My New Book, A Heritage of Nonsense: Jim Garrison's Tales of Mystery and Imagination

[Steve Roe]

2 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Huh?

This is defamatory nonsense.  I never deleted any such comment.

I recently asked Mr. Litwin, a successful sales and marketing professional, if he had ever contracted with any U.S. government-affiliated agencies to denigrate JFKA researchers.

Point everyone here to your comment. Set the record straight. 

[Greg Doudna]

Steve Roe, if the young man was from Tyler that’s a larger city about 20 miles from Big Sandy so he would not be a local in that sense. But the idea of claiming the body was lying out in the road when he hit her when that may not have been true, is like stories about advice if you shoot an intruder outside your home pull the body in to make it legal you shot them.

But something you said strikes thoughts on two other points. Suppose she was hitchhiking off the side of the road and he was intoxicated and ran her down and she was off the road. I don’t know the specifics but I would expect that could mean prison time, very serious consequences. Even if somehow a good lawyer got the penalty plea bargained down or however those things work, there could be huge civil liabilities if a lawyer for the family of the victim decided to go after money. So the facts on record of the case mattered in which she was reported out in the road and running her over was reported unavoidable and not the drivers fault.

I am going from memory but I do not recall if or when police checked him for alcohol, but I am thinking of something my Big Sandy friend told me about the case in a possible different light. The delay. There was some delay in getting her to a hospital emergency room, something about first driving to a doctors private home (?) first, delay, being told to go elsewhere. 

According to what I was told, black men in a car stopped to help. Perhaps they were witnesses if not of the hit itself but of what they might have seen at the scene. They helped load her into the young man’s car. He said they were afraid to get involved and would not give their contact information because they did not want to talk to police. But they could just as easily have given their contact information, been willing to talk to the police, do whatever was asked or would help, but were never contacted because he never turned that contact information in and only claimed they never gave him any. On the other hand the story is plausible (rough times for blacks in rural east Texas). There is no way to know for sure. A lot depends on the word of the driver who had motive and may have had family legal advice in play early on. 

Like you I do not see this as foul play or a suspicious death of a JFKA person. He didn’t mean to hit her, but there very well could have been a scandal in the reporting of a manslaughter situation. 

I forgot to mention so people can know, that Litwin credited you for much of the research that went into his chapter on Rose Cheramie.

Edited 8 hours ago by Greg Doudna

[W. Niederhut]

16 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Point everyone here to your comment. Set the record straight. 

Mr. Roe,

     I apologize, in advance, for dunking on you.  Here's my August 10, 2024 question for your colleague, Fred Litwin.

     I hope Pat Speer won't also misconstrue this as "harassment."  🙄

 

W. Niederhut

• 
• Moderators
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• Location:Denver, Colorado
• Interests:American history, European history, economics, world literature, philosophy, science, medicine, psychiatry, JFK assassination, 9/11

Posted August 10

  On 8/10/2024 at 6:34 PM, Fred Litwin said:

Does this comment violate the rules of the Forum?

By the way, here is my reply to DiEugenio's comments on my books:

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/fred-litwin-s-follies

Here is another article, people might be interested in:

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/the-scholarship-of-james-dieugenio

No shortage of insults there.

Fred

Expand  

Fred,

     The "nitwit" comment is a violation of forum decorum.

     As for your essay (above) about DiEugenio, Oliver Stone, and the Jim Garrison investigation, it's the most ludicrous thing I've read on the subject since Alecia P. Long's nonsensical "review" of JFK Revisited in the Washington Post a few years ago.

    Honest question.  I know that you are a successful sales-and-marketing guy.

    Have you, perchance, been working on contract with any U.S. government-affiliated agency, since 2018, to promote public acceptance of the Warren Commission Report?

[Steve Roe]

5 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Steve Roe, if the young man was from Tyler that’s a larger city about 25 miles or so from Big Sandy so he would not be a local in that sense. But the idea of claiming the body was lying out in the road when he hit her when that may not have been true, is like stories about advice if you shoot an intruder outside your home pull the body in to make it legal you shot them.

But something you said strikes thoughts on two other points. Suppose she was hitchhiking off the side of the road and he was intoxicated and ran her down and she was off the road. I don’t know the specifics but I would expect that could mean prison time, very serious consequences. Even if somehow a good lawyer got the penalty plea bargained down or however those things work, there could be huge civil liabilities if a lawyer for the family of the victim decided to go after money. So the facts on record of the case mattered in which she was reported out in the road and running her over was reported unavoidable and not the drivers fault.

I am going from memory but I do not recall if or when police checked him for alcohol, but I am thinking of something my Big Sandy friend told me about the case in a possible different light. The delay. There was some claim—with an explanation for it—of a significant delay in getting her to a hospital emergency room, something about first driving to a doctors private home (?) first, delay, being told to go elsewhere. Was the delay time to get alcohol out of his system before police contact. Maybe he made phone calls immediately, say his father or whoever, got advice what to do. 

According to what I was told, black men in a car stopped to help. Perhaps they were witnesses if not of the hit itself but if what they saw at the scene. They helped load her into the young man’s car. He said they were afraid to get involved and would not give their contact information because they did not want to talk to police. But they could just as easily have given their contact information, been willing to talk to the police, do whatever was asked or would help, but were never contacted because he never turned that contact information in and only claimed they never gave him any. On the other hand the story is plausible (rough times for blacks in rural east Texas). There is no way to know for sure. A lot depends on the word of the driver who had heavy duty motive and may have had family legal advice in play early on. 

Like you I do not see this as foul play or a suspicious death of a JFKA person. He didn’t mean to hit her, but there very well could have been a scandal in the reporting of a manslaughter/DUI situation. 

I forgot to mention so people can know, that Litwin credited you for much of the research that went into his chapter on Rose Cheramie.

Going off memory here too, it seems they did take Melba to Big Sandy first, at a doctor's clinic. Then she was transported to the Gilmer hospital who was more equipped to deal with her injury. 

I have no idea if this man had been drinking, but it seems odd that he was on Hwy 155 in those hours. Whatever happened, it was nothing more than an accident. As you say, not a devious snuff job to silence her because of her claims, which came out later, about foreknowledge of the Kennedy assassination. 

[Steve Roe]

4 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Mr. Roe,

     I apologize, in advance, for dunking on you.  Here's my August 10, 2024 question for your colleague, Fred Litwin.

     I hope Pat Speer won't also misconstrue this as "harassment."  🙄

 

W. Niederhut

• 
• Moderators
• •  6.9k
• Location:Denver, Colorado
• Interests:American history, European history, economics, world literature, philosophy, science, medicine, psychiatry, JFK assassination, 9/11

 

•  

Posted August 10

  On 8/10/2024 at 6:34 PM, Fred Litwin said:

Does this comment violate the rules of the Forum?

By the way, here is my reply to DiEugenio's comments on my books:

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/fred-litwin-s-follies

Here is another article, people might be interested in:

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/the-scholarship-of-james-dieugenio

No shortage of insults there.

Fred

Expand  

Fred,

     The "nitwit" comment is a violation of forum decorum.

     As for your essay (above) about DiEugenio, Oliver Stone, and the Jim Garrison investigation, it's the most ludicrous thing I've read on the subject since Alecia P. Long's nonsensical "review" of JFK Revisited in the Washington Post a few years ago.

    Honest question.  I know that you are a successful sales-and-marketing guy.

    Have you, perchance, been working on contract with any U.S. government-affiliated agency, since 2018, to promote public acceptance of the Warren Commission Report?

No, nice dodge. This was just days ago. Please get the record straight, eveyone has seen it. 

Dr. N, please no more forums games. There were complaints about it and you offer up this lame excuse. 

[W. Niederhut]

32 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

No, nice dodge. This was just days ago. Please get the record straight, eveyone has seen it. 

Dr. N, please no more forums games. There were complaints about it and you offer up this lame excuse. 

I have no idea what you're talking about, Mr. Roe.

Prior to volunteering as a mod here, I had your posts on ignore, for years.

Sadly, I'm now forced to read them.

In my opinion, you should be banned from the Education Forum for persistently posting false, "Lone Nut" propaganda and, now, posting false, defamatory statements about a moderator.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Well, fat lot of good this will do, but here goes...

CT'ers (and I am one) need to be equally skeptical about CT narratives and interpretations as we are of LN narratives and interpretations. But without bile, in either case. 

All government investigations (especially if partisan, or if done for expedient reasons) are suspect, as there is not the adversarial process, which brings in alternative or contradictory narratives and evidence, and cross-examines government witnesses and evidence.

I will provide one small example. 

Lt. Fruge filed a report (produced earlier in this thread) with the tantalizing sentence that he had "verified" that Rose Cheramie had worked for Jack Ruby. 

That is incredibly interesting.

But how was the employment verified, and when did the employment occur? 

Yet, there the trail ends. The HSCA interviewed Fruge (Robert Buras) and evidently the topic does not come up, at all.

Huh? How could you not ask Fruge about this topic? See link, HSCA notes immediately below).  

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32261445.pdf

Similarly, the HSCA's officially published staff report (Patricia Orr) makes no mention of Cheramie's employment by Ruby. This, despite there being Fruge's official report to that effect. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=201

Huh? 

So, did Cheramie work for Ruby or not? And when? And how did Fruge "verify" that info? Gets a little iffy. 

My take is Litwin makes some good points, by going after the weakest chapters of the JFKA lore. 

But Litwin does not answer: If there is nothing to the JFKA case, why is the Biden Administration doing a snuff job on the JFK Records Act...60 years later the fact? 

 

[W. Niederhut]

12 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Well, fat lot of good this will do, but here goes...

CT'ers (and I am one) need to be equally skeptical about CT narratives and interpretations as we are of LN narratives and interpretations. But without bile, in either case. 

All government investigations (especially if partisan, or if done for expedient reasons) are suspect, as there is not the adversarial process, which brings in alternative or contradictory narratives and evidence, and cross-examines government witnesses and evidence.

I will provide one small example. 

Lt. Fruge filed a report (produced earlier in this thread) with the tantalizing sentence that he had "verified" that Rose Cheramie had worked for Jack Ruby. 

That is incredibly interesting.

But how was the employment verified, and when did the employment occur? 

Yet, there the trail ends. The HSCA interviewed Fruge (Robert Buras) and evidently the topic does not come up, at all.

Huh? How could you not ask Fruge about this topic? See link, HSCA notes immediately below).  

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32261445.pdf

Similarly, the HSCA's officially published staff report (Patricia Orr) makes no mention of Cheramie's employment by Ruby. This, despite there being Fruge's official report to that effect. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=201

Huh? 

So, did Cheramie work for Ruby or not? And when? And how did Fruge "verify" that info? Gets a little iffy. 

My take is Litwin makes some good points, by going after the weakest chapters of the JFKA lore. 

But Litwin does not answer: If there is nothing to the JFKA case, why is the Biden Administration doing a snuff job on the JFK Records Act...60 years later the fact? 

 

Ben,

    There's no meaningful equivalence between the WCR/Lone Nut theory and the alternative of a "conspiracy" to assassinate JFK.

    The Lone Nut theory has been definitively debunked by multiple contrary facts.

    If you study the philosophy of science, you will learn that valid theories, by definition, must explain all of the facts without being debunked by any facts.

     It's a very high bar, and the WCR/Lone Nut theory doesn't even come close to clearing it.

     As for Rose Cheramie, read DiEugenio's detailed 1999 essay on the subject.

Edited 12 hours ago by W. Niederhut

[Fred Litwin]

Dr. Niederhut: Mr. DiEugenio's article claims that Dr, Owens heard Cheramie talk about the assassination before it happened.

Have a read of my article about that:

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-dr-wayne-owens-hear-rose-cherami-predict-the-jfk-assassination

Do you think his research holds up?

fred

[W. Niederhut]

41 minutes ago, Fred Litwin said:

Dr. Niederhut: Mr. DiEugenio's article claims that Dr, Owens heard Cheramie talk about the assassination before it happened.

Have a read of my article about that:

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-dr-wayne-owens-hear-rose-cherami-predict-the-jfk-assassination

Do you think his research holds up?

fred

Fred,

     Firstly, your article begins with blatant bunk-- referring to the non-LN theories about JFK's assassination as "mythology."  That is simply false.

    The true "mythology" is the WCR/Lone Nut theory promoted by CIA contract journalists in the mainstream U.S. media for the past 60 years.  The mythological LN theory has been debunked by multiple contrary facts.

     Meanwhile, here is James DiEugenio's unedited 1999 essay on the subject of Rose Cheramie. * Let's look at the full text, rather than cherry-picking to make a fraudulent case.

     If you read DiEugenio's text, below, Dr. Owen, an intern at the time, was one of many people who were aware of Cheramie's foreknowledge of the JFK assassination plot -- including, of course, Lt. Francis Fruge and Dr. Victor Weiss.

     Secondly, the DiEugenio text does not specify whether the intern, Dr. Owen, heard about Cheramie's foreknowledge of the assassination plot directly from Cheramie, or from a professor who spoke about it to the interns. (Red italics mine.)

Monday, 16 August 1999 20:05

* Rose Cheramie: How She Predicted the JFK Assassination

Written by James DiEugenio

• Print

•  

Jim DiEugenio reports on his research into the Rose Cheramie story.

---

From the July-August 1999 issue (Vol. 6 No. 5) of Probe

---

On November 20, 1963, Lt. Francis Fruge of the Louisiana State Police received a phone call from Moosa Memorial Hospital in Eunice. A Mrs. Louise Guillory, the hospital administrator told him that there was an accident victim in the emergency ward. Guillory knew that Fruge worked the narcotics detail and she felt that the woman was under the influence of drugs.

Fruge immediately left for the hospital. When he got there he encountered a middle-aged white female sitting down in the waiting room outside emergency. There were no serious injuries; only bruises and abrasions. She was only partly coherent. But Moosa was a private hospital and since the woman seemed bereft of funds, Guillory had called Fruge to see what he could do to help. The woman identified herself to Fruge as Rose Cheramie.

Fruge had no choice at the time except to place Cheramie in the Eunice City Jail. He then went out to attend the Eunice Police Department's Annual Ball. About an hour later a police officer came over to the function and told Fruge that Cheramie was undergoing withdrawal symptoms. Fruge came back and, after recognizing the condition, called a local doctor, Dr. Derouin, from the coroner's office. Derouin administered a sedative via syringe to calm her down. The doctor then suggested that she be removed from the jail and taken to the state facility in Jackson. After Fruge agreed, Derouin called the facility at about midnight on the 20th and made arrangements for her delivery there. Afterwards, Fruge called Charity Hospital in Lafayette and ordered an ambulance for the transport to the hospital.

Fruge accompanied Cheramie to the hospital. And, according to his House Select Committee deposition, it was at this point that Rose began to relate her fascinating and astonishing tale. Calmed by the sedative, and according to Fruge, quite lucid, she began to respond to some routine questions with some quite unusual answers. She told him that she was en route from Florida to Dallas with two men who looked Cuban or Italian. The men told her that they were going to kill the president in Dallas in just a few days. Cheramie herself was not part of the plot but apparently the men were also part of a large dope ring with Rose since Cheramie's function was as a courier of funds for heroin which was to be dropped off to her by a seaman coming into the port of Galveston. She was to pick up the money for the drugs from a man who was holding her child. It seemed a quite intricate dope ring since she was then to transport the heroin to Mexico. The two men were supposed to accompany her to Mexico but the whole transaction got short-circuited on Highway 190 near Eunice. In the confines of a seedy bar called the Silver Slipper Lounge, Cheramie's two friends were met by a third party. Rose left with the two men she came with. But a short distance away from the bar, an argument apparently ensued. And although some have written that she was thrown out of the vehicle and hit by an oncoming car, according to Fruge, Rose said that the argument took place inside the Silver Slipper, and that the two men and the manager, Mac Manual, threw her out. While hitchhiking on the 190, she was hit by a car driven by one Frank Odom. It was Odom who then delivered her to Moosa. As Fruge so memorably recalled to Jonathan Blackmer of the HSCA, Cheramie summed up her itinerary in Dallas in the following manner: "She said she was going to, number one, pick up some money, pick up her baby, and to kill Kennedy." (p. 9 of Fruge's 4/18/78 deposition)

At the hospital, Cheramie again predicted the assassination. On November 22nd, several nurses were watching television with Cheramie. According to these witnesses, "…during the telecast moments before Kennedy was shot Rose Cheramie stated to them, ‘This is when it is going to happen' and at that moment Kennedy was assassinated. The nurses, in turn, told others of Cheramie's prognostication." (Memo of Frank Meloche to Louis Ivon, 5/22/67. Although the Dallas motorcade was not broadcast live on the major networks, the nurses were likely referring to the spot reports that circulated through local channels in the vicinity of the trip. Of course, the assassination itself was reported on by network television almost immediately after it happened.) Further, according to a psychiatrist there, Dr. Victor Weiss, Rose "…told him that she knew both Ruby and Oswald and had seen them sitting together on occasions at Ruby's club." (Ibid., 3/13/67) In fact, Fruge later confirmed the fact that she had worked as a stripper for Ruby. (Louisiana State Police report of 4/4/67.)

Fruge had discounted Cheramie's earlier comments to him as drug-induced delusions. Or, as he said to Blackmer, "When she came out with the Kennedy business, I just said, wait a minute, wait a minute, something wrong here somewhere." (Fruge, HSCA deposition, p. 9) He further described her in this manner:

Now, bear in mind that she talked: she'd talk for awhile, looks like the shots would have effect on her again and she'd go in, you know, she'd just get numb, and after awhile she'd just start talking again. (Ibid.)

But apparently, at the time of the assassination Cheramie appeared fine. The word spread throughout the hospital that she had predicted Kennedy's murder in advance. Dr. Wayne Owen, who had been interning from LSU at the time, later told the Madison Capital Times that he and other interns were told of the plot in advance of the assassination. Amazingly, Cheramie even predicted the role of her former boss Jack Ruby because Owen was quoted as saying that one of the interns was told "…that one of the men involved in the plot was a man named Jack Rubinstein." (2/11/68) Owen said that they shrugged it off at the time. But when they learned that Rubinstein was Ruby they grew quite concerned. "We were all assured that something would be done about it by the FBI or someone. Yet we never heard anything." (Ibid.) In fact, Cheramie's association with Ruby was also revealed to Dr. Weiss. For in an interview with him after the assassination, Rose revealed that she had worked as a drug courier for Jack Ruby. (Memo of Frank Meloche to Jim Garrison, 2/23/67) In the same memo, there is further elaboration on this important point:

I believe she also mentioned that she worked in the night club for Ruby and that she was forced to go to Florida with another man whom she did not name to pick up a shipment of dope to take back to Dallas, that she didn't want to do this thing but she had a young child and that they would hurt her child if she didn't.

These comments are, of course, very revealing about Ruby's role in both an intricate drug smuggling scheme and, at the least, his probable acquaintance with men who either had knowledge of, or were actually involved in, the assassination. This is a major point in this story which we will return to later.

Although Fruge had discounted the Cheramie story on November 20th, the events of the 22nd made him a believer. Right after JFK's murder, Fruge "…called that hospital up in Jackson and told them by no way in the world to turn her loose until I could get my hands on her." (Fruge's HSCA deposition, p. 12.) So on November 25th, Fruge journeyed up to Jackson again to talk to Cheramie. This time he conducted a much more in-depth interview. Fruge found out that Cheramie had been traveling with the two men from Miami. He also found that the men seemed to be a part of the conspiracy rather than to be just aware of it. After the assassination, they were supposed to stop by a home in Dallas to pick up both around eight thousand dollars plus Rose's baby. From there Cheramie was supposed to check into the Rice Hotel in Houston under an assumed name. Houston is in close proximity to Galveston, the town from which the drugs were coming in from. From Houston, once the transaction was completed, the trio were headed for Mexico.

How reliable a witness was Cheramie? Extermely. Fruge decided to have the drug deal aspect of her story checked out by the state troopers and U. S. Customs. The officers confirmed the name of the seaman on board the correct ship coming into Galveston. The Customs people checked the Rice Hotel and the reservations had been made for her under an assumed name. The contact who had the money and her baby was checked and his name showed that he was an underworld, suspected narcotics dealer. Fruge checked Cheramie's baggage and found that one box had baby clothes and shoes inside.

Fruge flew Cheramie from Louisiana to Houston on Tuesday, the 26th. In the back seat of the small Sesna 180, a newspaper was lying between them. One of the headlines read to the effect that "investigators or something had not been able to establish a relationship between Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald." (Fruge's HSCA deposition p. 19) When Cheramie read this headline, she started to giggle. She then added, "Them two queer sons-of-a-bitches. They've been shacking up for years." (Ibid.) She added that she knew this to be true from her experience of working for Ruby. Fruge then had his superior call up Captain Will Fritz of the Dallas Police to relay what an important witness Cheramie could be in his investigation. Fruge related what followed next:

Colonel Morgan called Captain Fritz up from Dallas and told him what we had, the information that we had, that we had a person that had given us this information. And of course there again it was an old friend, and there was a little conversation. But anyway, when Colonel Morgan hung up, he turned around and told us they don't want her. They're not interested.

Fruge then asked Cheramie if she wished to try telling her tale to the FBI. She declined. She did not wish to involve herself further. With this, the Cheramie investigation was now halted. Rose was released and Fruge went back to Louisiana. So, just four days after the assassination, with an extremely and provably credible witness alive, with her potentially explosive testimony able to be checked out, the Cheramie testimony was now escorted out to pasture. Eyewitness testimony that Ruby knew Oswald, that Ruby was somehow involved in an international drug circle, that two Latins were aware of and perhaps involved in a plot to kill Kennedy, and that Ruby probably knew the men; this incredible lead – ;the type investigators pine for – ;was being shunted aside by Fritz. It would stay offstage until Jim Garrison began to poke into the Kennedy case years later.

...

The rest of this article can be found in The Assassinations, edited by Jim DiEugenio and Lisa Pease.

Edited 9 hours ago by W. Niederhut

[Robert Morrow]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

I have no idea what you're talking about, Mr. Roe.

Prior to volunteering as a mod here, I had your posts on ignore, for years.

Sadly, I'm now forced to read them.

In my opinion, you should be banned from the Education Forum for persistently posting false, "Lone Nut" propaganda and, now, posting false, defamatory statements about a moderator.

 

Anyone yapping about the Lone Nutters seems to be insecure in countering their arguments. I am not. I just say "See Gil Jesus'" webpage on whatever topic is being discussed.