Involvement of the Secret Service

[Kevin Balch]

23 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Not according to Survivors Guilt.  

"While leaving Love Field on the way to the heart of Dallas, Agent Roberts rose from his seat and using his voice and several hand gestures, forced agent Donald J Lawton, and more than likely, the agent he immediately relieved, Henry Rybka, to fall back from the rear area of JFK's limousine, causing a perplexed Lawton to stop and raise his arms several times in disgust."  Pages 233-234.

It's interesting to note I think in Vinces' Roster and Duties list you linked that Lawton, O'Leary and Rybka at Love Field are at the end.  probably nothing.  But Lawton and Rybka did normally participate in JFK's personal protection.

Not sure why I thought it was Rybka waving his arms in disgust.  But he was there if Lawton was relieving him (?), in the parade initially.  I had forgotten Roberts standing up and apparently yelling and pointing at them then motioning and or yelling more for them to get back.  Away from the President's limousine.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a different version of the video below, taken from a little further away but much clearer of Lawton, or maybe called Rybka in it (?).  In this one you can see Roberts standing up for a split second near the end.  It's interesting to hear Clint Hill say Lawton or Rybka was saying to them as they passed by, Guess I'm going to lunch guys, have a good trip!

User Clip: SECRET SERVICE CONFUSION AT LOVE FIELD EXPLAINED | C-SPAN.org

The narrator of that clip certainly suggests something sinister. I myself used to believe it. I have a hard time believing a Secret Service driver would knowingly drive a car into an ambush or that if he didn’t know about it and was set up by others in the Secret Service, it could not have been kept quiet.

[Vince Palamara]

23 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

However, Greer did slow the limo down almost to a stop, or even an actual stop, and turn to face JFK until the fatal shot had been fired....

True!

[Kevin Balch]

14 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

True!

Was this deliberate or incompetence?

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

Was this deliberate or incompetence?

That's a good question.  He was descended of the Orange in Ireland, a conservative who would not have liked JFK or his policies.  Then again, he was in his 60's I think, maybe slowed reactions.  I wonder if he wasn't told to slow down at a certain point.

[Kevin Balch]

51 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

That's a good question.  He was descended of the Orange in Ireland, a conservative who would not have liked JFK or his policies.  Then again, he was in his 60's I think, maybe slowed reactions.  I wonder if he wasn't told to slow down at a certain point.

Pretty daring to willingly drive a car into an ambush, wouldn’t you say?

[Bill Fite]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

That's a good question.  He was descended of the Orange in Ireland, a conservative who would not have liked JFK or his policies.  Then again, he was in his 60's I think, maybe slowed reactions.  I wonder if he wasn't told to slow down at a certain point.

I had some training in handling emergency situations.

We were told that in a plane crash landing people panic 3 ways:

1) Positive panic - take an action leading to a positive result - helping others out, for example.  

2) Negative panic - take an action contributing to a negative result - rushing the exit, for example.

3) Freeze

So, barring Greer being in on it - he may have panicked by either freezing or hitting the brakes (negative panic).

On the other hand - if he was in on it - he may have been told to slow down or stop on either a hand signal by the dark complected man / umbrella signal or by the yellow painted curb and lied to being told that the assassin would emerge from the crowd at that point.

Some of the possibilities anyway.

 

[Kevin Balch]

7 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

I had some training in handling emergency situations.

We were told that in a plane crash landing people panic 3 ways:

1) Positive panic - take an action leading to a positive result - helping others out, for example.  

2) Negative panic - take an action contributing to a negative result - rushing the exit, for example.

3) Freeze

So, barring Greer being in on it - he may have panicked by either freezing or hitting the brakes (negative panic).

On the other hand - if he was in on it - he may have been told to slow down or stop on either a hand signal by the dark complected man / umbrella signal or by the yellow painted curb and lied to being told that the assassin would emerge from the crowd at that point.

Some of the possibilities anyway.

 

The problem with your “in on it” scenario is that at least one shot was already fired circa Z-200 and perhaps another one even earlier before the supposed limo stop.

From basic physics considerations, I don’t see how the limo could have come to anywhere near a complete stop without having to remove/alter at least 4 seconds of frames of the Zapruder and Nix films and any alterations would require capabilities that even alterationists admit did not exist in 1963, especially in the limited time allowed in the Douglas Horne timeline.

Further, there would be other indelible physical evidence resulting from a complete limo stop.

A sudden limo stop would have actually worked against any sniper tracking the limo, especially from the side.

[Greg Doudna]

On Greer and the slowing or stopping of the limousine, the problem I have with the "in on it" idea is the simple risk to any plot to brief and enlist a Secret Service driver in advance, of a whistle-blower or a leak. And, if Greer the driver had been "in on it", how is it he lived decades after that as a free man with no noticeable fear for his life, and also no leak or coming clean, no deathbed confession, whatever (and no one taking steps to ensure that didn't happen). It doesn't make sense.

Also, its a great stretch to me to imagine a Secret Service agent, whose job it is to protect the president no matter whether one agrees or disagrees with that president's politics, being party to a knowing assassination of that president. 

What makes sense is he was older, had slow reflexes, and (apparently) had inadequate training in evasive driving. Another possible factor--did he realize Clint Hill was trying to get on the limousine and delay a second or two on the rapid takeoff until Hill was safely on the vehicle and Jackie safely back in the back seat? A rapid takeoff before Jackie was back in place could have had her going off the back end of the limousine on to Elm Street?

Here is a reframing of the question though. Greer was obviously not the best choice for a driver in the interests of JFK if there was a shooting or emergency event. What entered into Greer being that driver that day, instead of some other driver with quick professional reflexes to respond correctly and evasively? 

It could be a simple unplanned screwup. If, however, it was not totally a random screwup, my question would go to who put Greer as the driver that day. Not on whether Greer was witting to intentionally slowing the limousine so he could help the president be killed.

[Bill Fite]

3 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

The problem with your “in on it” scenario is that at least one shot was already fired circa Z-200 and perhaps another one even earlier before the supposed limo stop.

From basic physics considerations, I don’t see how the limo could have come to anywhere near a complete stop without having to remove/alter at least 4 seconds of frames of the Zapruder and Nix films and any alterations would require capabilities that even alterationists admit did not exist in 1963, especially in the limited time allowed in the Douglas Horne timeline.

Further, there would be other indelible physical evidence resulting from a complete limo stop.

A sudden limo stop would have actually worked against any sniper tracking the limo, especially from the side.

Agreed - I think the most likely scenario is that he panicked and froze not knowing where the shots were coming from - front / back /side(s) and then reacted only when Kellerman told him to get out of there.

[Steve Thomas]

I once wrote an essay on reports of Secret Service men in and around Dealey Plaza on November 22nd.

You can find a copy here, if you are interested:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/12084-secret-service-on-the-knoll-and-beyond/

Steve Thomas

[Michael Crane]

Kellerman said that there was a flurry of shots that came into the limo.

I believe that Greer panicked & hit the brakes right when the shot hit the windshield.

He might have believed that he was heading straight into hostile gunfire.

Edited May 16 by Michael Crane

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

Kellerman said that there was a flurry of shots that came into the limo.

I believe that Greer panicked & hit the brakes right when the shot hit the windshield.

He might have believed that he was heading straight into hostile gunfire.

I pretty much agree. 

Greer took his foot off the gas as he turned back to look at Kennedy. I don't remember the interview but I believe he said he was concerned when he turned onto Elm and saw the railroad men on the overpass. Then he heard a sound and a commotion in the limo and realized the sound he'd heard could have been a shot. So he hesitated for a second because he was afraid he was driving towards the sniper. By the time he realized the shots were coming from behind (or from the side)however it was too late. 

 

[Vince Palamara]

 

[Vince Palamara]

20 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

That's a good question.  He was descended of the Orange in Ireland, a conservative who would not have liked JFK or his policies.  Then again, he was in his 60's I think, maybe slowed reactions.  I wonder if he wasn't told to slow down at a certain point.

The agent who would have driven Kennedy in Dallas if not for 10/14/63 intervening: 

 

[Vince Palamara]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I once wrote an essay on reports of Secret Service men in and around Dealey Plaza on November 22nd.

You can find a copy here, if you are interested:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/12084-secret-service-on-the-knoll-and-beyond/

Steve Thomas

See also: