The Kennedy Tapes

[James DiEugenio]

Joe has a point there about Nikita..

Just recall, a year later Kennedy was taken out, shortly followed by Nikita.

 

 

[Gene Kelly]

It was truly a "profile in courage" ... 

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, there is an important piece of information that did not come out until much later.

See, when the blockade worked and the Russian ships stopped, our side thought this was the turning point, with the whole Rusk quote "The other side blinked."

Not true.

McNamara attended a conference later in Havana.  The Russian general in charge said that at the time the blockade was constructed and went into effect, all the land missiles were already in place, waiting to be loaded.

McNamara couldn't believe it. He was stunned that they did not know that at the time.

And there is a debate about whether or not the White House knew about the tactical nukes.

But with all the land missiles in place, the Soviets had a first strike ready.

Edited Tuesday at 11:24 PM by James DiEugenio

[Matt Cloud]

Ernest May & Phil Zelikow do not want the JFKA records out.  Let that sink in.  Much will be revealed that will change all understanding of the Cuban Missile Crisis.  

[Ron Bulman]

10 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

It was truly a "profile in courage" ... 

Hi Gene.  Good to see you post again.  For some reason you made me think of Eric Clapton.

 

[Matthew Koch]

12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, there is an important piece of information that did not come out until much later.

See, when the blockade worked and the Russian ships stopped, our side thought this was the turning point, with the whole Rusk quote "The other side blinked."

Not true.

McNamara attended a conference later in Havana.  The Russian general in charge said that at the time the blockade was constructed and went into effect, all the land missiles were already in place, waiting to be loaded.

McNamara couldn't believe it. He was stunned that they did not know that at the time.

And there is a debate about whether or not the White House knew about the tactical nukes.

But with all the land missiles in place, the Soviets had a first strike ready.

In Rodger Hilsman's 'To Move A Nation' (1964) on P.215

"..the President authorized the Navy to fly low-level reconnaissance missions, buzzing the missile sites themselves. The pictures the Navy brought back showed that work on the missile sites continued at full speed. It was these pictures that also revealed for the first time the presence of Soviet ground forces armed with tactical nuclear weapons."

[Joe Bauer]

17 hours ago, Johnny Cairns said:

Few men are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change the world which yields most painfully to change. Robert Francis Kennedy. 

Great words by RFK.

[Robert Morrow]

On 6/24/2024 at 2:02 PM, Johnny Cairns said:

I agree Jim. 

When JFK asks LBJ what his thoughts were at the first meeting Johnson states,

”I think that we’re committed at any time that we feel that there’s a buildup that in any way endangers, to take whatever action we must take to assure our security… I think the question with the base is whether we take it out or whether we talk about it, and either alternative is a very distressing one. But, of the two, I would take it out.” 
 

Thank god Kennedy was President. 

Well, what about when Lyndon Johnson became president? WE ALMOST HAD NUCLEAR WAR BECAUSE LBJ ORCHESTRATED THE ATTEMPTED SINKING OF THE USS LIBERTY with Israel and American planes came within 5 minutes of dropping nuclear bombs on Cairo until Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara got on the military phone and called off the bombing. (Why? I have no idea.)

Moe Shafer, a USS Liberty survivor was told this by Admiral Martin who was the head of the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterean. Moe Shafer is alive, I know him well, and he has repeated this many times over the years: HPSCAN_0323221054.pdf_extract_3.pdf (usslibertyveterans.org)

Then there was LBJ's approval of OPERATION FRACTURE JAW on Feb. 10, 1968 - a plan to use tactical nukes in Vietnam and a plan that LBJ only canceled because the prime ministers of Canada and Great Britain appeared on national TV opposing the use of nuclear weapons in Vietnam.

After the Tet Offensive and in response to Khe Sanh being in danger, Lyndon Johnson on Feb. 1, 1968 was on the verge of using NUCLEAR WEAPONS in Vietnam and only stopped after the Prime Ministers of Canada and the United Kingdom denounced the idea on CBS’s Face the Nation on Feb. 11, 1968. LBJ had approved “Operation Fracture Jaw” on the day before Feb. 10, 1968 and he finally canceled the order to use nukes on Monday, Feb. 12, 1968

 https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2018/10/24/that-sensational-new-york-times-story-about-lbj-saving-america-from-nuclear-war-in-vietnam-is-wrong/

Edited Thursday at 02:47 PM by Robert Morrow

[Robert Morrow]

On 6/25/2024 at 7:14 PM, Matt Cloud said:

Ernest May & Phil Zelikow do not want the JFKA records out.  Let that sink in.  Much will be revealed that will change all understanding of the Cuban Missile Crisis.  

Philip Zelikow in 2002 wrote a favorable review of Max Holland's thesis that it was KGB disinformation that the CIA was involved in the JFK assassination - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2002-03-01/lie-linked-cia-kennedy-assassination

What is your source for Philip Zelikow not want the JFK records documents to be released?

[Robert Morrow]

On 6/24/2024 at 3:41 PM, Johnny Cairns said:

It would have been a disaster. Greg is right, it was Christ like the stance the President took in October 1962. Have you ever heard this? Robert Kennedy was interviewed weeks before his death in 1968 by David Frost. He talks about his greatest achievement, his contribution during the Cuban Missile Crisis. 
https://historical-records.com/records/david-frost-talks-to-bobby-kennedy/
 

JFK saved the World not Robert Kennedy who in the late 1960s was trying to make political hay out of his mis-remembering the events of the Cuban Missile Crisis and his own suggestions.

At the peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Lyndon Johnson wanted to invade or bomb Cuba – which would have caused WWIII

 Web link: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/05/robert-caros-new-history-of-lbj-offers-a-mistaken-account-of-the-cuban-missile-crisis.html

 QUOTE

 From start to finish, and on several occasions, RFK can be heard on the tapes, and read in the transcripts, arguing not only for an air attack but for an air strike followed by an invasion of the entire island of Cuba. Sheldon Stern, the library’s former chief historian, who has studied the tapes and transcripts more thoroughly than anyone, writes in his forthcoming book The Cuban Missile Crisis in American Memory: Myth versus Reality: “RFK was one of the most consistently hawkish and confrontational members of the ExComm.”

 The same can be said of Lyndon Johnson, who, the few times he did speak up at the ExComm meetings, was (as Caro accurately quotes him) brutally bellicose, calling the president’s patience—his failure to meet Khrushchev’s forceful gestures with immediate force—a sign of “weakness” and “backing down.”

But, except in tone, Johnson was no more hawkish than Bobby Kennedy—and, especially on the last day of the crisis, no more hawkish than nearly all the advisers at the table.

When President Kennedy says he’s disposed to take Khrushchev’s missile trade, McGeorge Bundy, the national security adviser, protests (you can hear his voice on the tape, quivering), “I think we should tell you … the universal assessment of everyone in the government who’s connected with alliance problems: If we appear to be trading the defense of Turkey for the threat in Cuba, we will face a radical decline.”

UNQUOTE

 [“What Robert Caro Got Wrong,” Fred Kaplan, Slate, May 31, 2012] 

Another Fred Kaplan article on the Cuban Missile Crisis for Slate:

 https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/10/cuban-missile-crisis-50th-anniversary-what-this-cold-war-crisis-should-teach-us-about-foreign-policy-today.html

 [“What the Cuban Missile Crisis Should Teach Us,” Fred Kaplan, Slate, Oct. 12, 2012]

[Robert Morrow]

CHUCK HELPPIE – Notes from October 27, 2012 conference – the 50^th anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis

 Internet Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20130923155606/http://www.kennedymustbekilled.com/sergei-khrushchev_329.html

Dr. Sergei Khrushchev and Chuck Helppie

George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia

50^th Anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis Conference

October 27, 2012

First panel discussion, 10:00 am – 11:30 am:

(These are my abridged notes of the panel discussion with the highlights)

 Dr. Martin Sherwin began the conference by introducing the participants in the first panel. They were:

• Colonel Buddy Brown – US Air Force pilot who flew U-2’s from 1957-1964, and who worked at Lockheed after retiring in 1984. He was involved with developing top secret projects for Lockheed.
• Dr. Sergei Khrushchev – Premier Nikita Khrushchev’s son. Holds a Ph.D. in engineering, and has authored 310 books and articles on missile guidance systems and space design.
• Dino Brugioni – Photo-interpreter for the CIA. Founder of the National Photographic Interpretation Center and an author of six books and ninety articles.
• Lt. Commander Tad Riley – retired Naval officer who flew an F8U ‘Crusader’ over Cuba at 200 feet at 400 miles per hour to photograph the missile sites. 

 The first panel discussion began with the moderator, Dr. Martin Sherwin, making an introductory statement:

“Fifty years ago today was “Black Saturday” – October 27, 1962 – the exact height of the Cuban Missile Crisis…The tension between the USA and the USSR started with Hiroshima at the end of World War II. That was the start of the USSR’s determination to get nuclear weapons themselves…As a result, the Cuban Missile Crisis became a world crisis as it unfolded.”

Dr. Sherwin then kicked off the conference by asking this question of Dr. Khrushchev:

“Why did Khrushchev put missiles in Cuba?”

Khrushchev: “It was the obligation of a superpower to help Cuba when Castro declared he was now a member of the Soviet bloc. With that statement, Cuba became to the USSR what West Berlin was to the USA. It was, otherwise, a worthless piece of land to us.”

“How were the missiles found?”

Brugioni: “On October 16, I prepared the briefing boards to show to the president. The U-2’s carried 6,000 feet of film in one long roll. It would reach from the White House to the Capitol Building – imagine being on your hands and knees with a magnifying glass and looking at that!...I had a ‘parade book’ of Moscow photos of their military parades with pictures of their missiles on display. I was searching for their SS-3 and SS-4 missiles, and when I found them I reported to Lundahl.”

“Did the administration believe you?”

Brugioni: “We had problems with Bobby Kennedy. He was, for all purposes, acting as the president. When we showed him the photos of the missile sites, Bobby asked, ‘How can you be so sure? It looks like someone’s just digging a basement.’ I told him we saw those same patterns of construction around their missile sites. My map also showed DC was within reach of those missiles. Bobby looked at that and then asked, ‘Could those goddamned things hit Oxford, Mississippi?’ I told him they could and the next day I put Oxford Mississippi on the map of the areas those missiles could reach!”

Riley: “We practiced supersonic low-level flights over South Carolina. We scared the hell out of a lot of chicken farmers! My job was to fly over Cuba at low level and look for construction sites marked on my maps of Cuba.”

Brown: “There was a hurricane coming in and I didn’t think the U-2’s would fly that day (October 16) because the long wings of the U-2 could be easily ripped off under the wrong circumstances. I was finally cleared to take off in the brunt of the storm and it wasn’t until I climbed above 50,000 feet that I finally emerged above the storm clouds. I continued my climb to 70,000 feet and headed for Cuba. I flew parallel lines above Cuba at 70,000 feet for three hours sucking up pictures. I then flew back to McCoy Air Force Base in Florida while the other U-2’s flew out of Laughlin Air Force Base in Texas. I had barely landed when the guys removed the film from my cameras and sent it straight to NPIC (the National Photographic Interpretation Center in Arlington, Virginia.”

Brugioni: “The military knew we had a missile superiority of 10-1 to as much as 15-1 over the Soviets. Our Pentagon wanted a confrontation with the USSR as soon as possible because of that superiority. General Curtis LeMay wanted us to bomb AND invade Cuba. It’s a good thing we didn’t because we had no idea Cuba had 100 tactical nuclear weapons. The USA had an advantage in strategic nuclear weapons, but not in those tactical nukes.”

(In basic terms, a strategic missile was a long-range ballistic missile with a range of a thousand miles or more. A tactical missile was a short-range missile with a range of 150 miles or less.)

Khrushchev: “Your advantage was probably 20-1 in strategic nuclear missiles. The USSR had 24 ballistic missiles with 3-megaton warheads. LeMay figured the USSR could kill 50 million Americans and the USA would kill 100% of all Russians.”

“How much agreement was there in the different governments about possible solutions?”

Khrushchev: “JFK had to deal with the election process since mid-term elections were coming up in a few weeks. The election process in America required public discussions of the options. The USSR didn’t have any of that. It was discussed at the highest levels without regard to public opinion. It was easier for Khrushchev because there weren’t so many discussions of opinions.”

Brugioni: “Everyone was against JFK’s position – the governors, the Congress, the military – they were all unbelievably angry at JFK for not going to war. JFK was alone in his position. My boss, Lundahl, was shocked at the verbal beating JFK was taking at those meetings.”

Sherwin: “Here’s a little-known fact: The nuclear storage areas had to be kept cool at all times because of the sensitive nature of the weapons. No one in the USSR had thought of how hot and humid Cuba always was. The only air-conditioning in Cuba was in the brothels. Castro had all the air conditioners removed from the brothels and taken to the storage sites to cool the weapons.”

Riley: “My first flight over Cuba was October 23 and I flew again every other day for a total of six missions: the 23^rd, the 25^th, the 27^th, the 29^th, the 31^st, and November 2, 1962. I followed another plane (my navigator plane) about a half-mile back of his course, taking pictures. I was low enough to see the whites of their eyes as I zoomed overhead.”

Brown: “We (the U-2’s) were on a ‘stand-down’ after Andy was shot down. (‘Andy’ was Major Rudolph Anderson who was shot down by a Cuban air defense gunner who acted without orders from any higher command.”

Khrushchev: “There were three Foxtrot submarines, not four. The fourth sub became damaged en-route from Russia and had to return. (That’s why the fourth sub was never successfully tracked by the U.S. Navy.) Each sub carried a 15 megaton nuclear torpedo.”

Sherwin: “The sub B-59 was seconds away from firing a 15-megaton torpedo at our aircraft carrier group which had been tracking, shadowing, and harassing the sub for three days, trying to force it to the surface. Running out of air, it finally did come to the surface but was almost convinced it had to fire on our fleet to avoid humiliation back home. Fortunately, the submarine commander of the entire Russian fleet was on that sub and ordered the boat’s captain to stand down and not attack. It took a few tense moments for that captain to decide to follow orders.”

Brown: “Another one of our U-2 pilots flying out of Alaska collecting air samples and looking for signs of Soviet nuclear testing accidentally got lost and flew deep over the Soviet Union while he was disoriented by the Aurora Borealis. This happened at the same time Major Anderson was shot down over Cuba. The Soviets thought that U-2 was a precursor to a US attack to avenge the loss of the other U-2 over Cuba and they scrambled fighters to shoot it down. Luckily the pilot (Chuck Mosby) realized his error when he picked up Russian music on his radio, and he swiftly headed back to Alaska. No one had the guts to tell JFK what had happened until the U-2 was back over Alaskan airspace.”

The first panel ended at 11:30 am and I asked Dino Brugioni if it was true the NPIC was secretly hidden above a car dealership in Arlington, Virginia. He laughed and said: “Yes, NPIC was on the top four floors of the Stuart Motor Company in Arlington, Virginia – right in the heart of the ghetto. We couldn’t go out to eat because the neighborhood was so bad!”

Edited Thursday at 05:36 AM by Robert Morrow

[Johnny Cairns]

2 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

JFK saved the World not Robert Kennedy who in the late 1960s was trying to make political hay out of his mis-remembering the events of the Cuban Missile Crisis and his own suggestions.

At the peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Lyndon Johnson wanted to invade or bomb Cuba – which would have caused WWIII

 Web link: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/05/robert-caros-new-history-of-lbj-offers-a-mistaken-account-of-the-cuban-missile-crisis.html

 QUOTE

 From start to finish, and on several occasions, RFK can be heard on the tapes, and read in the transcripts, arguing not only for an air attack but for an air strike followed by an invasion of the entire island of Cuba. Sheldon Stern, the library’s former chief historian, who has studied the tapes and transcripts more thoroughly than anyone, writes in his forthcoming book The Cuban Missile Crisis in American Memory: Myth versus Reality: “RFK was one of the most consistently hawkish and confrontational members of the ExComm.”

 The same can be said of Lyndon Johnson, who, the few times he did speak up at the ExComm meetings, was (as Caro accurately quotes him) brutally bellicose, calling the president’s patience—his failure to meet Khrushchev’s forceful gestures with immediate force—a sign of “weakness” and “backing down.”

But, except in tone, Johnson was no more hawkish than Bobby Kennedy—and, especially on the last day of the crisis, no more hawkish than nearly all the advisers at the table.

When President Kennedy says he’s disposed to take Khrushchev’s missile trade, McGeorge Bundy, the national security adviser, protests (you can hear his voice on the tape, quivering), “I think we should tell you … the universal assessment of everyone in the government who’s connected with alliance problems: If we appear to be trading the defense of Turkey for the threat in Cuba, we will face a radical decline.”

UNQUOTE

 [“What Robert Caro Got Wrong,” Fred Kaplan, Slate, May 31, 2012] 

Another Fred Kaplan article on the Cuban Missile Crisis for Slate:

 https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/10/cuban-missile-crisis-50th-anniversary-what-this-cold-war-crisis-should-teach-us-about-foreign-policy-today.html

 [“What the Cuban Missile Crisis Should Teach Us,” Fred Kaplan, Slate, Oct. 12, 2012]

Yes it was President Kennedy whose courage saved the world in 1962, but others like Robert Kennedy played a vital role and helped Jack to this decision. For example, in the October 18 meeting in the cabinet room, when the pressure of a preemptive strike was ramping up, Robert Kennedy told his brother, “I think it’s the whole question of, you know, assuming that you do survive all this, what kind of country we are… we did this against Cuba. We’ve fought for 15 years with Russia to prevent a first strike against us. Now, in the interest of time, we do that to a small country. I think it’s a hell of a burden to carry.”

Robert Kennedy also, played a pivotal role in back-channel negotiations with the Soviet Union. On October 27, 1962, he met secretly with Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin to convey a crucial message. In this meeting, Robert Kennedy offered a deal where the U.S. would publicly agree not to invade Cuba and secretly agree to remove U.S. missiles from Turkey in exchange for the Soviet withdrawal of missiles from Cuba.

Have you read these transcripts, in their entirety, for yourself? 

Edited Thursday at 07:38 AM by Johnny Cairns

[Robert Morrow]

7 hours ago, Johnny Cairns said:

Yes it was President Kennedy whose courage saved the world in 1962, but others like Robert Kennedy played a vital role and helped Jack to this decision. For example, in the October 18 meeting in the cabinet room, when the pressure of a preemptive strike was ramping up, Robert Kennedy told his brother, “I think it’s the whole question of, you know, assuming that you do survive all this, what kind of country we are… we did this against Cuba. We’ve fought for 15 years with Russia to prevent a first strike against us. Now, in the interest of time, we do that to a small country. I think it’s a hell of a burden to carry.”

Robert Kennedy also, played a pivotal role in back-channel negotiations with the Soviet Union. On October 27, 1962, he met secretly with Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin to convey a crucial message. In this meeting, Robert Kennedy offered a deal where the U.S. would publicly agree not to invade Cuba and secretly agree to remove U.S. missiles from Turkey in exchange for the Soviet withdrawal of missiles from Cuba.

Have you read these transcripts, in their entirety, for yourself? 

No, I have not read the whole transcripts and yes those facts you mention are true and a credit to Robert Kennedy.

Also, at the very peak of the crisis, just as a deal was about to be struck, Lyndon Johnson was favoring a military response.

Sidenote, I think Jim DiEugenio mentioned one time that JFK, if the deal with Khrushchev did not work out, Kennedy had a Plan B which was to go to the United Nations and have them broker a deal with the Russians. JFK was hellbent on NOT having nuclear war.

JFK told his 19 year old mistress MiMi Beardsley two things: 1) "I'd rather my children red than dead." and 2) Stay away from Lyndon Johnson!

John Kennedy (at the White House) to his college coed mistress MiMi Beardsley (then age 19) on Saturday night, October 27, 1962 at the peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis: “I’d rather my children be red than dead.”

 QUOTE

           When I pulled up to the South Portico at the White House, I went directly upstairs as usual. There Dave and I played the Waiting Game in the residence living room, the one next to the President’s bedroom, while the President remained downstairs with a group of close advisors known as EX COMM, the Executive Committee of the National Security Council. They had convened at the White House to deal specifically with the Cuban crisis. The President joined us after a while, but his mind was clearly elsewhere. His expression was grave. Normally, he would have put his presidential duties behind him, had a drink, and done his best to light up the room and put everyone at ease. But not on this night. Even his quips had a halfhearted, funereal tone. At one point, after leaving the room to take another urgent phone call, he came back shaking his head and said to me, “I’d rather my children be red than dead.” It wasn’t a political statemen or an attempt at levity. These were the words of a father who adored his children and couldn’t bear them being hurt.

 UNQUOTE

 [MiMi Alford, Once Upon a Secret: My Affair with President John Kennedy and It’s Aftermath, pp. 93-94]

and:

"Teen mistress addresses relationship, pol's Cold War fears in memoir"

 New York Post

 By CYNTHIA R. FAGEN

Last Updated: 12:08 PM, February 5, 2012

Posted: 1:49 AM, February 5, 2012

 http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/inside_my_teen_affair_with_jfk_FGF4aS7OdoQozP4tyySsmK#ixzz1lX1xaVNY

QUOTE

On a trip to Yosemite National Park, she noticed a pattern, which she called “the Waiting Game.” She was told to stay put in her hotel until the president called for her, which meant sitting around for hours. Often, he would only call her at night

 On one excursion, she met Vice President Lyndon Johnson. When she told the president about the introduction, he lost his composure.

 “Stay away from him,” he commanded, likely worried that Johnson could use knowledge of the affair against him.

UNQUOTE

 

Edited Thursday at 02:46 PM by Robert Morrow

[Matt Cloud]

10 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Philip Zelikow in 2002 wrote a favorable review of Max Holland's thesis that it was KGB disinformation that the CIA was involved in the JFK assassination - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2002-03-01/lie-linked-cia-kennedy-assassination

What is your source for Philip Zelikow not want the JFK records documents to be released?

And than Holland wrote Zelikow and May (who passed in 2009) were compromised in their work on the 9-11 Commission.

https://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2007/04/the_politics_an.html

https://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2008/01/commission-conf.html

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/19950601.pdf

Anyhow, consider it inferential deduction.  His entire career is predicated around concealing the reality behind the Cold War.  He ran the Miller Center at UVA.  If you'd get past LBJ for a moment you would be able to see the larger picture.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 03:22 PM by Matt Cloud

[Robert Morrow]

30 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

And than Holland wrote Zelikow and May (who passed in 2009) were compromised in their work on the 9-11 Commission.

https://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2007/04/the_politics_an.html

https://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2008/01/commission-conf.html

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/19950601.pdf

Anyhow, consider it inferential deduction.  His entire career his predicated around concealing the reality behind the Cold War.  He ran the Miller Center at UVA.  If you'd get past LBJ for a moment you would be able to see the larger picture.

 

 

I asked you a simple question: how do you know that Phillip Zelikow does not want the JFK documents released and you failed to provide any proof/documentation for that.

And your answer was you deduced that because Zelikow was a cover up artist for the Bush Administration when it came to 9/11 which happened on George W. Bush's watch. Actually, I think Zelikow is a toad when it comes to the JFK assassination but it sure would be nice for you to back up your statements here.