"The Same Man"

[Bill Brown]

Dale Myers:

 

"One example is found in the Tippit case. Some argue that Helen Markham wasn’t a reliable witness – that she was wrong about the time that Tippit was shot, that her description of the shooter didn’t match Oswald exactly, or that her identification of Oswald at the line-up was made after she had been administered smelling salts.

 

But can one believably and logically dismissed other witnesses who didn’t see the shooting, as Markham did, but identified Oswald as the man they saw fleeing the scene? Especially given the fact that we know for certain that the man that others saw fleeing the scene was the same person that Markham saw shoot Officer Tippit?

 

After all, Markham saw the gunman running toward the corner of Tenth and Patton immediately after the shooting. Cab driver William W. Scoggins saw the same man coming toward him, cross the lawn of the corner house (where Barbara J. and Virginia R. Davis stood watching the same man), jump through the bushes and flee south on Patton. Used car manager Ted Callaway saw the same man as he leapt through the bushes, run past Scoggins, and cross Patton Street. As the gunman passed Callaway, and used car porter Sam Guinyard, four men – Warren Reynolds, B.M. Patterson, L.J. Lewis and Harold Russell – saw the same man trotting toward them. The gunman hesitated briefly at the corner of Patton and Jefferson Boulevard, then turned west toward Crawford. Two of the men – Reynolds and Patterson – followed the same man until he slipped behind two used furniture stores next to a convenience store adjacent to the Texaco service station at Crawford and Jefferson."

 

https://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2023/11/

 

[Greg Doudna]

Yes those are the same man (with the conceivable exception of possibility that Barbara or Virginia Davis might have confused a running witness for the gunman, without pressing that point), yes that was the man that shot Tippit, and yes, it is reasonably conceivable in theory that all the witnesses named could have misidentified the man they saw as Oswald, given the circumstances; the fact that none knew Oswald prior; that none got extremely close looks but saw from varying distances for brief moments; that there is a known incidence of error in eyewitness identifications involved in wrongful convictions of actually innocent persons of the same genre of witnesses as these witnesses; and that there were many other unrelated known examples of eyewitness misidentifications of other persons as Oswald, who were not Oswald.

In theory all that needs to be supposed, if the eyewitness identifications alone were all that were at issue, is a gunman that somewhat resembled Oswald in general size and build and rough facial similarity (true of quite a few young American men). 

And it is known, not conjectured but known, that there were such young men in Dallas, and some were being identified mistakenly by sincere witnesses as Oswald, at the same time and even elsewhere on the same day as these Tippit crime scene witnesses were picking the arrested Oswald out of lineups as the gunman they saw. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

Dale Meyers?  Helen Markam was discredited by members of the Warren Omission Lone Nut Theory you support.

[Gil Jesus]

Let's tell the WHOLE story, shall we ?

https://gil-jesus.com/the-tippit-witnesses/

Edited July 31 by Gil Jesus

[Robert Morrow]

5 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Let's tell the WHOLE story, shall we ?

https://gil-jesus.com/the-tippit-witnesses/

Gil Jesus- question - Was Helen Markham on the way to catch the 1:15PM bus or was it the 1:12PM bus? That is a very big distinction to make. I have always heard it was the 1:12PM. Am I right or wrong on this matter? Does anyone have absolute proof as to whether the waitress Helen Markham was on the way to the 1:12PM or 1:15PM bus.

Thanks in advance to Gil Jesus or anyone else on Education Forum who can provide clarification on this matter.

[Robert Morrow]

10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Dale Meyers?  Helen Markam was discredited by members of the Warren Omission Lone Nut Theory you support.

Helen Markham, in fact, was a very, very good "witness" because she was absolutely cocksure that she saw Officer J.D. Tippit being shot at about 1:06 to 1:07PM. She was so sure about this because she had left the clothes washing machine room at her apartment at 1:04PM and the FBI had timed her walk and it was only a mere 2 to 3 minutes to her witness spot at Tenth and Patten.

Helan Markham was a damn good witness because her timing of the death of J.D. Tippit completely absolves Lee Harvey Oswald who the Warren Commission itself says was at his boarding home as late as 1:03PM and that is 9/10ths of a mile away.

Testimony Of Mrs. Helen Markham (mu.edu)

Mr. BALL. What has been your work most of your life since you were divorced, what kind of work have you done?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Waitress work.
Mr. BALL. You have done waitress work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, Sir.
Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Eat Well Restaurant, 1404 Main Street, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Were you working there on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was.
Mr. BALL. What hours did you work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was due at work from 2:30 in the evening until 10:30 at night.
Mr. BALL. Did you leave your home some time that morning to go to work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That evening?
Mr. BALL. Morning.
Mrs. MARKHAM. That morning?
Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, that day?
Mrs. MARKHAM. At one.
Mr. BALL. One o'clock?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1.
Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to catch the bus?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On Patton and Jefferson.
Mr. BALL. Patton and Jefferson is about a block south of Patton and 10th Street, isn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I think so.
Mr. BALL. Well, where is your home from Patton and Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I had came--I come one block, I had come one block from my home.
Mr. BALL. You were walking, were you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I came from 9th to the corner of 10th Street.
Mr. BALL. And you were walking toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Tenth Street runs the same direction as Jefferson, doesn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. It runs in a generally east and west direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Patton runs north and south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; up and down this way.
Mr. BALL. So you were walking south toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.
Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the street from me. He was almost across Patton Street.
Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking in what direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I guess this would be south.
Mr. BALL. Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.
Mr. BALL. To your left?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.
Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.
Mr. BALL. What did you notice then?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I noticed a police car coming.
Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, well, it stopped.
Mr. BALL. The police car stopped?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this window.
Mr. BALL. He put his arms on the window ledge?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The window was down.
Mr. BALL. It was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Put his arms on the window ledge?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the ledge of the window.
Mr. BALL. And the policeman was sitting where?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the driver's side.
Mr. BALL. He was sitting behind the wheel?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was he alone in the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I didn't think nothing about it; you know, the police are nice and friendly, and I thought friendly conversation. Well, I looked, and there were cars coming, so I had to wait. Well, in a few minutes this man made--
Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. See the policeman? Well, this man, like I told you, put his arms up, leaned over, he just a minute, and he drew back and he stepped back about two steps. Mr. Tippit--
Mr. BALL. The policeman?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman calmly opened the car door, very slowly, wasn't angry or nothing, he calmly crawled out of this car, and I still just thought a friendly conversation, maybe disturbance in the house, I did not know; well, just as the policeman got--
Mr. BALL. Which way did he walk?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards the front of the car. And just as he had gotten even with the wheel on the driver's side--
Mr. BALL. You mean the left front wheel?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; this man shot the policeman.
Mr. BALL. You heard the shots, did you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Three.
Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out on the street.
Mr. BALL. What did the man do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun.
Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back.
Mr. BALL. Toward Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, stared at me. I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I gradually opened my fingers like this, and 1 opened my eyes, and when I did he started off in kind of a little trot.
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.
Mr. BALL. Did you yell at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. When I pulled my fingers down where I could see, I got my hand down, he began to trot off, and then I ran to the policeman.
Mr. BALL. Before you put your hands over your eyes, before you put your hand over your eyes, did you see the man walk towards the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he stared at me.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't do anything. I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you say something?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Or yell or scream?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I could not. I could not say nothing.
Mr. BALL. You looked at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You looked at him
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He looked wild. I mean, well, he did to me.
Mr. BALL. And you say you saw him fooling with his gun?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in his hands.
Mr. BALL. Did you see what he was doing with it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just fooling with it. I didn't know what he was doing. I was afraid he was fixing to kill me.
Mr. BALL. How far away from the police car do you think you were on the corner when you saw the shooting?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I wasn't too far.
Mr. BALL. Can you estimate it in feet? Don't guess.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I would just be afraid to say how many feet because I am a bad judgment on that.
Mr. BALL. When you looked at the man, though, when he came toward the corner, you were standing on one corner, were you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir
Mr. BALL. Where was he standing with reference to the other corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot--
Mr. BALL. When he looked at you.
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot the policeman?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was standing almost even to that curb, not very far from the curb, from the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. Across the street from you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he look at you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you look at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I sure did.
Mr. BALL. That was before you put your hands over your eyes?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and he kept fooling with his gun, and I slapped my hands up to my face like this.
Mr. BALL. And then you ran to the policeman?
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he ran off.
Mr. BALL. In what hand did he have his gun, do you know, when he fired the shots?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir, I believe it was his right. I am not positive because I was scared.
Mr. BALL. When he came down the street towards you, in what hand did he have his gun?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in both of them.
Mr. BALL. He had it in both of them?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When he went towards Jefferson you say he went at sort of a trot?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were there many other, or other people in the block at that time, or were you there with Officer Tippit almost alone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was out there, I didn't see anybody. I was there alone by myself.
Mr. DULLES. I see. You didn't see anybody else in the immediate neighborhood?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; not until everything was over--I never seen anybody until I was at Mr. Tippit's side. I tried to save his life, which was I didn't know at that time I couldn't do something for him.

 

[Bill Brown]

4 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Gil Jesus- question - Was Helen Markham on the way to catch the 1:15PM bus or was it the 1:12PM bus? That is a very big distinction to make. I have always heard it was the 1:12PM. Am I right or wrong on this matter? Does anyone have absolute proof as to whether the waitress Helen Markham was on the way to the 1:12PM or 1:15PM bus.

Thanks in advance to Gil Jesus or anyone else on Education Forum who can provide clarification on this matter.

 

There was no 1:15 bus; only 1:12, 1:22 and about every ten minutes thereafter.

For anyone to pretend to know for a fact which bus Markham was trying to catch (1:12 or 1:22) just shows that they truly don't know anything at all.

 

[Bill Brown]

4 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Helen Markham, in fact, was a very, very good "witness" because she was absolutely cocksure that she saw Officer J.D. Tippit being shot at about 1:06 to 1:07PM. She was so sure about this because she had left the clothes washing machine room at her apartment at 1:04PM and the FBI had timed her walk and it was only a mere 2 to 3 minutes to her witness spot at Tenth and Patten.

Helan Markham was a damn good witness because her timing of the death of J.D. Tippit completely absolves Lee Harvey Oswald who the Warren Commission itself says was at his boarding home as late as 1:03PM and that is 9/10ths of a mile away.

Testimony Of Mrs. Helen Markham (mu.edu)

Mr. BALL. What has been your work most of your life since you were divorced, what kind of work have you done?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Waitress work.
Mr. BALL. You have done waitress work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, Sir.
Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Eat Well Restaurant, 1404 Main Street, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Were you working there on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was.
Mr. BALL. What hours did you work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was due at work from 2:30 in the evening until 10:30 at night.
Mr. BALL. Did you leave your home some time that morning to go to work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That evening?
Mr. BALL. Morning.
Mrs. MARKHAM. That morning?
Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, that day?
Mrs. MARKHAM. At one.
Mr. BALL. One o'clock?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1.
Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to catch the bus?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On Patton and Jefferson.
Mr. BALL. Patton and Jefferson is about a block south of Patton and 10th Street, isn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I think so.
Mr. BALL. Well, where is your home from Patton and Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I had came--I come one block, I had come one block from my home.
Mr. BALL. You were walking, were you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I came from 9th to the corner of 10th Street.
Mr. BALL. And you were walking toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Tenth Street runs the same direction as Jefferson, doesn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. It runs in a generally east and west direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Patton runs north and south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; up and down this way.
Mr. BALL. So you were walking south toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.
Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the street from me. He was almost across Patton Street.
Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking in what direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I guess this would be south.
Mr. BALL. Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.
Mr. BALL. To your left?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.
Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.
Mr. BALL. What did you notice then?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I noticed a police car coming.
Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, well, it stopped.
Mr. BALL. The police car stopped?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this window.
Mr. BALL. He put his arms on the window ledge?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The window was down.
Mr. BALL. It was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Put his arms on the window ledge?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the ledge of the window.
Mr. BALL. And the policeman was sitting where?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the driver's side.
Mr. BALL. He was sitting behind the wheel?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was he alone in the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I didn't think nothing about it; you know, the police are nice and friendly, and I thought friendly conversation. Well, I looked, and there were cars coming, so I had to wait. Well, in a few minutes this man made--
Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. See the policeman? Well, this man, like I told you, put his arms up, leaned over, he just a minute, and he drew back and he stepped back about two steps. Mr. Tippit--
Mr. BALL. The policeman?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman calmly opened the car door, very slowly, wasn't angry or nothing, he calmly crawled out of this car, and I still just thought a friendly conversation, maybe disturbance in the house, I did not know; well, just as the policeman got--
Mr. BALL. Which way did he walk?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards the front of the car. And just as he had gotten even with the wheel on the driver's side--
Mr. BALL. You mean the left front wheel?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; this man shot the policeman.
Mr. BALL. You heard the shots, did you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Three.
Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out on the street.
Mr. BALL. What did the man do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun.
Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back.
Mr. BALL. Toward Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, stared at me. I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I gradually opened my fingers like this, and 1 opened my eyes, and when I did he started off in kind of a little trot.
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.
Mr. BALL. Did you yell at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. When I pulled my fingers down where I could see, I got my hand down, he began to trot off, and then I ran to the policeman.
Mr. BALL. Before you put your hands over your eyes, before you put your hand over your eyes, did you see the man walk towards the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he stared at me.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't do anything. I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you say something?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Or yell or scream?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I could not. I could not say nothing.
Mr. BALL. You looked at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You looked at him
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He looked wild. I mean, well, he did to me.
Mr. BALL. And you say you saw him fooling with his gun?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in his hands.
Mr. BALL. Did you see what he was doing with it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just fooling with it. I didn't know what he was doing. I was afraid he was fixing to kill me.
Mr. BALL. How far away from the police car do you think you were on the corner when you saw the shooting?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I wasn't too far.
Mr. BALL. Can you estimate it in feet? Don't guess.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I would just be afraid to say how many feet because I am a bad judgment on that.
Mr. BALL. When you looked at the man, though, when he came toward the corner, you were standing on one corner, were you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir
Mr. BALL. Where was he standing with reference to the other corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot--
Mr. BALL. When he looked at you.
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot the policeman?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was standing almost even to that curb, not very far from the curb, from the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. Across the street from you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he look at you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you look at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I sure did.
Mr. BALL. That was before you put your hands over your eyes?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and he kept fooling with his gun, and I slapped my hands up to my face like this.
Mr. BALL. And then you ran to the policeman?
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he ran off.
Mr. BALL. In what hand did he have his gun, do you know, when he fired the shots?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir, I believe it was his right. I am not positive because I was scared.
Mr. BALL. When he came down the street towards you, in what hand did he have his gun?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in both of them.
Mr. BALL. He had it in both of them?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When he went towards Jefferson you say he went at sort of a trot?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were there many other, or other people in the block at that time, or were you there with Officer Tippit almost alone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was out there, I didn't see anybody. I was there alone by myself.
Mr. DULLES. I see. You didn't see anybody else in the immediate neighborhood?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; not until everything was over--I never seen anybody until I was at Mr. Tippit's side. I tried to save his life, which was I didn't know at that time I couldn't do something for him.

 

 

The problem here is that the police tapes basically tell you what time it was that Tippit was shot and it was nowhere near Markham's estimate.

For example...

Ted Callaway testified that after hearing the five gun shots, he ran out to the sidewalk on Patton.  This was a little over a half block south of the shooting scene.  Callaway saw a man (who he later identified as Oswald) cutting across Patton as he (Oswald) made his way south on Patton (towards Callaway's position).  Callaway hollered out to the man  as the man continued south on Patton past Callaway's position.  Callaway testified that the man was running and holding a gun.  Callaway saw the man head west on Jefferson (the same direction as the theater).

Once the man turned west onto Jefferson, Callaway ran a "good hard run" up to the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Callaway, noticing the stopped patrol car, went to the car and saw the officer (Tippit) lying dead in the street.  Callaway said the first thing he did was to grab the police car radio and report the shooting.  He said he didn't know if anyone had reported it yet, so he decided to report it himself.

To recap, Callaway hears the shots.  Runs to the sidewalk.  Sees the gunman run south on Patton the entire block from Tenth to Jefferson.  Runs the two-thirds of a block up to the shooting scene.  Goes over to the police car and the first thing he does is grab the radio and report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

How much time do you believe passed from the time Callaway heard the shots to the time he reported the shooting on the police radio?

Let's say two minutes pass from the time Oswald shoots Tippit to the time Oswald turns the corner from Patton onto Jefferson.  This is a little over one block and Oswald was running.

Let's say it takes Callaway one minute when he made the "good hard run" the two-thirds of a block from his location to the patrol car.

If these two time estimates are anywhere close to being correct, then Callaway is at the patrol car roughly three minutes after the shots rang out.  Let's add another full minute for error.  So we have Callaway at the patrol car using the police radio about four minutes after the shots rang out.

Here's the thing... Callaway's report to the dispatcher while using the patrol car radio took place at 1:19/1:20.

Do the math and work it backwards.  At 1:19/1:20, Callaway makes the call.  If four minutes have passed (and that's being generous, in my opinion) since the shots rang out, then the shots rang out around 1:15.

 

[Robert Morrow]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

 

There was no 1:15 bus; only 1:12, 1:22 and about every ten minutes thereafter.

For anyone to pretend to know for a fact which bus Markham was trying to catch (1:12 or 1:22) just shows that they truly don't know anything at all.

 

If you only live just a few minutes walk away from the bus stop, why do you want to leave at 1:04PM - walk 6 minutes and be 12 minutes early for your 1:22PM bus? Why not leave at 1:04PM, being a tad late, and then getting to your bus stop a few minutes before the 1:12PM bus gets there. If you, a waitress, have taken the bus so many times, surely one would know how to time it pretty good.

[Bill Brown]

4 minutes ago, Robert Morrow said:

If you only live just a few minutes walk away from the bus stop, why do you want to leave at 1:04PM - walk 6 minutes and be 12 minutes early for your 1:22PM bus? Why not leave at 1:04PM, being a tad late, and then getting to your bus stop a few minutes before the 1:12PM bus gets there. If you, a waitress, have taken the bus so many times, surely one would know how to time it pretty good.

 

"If you only live just a few minutes walk away from the bus stop, why do you want to leave at 1:04PM - walk 6 minutes and be 12 minutes early for your 1:22PM bus?"

And there lies the point.  Perhaps she was intending on arriving at the bus stop at 1:15 (which is the ONLY time she ever gives for anything related to the bus and/or bus stop).  This would be perfectly reasonable in order to catch the 1:22 bus.  My opinion is that she did not leave her apartment at 1:04.  The police tapes support my opinion.

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

Trying to follow things here, I never studied the Tippit case in great detail. 

But what happened with that bus scheduled at 1:12PM?

Do we have the name of the driver? Did he see anything on his way there? Nothing at all? He could have been close to the shooting, perhaps noticed a police car, LHO,... ?  I don´t recall reading about him? 

[Bill Brown]

13 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Trying to follow things here, I never studied the Tippit case in great detail. 

But what happened with that bus scheduled at 1:12PM?

Do we have the name of the driver? Did he see anything on his way there? Nothing at all? He could have been close to the shooting, perhaps noticed a police car, LHO,... ?  I don´t recall reading about him? 

 

Obviously if the shooting occurred at 1:14/1:15, then the 1:12 bus schedule to stop over one block away is meaningless.

 

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the street from me. He was almost across Patton Street.
Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking in what direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I guess this would be south.
Mr. BALL. Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.
Mr. BALL. To your left?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.
Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.
 

This doesn't make any sense to me.

Based on what Markham said, Oswald had been walking east on 10th St, and was crossing Patton, almost ready to step up on the curb.

Where was he coming from?

Steve Thomas

[Jean Ceulemans]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Obviously if the shooting occurred at 1:14/1:15, then the 1:12 bus schedule to stop over one block away is meaningless.

 

 I don´t know the exact route it was on, so it never was near the crime scene?

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Trying to follow things here, I never studied the Tippit case in great detail.

 

Jean,

If you go down this rabbit hole, you're going to find out everybody's timing is off by something like 8 minutes. Ultimately you'll come to the conclusion that the timestamps on the DPD Dictabelts are off by that same amount. That is to say, the coverup artists added those minutes to the Dictabelt recordings.

Once you compensate for that by subtracting 8 minutes from what is shown on the Dictabelt transcripts, then all is well and everybody's timing works out.

Except that Oswald cannot have been there in time to shoot Tippit. Which is fine because he wasn't. Apparently the coverup artists added those extra minutes to give Oswald time to arrive and shoot Tippit.

 

BTW, here's an example of times being inconsistent: The doctors at the hospital tried to resuscitate Tippit. They couldn't, so they pronounced him dead-on-arrival at 1:15 PM. Problem is, according to the Dictabelt timestamps, Tippit hadn't even been picked up by the ambulance by then.