigative body.

J. Edgar Hoover did indeed discover the evidence that the Cubans/Russians were behind the assassination. The faked evidence, that is. But he didn't know it was faked. At least not until much later.

 

[Robert Morrow]

On 4/23/2024 at 7:48 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

OMG, it's really hard to take you seriously when you say things like that.

 

Do you know why Lyndon Johnson did not want Robert Kennedy to be *his* Vice President in 1964?

Because he did not want to put anyone on the Democratic ticket who would murder him. The reason LBJ would say something like that is LBJ knows that Robert Kennedy knows that LBJ murdered JFK. And the other reason for that comment is LBJ knows that he and Sam Rayburn strong armed/bullied JFK in a hostile takeover of the Vice Presidential spot for LBJ on the 1960 Democratic ticket.

And the reason WHY LBJ made a hostile takeover of the Vice Presidency was because relations with the Kennedys were so rancid and toxic that LBJ knew that if JFK were elected president, the Kennedys would immediately move to have LBJ overthrown as the Senate Democratic Majority Leader - that gig was over.

The context of the conversation below is LBJ telling his longtime pal and former aide Texas Governor John Connally why it would be completely unacceptable for Johnson to put RFK on the 1964 Democratic ticket.

LBJ to John Connally (7/23/64) on why he would not have RFK as his Vice President on the 1964 Democratic ticket: "I'm not going to let them put somebody in bed with me that'll murder me."

[Michael Beschloss, Taking Charge: The Johnson White House Tapes, 1963-1964 (1997), p. 470]

 [Lawrence Leamer, Sons of Camelot: The Fate of an American Dynasty (2004), p. 18] … Also in  [Laurent Guyenot, The Unspoken Kennedy Truth, pp. 7-8]

 Lyndon Johnson speaking with John Connally on the phone (7/23/64) about how he is not going to take Robert Kennedy as a VP on the Demo ticket:

 QUOTE

 I think I’ll have that conversation…. I’ll call you afterwards and we probably will have to make a deep pitch to governors … and … leaders… and see if they’ll stay with the President. Then I just think I have to say that if they don’t, I’m not going to let them put somebody [Robert Kennedy] in bed with me that’ll murder me. Then I just can’t be president. Then that’s exactly what he [Robert Kennedy] wants. Because then with his having enough support to be Vice President and I got out, he’d have it more than anybody else has. … But I don’t think my self-respect could suffer a defeat at the convention and then take the presidency. Do you?

 UNQUOTE

 [Michael Beschloss, Taking Charge: The Johnson White House Tapes, 1963-1964 (1997), p. 470]

 

Edited April 29 by Robert Morrow

[Roger Odisio]

55 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Oh I don't know, Roger. Maybe whatever it was that got the whole police force out to arrest Oswald... which they did at Texas Theater.

I didn't say it was valid evidence.

RO:  Saying there is evidence implies it is valid   There is no such thing as invalid evidence.  If it's invalid it isn't evidence.

 

Say what?

LBJ was hoping for a death bed confession from Oswald. Why would he have hoped for that if he knew Oswald was innocent?

RO:  I am amazed at how many people take things that Johnson said, or was supposed to have said, at face value.  If he said that, it was diversionary play acting for effect because he knew he was not going to get a confession from Oswald.

Of course LBJ and Hoover thought Oswald was guilty.

RO:  Now that is real nonsense.  How could you even say "of course" to me after reading my thread showing why Johnson was an essential participant in the murder plan.  You did read that thread didn't you?   Perhaps you should respond to those points if you disagree rather than these unsupported claims you are making.

 

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 4/25/2024 at 1:49 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Here you go Sandy. Direct link to CIA IG Report.  Which, IIRC, Fetter has no footnotes to.  Kind of mind boggling.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9983

 

Thanks Jim!

 

[Sandy Larsen]

44 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Saying there is evidence implies it is valid   There is no such thing as invalid evidence.  If it's invalid it isn't evidence.

 

Call it what you want Roger. But most people call the evidence that the WC created against Oswald phrases like "faked evidence, "forged evidence," etc.

 

44 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

RO:  Now that is real nonsense.  How could you even say "of course" to me after reading my thread showing why Johnson was an essential participant in the murder plan. 

 

Because I disagree with you. I don't believe Johnson was an essential participant.

 

44 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

You did read that thread didn't you? 

 

Yes, I read it. And I criticized it and showed you how it falls apart under scrutiny.

 

44 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Perhaps you should respond to those points if you disagree rather than these unsupported claims you are making.

 

What unsupported claims?

Almost everything I've said are either known facts, or are theories believed by a lot of people, including Jim D.

 

[James DiEugenio]

The Warren Commission was not Johnson's invention, that is not accurate.

Johnson did not want a blue ribbon commission. 

He had to be convinced to do it by, first Eugene Rostow, and then Alsop.  And Alsop then told him that the Washington Post was going to come out with that idea also. LBJ did not want it and Alsop's conversation with him was a masterful piece of flattery, persuasion, and massaging to get him to construct it.

I mean, everyone knows what happened after. It was a mess.  But what did anyone expect with Hoover running the inquiry?  Hoover actually was on record as closing the case before Katzenbach was. In fact, I now think that his memo the night before might have been the model for Katzenbach's.  About 80 per cent of the inquiry  was done by Hoover. In second was the Secret Service, and as we all know--Elmer Moore for one--they were about as bad as the FBI was. Does anyone even want to talk about the CIA, and that stunt they pulled in Mexico CIty?  Which even Hoover saw through after about six weeks.

So with those three bodies doing the inquiry, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion.  But then you had the MSM basically encouraging it and accepting it and then giving it a rocket boost when it came out. It is really bizarre to me how the MSM did not scream, or even object, to the WC having closed hearings.  Not one peep.  And the only witness who complained was Mark Lane.  I mean closed hearings on the public execution of the president?

As per Dulles, remember, Talbot in his biography of the man, revealed that he was the one commissioner who lobbied for the job.  Therefore, it might not have been solely LBJ's decision on that one.  But he clearly understand after that this was a mistake, and I think he tried to cover it up.

Edited April 26 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

If you have not read Gibson's milestone article, you really should.

When he first submitted it to me, I was really surprised.  Johnson, the master manipulator, was being royally rolled into doing something he did not want to do.

If you have not read it, here it is:

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-creation-of-the-warren-commission

 

And here is a story on Hoover's memo the night before Katzenbach's.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/jfk-assassination-files/jfk-files-j-edgar-hoover-said-public-must-believe-lee-n814881

Edited April 27 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, why would it be unusual for someone to read the IG report and come to the conclusion the CIA was in on the murder of Kennedy?

I think many people who read it come to that conclusion because now a mechanism for assassination is revealed . A confederacy between the CIA, Mob and Cuban exiles. And we know, as Jim Douglass outlined so well, that after the Missile Crisis, the Cuban exiles were quite angry at the no invasion pledge Kennedy made.  Plus Mongoose was disbanded and Kennedy had cut back significantly on raids into Cuba. In the entire second half of 1963 there had been only five.

So what would it have taken to switch the target from Castro to JFK? And Oswald was perfect to provoke an invasion of Cuba.

I am not saying that is what happened. What I am saying is that after reading the report, I can see how many could come to that conclusion.

[James DiEugenio]

And yes Joe B, that is correct I think.

One of the objectives was to try and get an invasion of Cuba.

I mean the DRE sure as heck was trying for that within 24 hours, were they not?

Edited April 27 by James DiEugenio

[Robert Morrow]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The Warren Commission was not Johnson's invention, that is not accurate.

Johnson did not want a blue ribbon commission. 

He had to be convinced to do it by, first Eugene Rostow, and then Alsop.  And Alsop then told him that the Washington Post was going to come out with that idea also. LBJ did not want it and Alsop's conversation with him was a masterful piece of flattery, persuasion, and massaging to get him to construct it.

I mean, everyone knows what happened after. It was a mess.  But what did anyone expect with Hoover running the inquiry?  Hoover actually was on record as closing the case before Katzenbach was. In fact, I now think that his memo the night before might have been the model for Katzenbach's.  About 80 per cent of the inquiry  was done by Hoover. In second was the Secret Service, and as we all know--Elmer Moore for one--they were about as bad as the FBI was. Does anyone even want to talk about the CIA, and that stunt they pulled in Mexico CIty?  Which even Hoover saw through after about six weeks.

So with those three bodies doing the inquiry, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion.  But then you had the MSM basically encouraging it and accepting it and then giving it a rocket boost when it came out. It is really bizarre to me how the MSM did not scream, or even object, to the WC having closed hearings.  Not one peep.  And the only witness who complained was Mark Lane.  I mean closed hearings on the public execution of the president?

As per Dulles, remember, Talbot in his biography of the man, revealed that he was the one commissioner who lobbied for the job.  Therefore, it might not have been solely LBJ's decision on that one.  But he clearly understand after that this was a mistake, and I think he tried to cover it up.

Lyndon Johnson did not want any national commission to so-called "investigate" the JFK assassination. He wanted to rig the investigation with a Texas Courty of Inquiry rigged by Texas Attorney General Waggoner Carr and Leon Jaworski and Robert Storey the head of SMU Law School.

But when LBJ found out that it was politically unacceptable to do the rigging in Texas, he went along and rigged his Presidential Commission on the Assassination of JFK with his best friends Russell, Boggs, McCloy and other right wingers like Gerald Ford who would go along with the cover up.

LBJ specifically picked Gerald Ford because of his CIA ties which you can heard on YouTube in the LBJ-Ford phone call.

LBJ's only screw up was picking Sen. John Sherman Cooper, a liberal Republican senator from Kentucky who was close friends with JFK.

Sen. Cooper believed in real time while he was on the Warren Commission that Lyndon Johnson had orchestrated the JFK assassination and was using the Warren Commission to cover up that heinous crime. The source for that is former RFK aide and former Sen. Cooper aide Morris Wolff who is alive in 2024 and who wrote that in his memoir.

 

 

[Robert Morrow]

Just now, James DiEugenio said:

And yes Joe B, that is correct I think.

One of the objectives was to try and get an invasion of Cuba.

I mean the DRE should as heck was trying for that within 24 hours, were they not?

The #1 goal of the JFK assassination was to immediately stop the Kennedys' "destroy LBJ program" which was in high gear in November, 1963. Every other reason for the JFK assassination was secondary to that.

LBJ top aide Horace Busby implies strongly that Lyndon Johnson was acutely aware  by Nov. 4, 1963 that the Kennedys had sent a SWAT team of over **FORTY** national reporters to Texas to utterly destroy him  https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2020/07/lyndon-johnson-was-acutely-aware-by-nov.html  I wonder how LBJ would have reacted?

[Robert Morrow]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Joe,

The Generals and CIA were the perpetrators of the assassination. They designed it to looked like Cuba and Russia were behind it.

The General didn't report that the Cubans/Russian were behind the assassination because they are not an investigative body.

J. Edgar Hoover did indeed discover the evidence that the Cubans/Russians were behind the assassination. The faked evidence, that is. But he didn't know it was faked. At least not until much later.

 

Oh, I think Hoover figured out very quickly that the JFK assassination was a high level domestic coup d'etat. Otherwise he would not have gone gambling at the horse track on Saturday, Nov. 23, 1963. Remember Hoover was LBJ's neighbor from 1943 to 1961 and longtime blood brother. I think Hoover figured out a long time before summer of 1964 what had just happened and that LBJ was right in the mix of the JFK assassination.

Hoover speaking to Billy Byars, Jr. at the Del Charro Hotel in the summer of 1964 from Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover by Anthony Summers: “If I told you what I really know, it would be very dangerous to this country. Our whole political system could be disrupted.”

Anthony Summers:

"I was there for one or two weeks," Byars recalled in 1988. "They would eat together, my father, Murchison, and Hoover, and the others. Hoover seemed to be in a very strange frame of mind. He was having a better relationship with Johnson, evidently, than he had with President Kennedy - by a long shot. His relationship with Bobby Kennedy had apparently almost driven him over the edge. He used to talk about that constantly, and once I had the chance to ask him directly about the assassination. I asked him, 'Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald did it?" And he stopped and he looked at me for quite a long time. Then he said, 'If I told you what I really know, it would be very dangerous to this country. Our whole political system could be disrupted.' That's all he said, and I could see he wasn't about to say any more. [The Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover, Anthony Summers]

Billy Byars, Jr. was born in 1936. In 1964 when he spoke with Hoover he would have been about age 28

https://www.boywiki.org/en/Billy_Byars,_Jr.

QUOTE

Summers shows through numerous details how very well the Byars, father and son, knew Hoover. The afternoon of President Kennedy's death, J. Edgar Hoover phoned three people: the Attorney General, the head of the Secret Service, and Billy Byars, Sr. [Summers, supra, p. 329]

One statement by Billy Byars, Jr., is frequently repeated by conspiracy theorists. Byars related to Summers a conversation at the Del Charro during the summer of 1964 or 1965.

"I asked him, 'Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald did it?' And he stopped and looked at me for quite a long time. Then he said, "If I told you what I really know, it would be very dangerous to this country. Our whole political system could be disrupted.' That's all he said, and I could see he wasn't going to say any more." [Summers, supra, p. 330].

Usually when this quote is cited online Byars, Jr. is described as "teenage", but he would have been in his late twenties.

UNQUOTE

 

 

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

If you have not read Gibson's milestone article, you really should.

When he first submitted it to me, I was really surprised.  Johnson, the master manipulator, was being royally rolled into doing something he did not want to do.

If you have not read it, here it is:

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-creation-of-the-warren-commission

 

And here is a story on Hoover's memo the night before Katzenbach's.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/jfk-assassination-files/jfk-files-j-edgar-hoover-said-public-must-believe-lee-n814881

Great article by Donald Gibson.  Hard to believe it's nearly 30 years old.  I've got Battling Wall Street and The Kennedy Assassination Cover-Up.  All I've read by him is good.  Not to digress but I've wondered for years about the selection and role of John J. McCloy.  The "Chairman" of the East Coast Establishment.  He (also?) said they were there to "settle the dust" if I remember right.