Who was Saul?

[Tim Gratz]

The Kennedy case can confuse anyone! Remember the Ferrie character in "JFK" quoting Chirchill re mystery wrapped in an enigma, etc. I'm sure some of it is due to false trails cleverly laid by the diabolical plotters but not ALL of the confusion can be contributed to conspiracy, IMO, and that is the really strange part of it. For instance, what about the fact that deMohrenschilt was friendly with Jackie's mother? If indeed he was part of the conspiracy, as many suspect, it doesn't get much stranger than that!

[Shanet Clark]

James et al...

I think they are the same guy, although your doubts and GH's agreement make ME wonder about it. But lets say its one guy. What was the motivation of the CIA to release these? How often do they release photos? Almost never, right? And to release these as OSWALD, the most familiar "mug" on Earth? This reeks of a counter-intelligence game, and a frame.

Thanks for the extra pictures of URM, I see he was definitely inside the Soviet grounds now, not just posing at the gate. A few more snaps more or less (different from the sample day photos above) doesn't bother me, I think the URM series is a normal series of observation post snaps....

Who has heard the OSWALD tapes linked to these photos?

Who was looking for Kostikov of the 13th (wet) KGB section?

Was this man (the URM) looking for Kostikov and talking AS OSWALD, was this the Agency's point, that this is the photo series that matches the audio in point of time?

Does that make it any clearer? its a Grahame Greene type scenario all the way......

Edited March 28, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[John Geraghty]

For a few more comments and thoughts on Saul, see this thread on the forum,  from some time back.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ic=1116&hl=saul

Fellow Forum member Justin Martell tells us that a law enforcement guru by the name of Hugh McDonald has tracked down the man in the Mexico city photos and claims to have spoken to him. Further, McDonald claims that the man is called Saul.

According to Martell, this information is available in the book titled "Coincidence or Conspiracy?"

It seems that now two separate sources identify this man as Saul Sage (Sague). I believe the Yuriy Ivanovitch Moskalev story is a CIA disinformation attempt, merely because "there ain't nothin' Russian about the way that fellow looks".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Antti, I think you're confused on this info. The name "Saul" was given to the mystery man by Hugh McDonald in his book "Appointment in Dallas." McDonald was a former Los Angeles County Chief of Detectives and claimed a relationship with military intelligence and the CIA. Hemming's calling this man "Saul" is just him being cute. "Saul" was not his real name. McDonald did indeed claim to have tracked down the man and to have spoken with him. The story recounted by Saul is not all that believable, however. There is reference to McDonald in the HSCA's report on De Mohrenschildt, indicating that McDonald did indeed conduct his own investigation and that his story is not all b.s. McDonald eventually came to theorize that LBJ cut a deal with Russian hard-liners, and that the Russians, with Oswald's Mexico City travel companion Albert Osborne as operative, set up the assassination. I think McDonald was well-intentioned but was misled by "Saul" and some of his CIA contacts.

I was just browsing this thread again when I came upon Pats post here. I just want to say that I have just finished reading this book and nowhere in it did I read a part saying that LBJ cut a deal with the Russians. McDonald does not in fact speculate as to wh ordered the assassination.

I think Pat may have been mistaken or thought of a different book.

I posted this just in case someone stumbled upon this thread in the future.

John

[John Geraghty]

Tim Carroll has rightly corrected me, Pat was referring to McDonalds fictionalised account titled 'LBJ and the JFK Conspiracy'.

Apologies for that,

John

[Larry Hancock]

For a few more comments and thoughts on Saul, see this thread on the forum,  from some time back.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ic=1116&hl=saul

Fellow Forum member Justin Martell tells us that a law enforcement guru by the name of Hugh McDonald has tracked down the man in the Mexico city photos and claims to have spoken to him. Further, McDonald claims that the man is called Saul.

According to Martell, this information is available in the book titled "Coincidence or Conspiracy?"

It seems that now two separate sources identify this man as Saul Sage (Sague). I believe the Yuriy Ivanovitch Moskalev story is a CIA disinformation attempt, merely because "there ain't nothin' Russian about the way that fellow looks".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Antti, I think you're confused on this info. The name "Saul" was given to the mystery man by Hugh McDonald in his book "Appointment in Dallas." McDonald was a former Los Angeles County Chief of Detectives and claimed a relationship with military intelligence and the CIA. Hemming's calling this man "Saul" is just him being cute. "Saul" was not his real name. McDonald did indeed claim to have tracked down the man and to have spoken with him. The story recounted by Saul is not all that believable, however. There is reference to McDonald in the HSCA's report on De Mohrenschildt, indicating that McDonald did indeed conduct his own investigation and that his story is not all b.s. McDonald eventually came to theorize that LBJ cut a deal with Russian hard-liners, and that the Russians, with Oswald's Mexico City travel companion Albert Osborne as operative, set up the assassination. I think McDonald was well-intentioned but was misled by "Saul" and some of his CIA contacts.

I was just browsing this thread again when I came upon Pats post here. I just want to say that I have just finished reading this book and nowhere in it did I read a part saying that LBJ cut a deal with the Russians. McDonald does not in fact speculate as to wh ordered the assassination.

I think Pat may have been mistaken or thought of a different book.

I posted this just in case someone stumbled upon this thread in the future.

John

[Thomas Graves]

Interesting hit at NARA

AGENCY INFORMATION

            AGENCY : HSCA

      RECORD NUMBER : 180-10112-10044

    RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 002458

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

        ORIGINATOR : HSCA

              FROM : MALENE, W. SCOTT

                TO : GAY, DONOVAN

              TITLE : [No Title]

              DATE : 12/23/1976

              PAGES : 3

      DOCUMENT TYPE : MEMORANDUM

          SUBJECTS : "SAUL"; SAGUE, TAULER; RUBY, JACK; MEXICO CITY;

                      ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

    CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

      RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

    CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 05/18/1993

          COMMENTS : ATTACHED CHRONOLOGY. BOX  59.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lee,

I have a three page document that may be the one you referenced. It has the curious mention of getting Ascham (Allen Dulles) to prevail on the Commission to alter photographs so not to be identifiable with Ruby. The document originated from Mexico City.

For some reason I am unable to attach images at the moment so I will sent it privately.

James

____________________________________________

Hi James,

Verrry in-ter-ress-tink...

Were you ever able to post the "images" to the forum? If not, could you please do so now?

Thanks,

--Thomas

____________________________________________

[James Richards]

Thomas,

Here is page 1.

James

[James Richards]

Peter,

Here are the other two pages to that document.

They posted out of order. Sorry.

James

Edited May 23, 2008 by James Richards

[James Richards]

Which embassy was PB/RUMEN? This is quite an amazing doc - rather a hot potato, I'd think. Where was Ruby during the time of photos taken of 'Oswald' in MC? Did Ruby have a double too?

Peter,

PBRUMEN was the cryptonym for Cuba.

James

[Lee Forman]

Thomas,

Here is page 1.

James

Hey James - that's simply wonderful. And for folks who remain dubious about official efforts in aleration, one would assume that this document alone would provide substantial weight. But you can only force the horses head under the water and make him drown unfortunately.

Summary of this document seems to be a rapid cover game and decamping - I'll bet Phillips was awful busy. Imagine the ration of bacon that the Mexico station received after botching that job. Phillips 'rehistory' on it was quite humorous - wish I had been around to laugh in his face after reading that passage back to him from his book.

Once again for tie-back here, I found the reference by MacDonald's 'Saul' concerning shadowing Oswald and finding him talking to himself and laughing - remarking audibly about 'shining hero' -- of some substance given the release of Baker's book, and her nickname of same for Oswald.

[And yes, I believe it is actually quite normal to talk to yourself in a foreign country when you do not know the language and have no friends - and your family wouldn't know a dammed thing about it. I still take exception to that remark. I myself have been in many countries where I knew only a smattering of phrases [like 'Sostengo di essere innocente, devo contattare l’ambasciata' and it was quite normal to speak aloud to myself - and I can assure anyone, my family knows nothing of that.]

Let's assume that MacDonald's bit has credibility - what would be interesting would be figuring out who the individual was that allegedly made the arrangements with Saul - the man who allegedly laughingly brought a latina woman to one of the meetings and almost got his teeth kicked in for it.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Some interesting ones while doing some cross referencing...

AGENCY : CIA

RECORD NUMBER : 104-10434-10081

RECORDS SERIES : JFK

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : RUSS HOLMES WORK FILE

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CIA

FROM : [No From]

TO : DIRECTOR

TITLE : CABLE: INFORMER CALLED EMBASSY (AUSTRALIA,10/15/62)

ABOUT ADDITIONAL SOVIET TROOPS TO CUBA AND PLOT TO

KILL KENNEDY.

DATE : 11/27/1963

PAGES : 6

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : SVERDLOW

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 11/13/1998

COMMENTS : JFK-RH05 : F109-2 : 1998.11.13.12:18:41:466129 : FILE

ORIGINAL IS PREVIOUSLY SANITIZED DOCUMENT

ORIGINATOR : PRIVATE

FROM : UNSIGNED INFORMER (PRIVATE)

TO : KENNEDY, ROBERT; DULLES, ALLEN

TITLE : CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION TO U.S. ATTY GEN. ROBERT

KENNEDY & ALLEN DULLES GIVING INFO WITH POSSIBLE

BEARING ON THE ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY OF JFK.

DATE : 12/01/1963

PAGES : 2

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : FINGER-MAN; OSWALD IN MEXICO; RUBY, JACK; SYNDICATE

MBR CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 08/12/1993

COMMENTS : JFK30 : F48 : 1993.08.12.17:17:16:960005 : PAGES 55-56

OF 69.

[Lee Forman]

This is simply an interesting observation.

McDonald related in his 'Appointment in Dallas' that 'Saul,' whom we now believe was not Mario Tauler Sague at all [thanks to James Richards ID on Mario], but more likely one Grigorii [Georgi] Visko - commercial representative of the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City [and places like New Orleans and New Laredo - as per Nechiporenko's book], took the killing shot to Kennedy from the 2nd floor of the Records Building - he received the information concerning the location from Kimsey [saul did not provide his specific location to McDonald during their meeting].

One reason for dismissing this location as a possible shooters position - aside from the lack of any eye or ear witness accounts [excluding Rosemary Willis], seems to be a myth which stemmed from a man named Benson? -- Not clear on that -- in which he relates that the Records Building would be an impossible location since the windows do not open!

An examination of the windows in 2004 photos, as well as 1963 demonstrate that they are standard double hung windows - with a locking mechanism at center.

From the account provided by Rosemary Willis in her interview by Texas Monthly:

Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard, it was so abrupt. I didn't know what it was, but I was looking for what I heard. And the pigeons immediately ascended off that roof of the school book depository building and that's what caught my eye. My eyes were searching for what I heard and I see the pigeons, you know, they're scared to death, and take off in abrupt flight. Next thing I know, right after that, there's another shot. And after that, there's another shot and another shot. We disagree, between me and her (nodding towards her mom and sister). My ears heard four shots. If you ask me how many I think there were, I really think that there were six, but I heard four and I'll tell you why: the first one, you know I'm right across from Zapruder. I'm wherever the limousine is. It's almost like I could...I'm right there. Anyway, the first shot rang out. It was to the front of me, and to the right of me, up high. The second shot that I heard came across from my right shoulder. By that time, the limousine had already moved further down. And that shot came across my shoulder. And the next one, right after that, still came from the right but not from as far back, it was up some. Still behind me, but not as far back as the other one. And the next one that came was from the grassy knoll and I saw the smoke coming through the trees, into the air.... Fragments of his head ascended into the air, and from my vision, focal point, the smoke and the fragments, you know, everything met. I mean, there's no question in my mind what I saw or what I heard.

From Roberdeau's plat - it would appear that a shot could have been taken with a clear line of sight to z313, from the 2nd floor of the Record's building. Aside: Not sure as to how he locates Aynesworth there below this set of windows - Aynesworth in his book indicates that he was standing on the corner of Houston and Main.

Using a 360 degree viewer - the present line-of-sight to the 'x' on Elm seems to be a bit obscured by the growth of the trees in the park by the fountain - however, I am not sure that this would have presented an issue in 1963, when the trees were quite smaller in size.

So using the Muchmore film, Hughes film, and Willis 3 - I was able to determine that at a minimum, indeed, there was a window open on the 2nd floor of the Records Building at the time Kennedy passed. Not sure if I can load the animated GIF as it surpasses the maximum upload limit. No - I cannot. However, here attached is a crop taken from Willis 3 - in which it is clear that the 2nd floor window of the Records Building was both open and occupied.

Thanks to Mike Smith and Robin Unger for their input and assistance.

- lee

Edit - I also want to add that it was Judyth Baker's books which gave me the desire to recheck McDonald's account of Saul. The moment I hit her comments on the 'shining hero' nickname for Oswald - I wanted to simply do a bit of my own validation. I have it from a very good source that our man is still living and breathing - despite what Soviet newspapers may have reported. Still like the opportunity to communicate with the man if he gets wind of this - just a few questions - no reprisals. Especially interested in his role in the BOP.

lforman23@comcast.net

Edited October 3, 2008 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Open on 2 in Hughes - so much for the myth about the windows not opening.

Lot's of Viskos in Miami - of course, I was told not to seek contact - but here we are.

Does anyone have the notice that was allegedly published in the St Petersburg press? Their archives only go back a very short way - and so far - looks like you should always question crap people walk in on your carpet for yourself.

- lee

lforman23@comcast.net

[John Simkin]

Email message about Saul Sage:

I am very interested in seeing the pictures you have of Saul Sage. Saul lived with us in the Chicago area in the mid-1960’s when I was about 11 or 12 years old. My father and grandfather met him in Mexico. He was working as a glass bottom boat tour guide. They brought him back to Chicago and he stayed with us for several months. Some posting I read said he was born in 1911 but there is no way he was that much older than my dad. I would say he was born somewhere around 1930. I would like to see the picture. I am not sure I would recognize him after all these years though.

He was quite an artist and story teller. He would draw pictures for me of all the places he had been. He used S&H Green Stamp books as his passport and had border stamps in there from all over South America. He said they didn’t speak English and had no idea what they were stamping. I thought this was the funniest thing I ever heard!

He told my Dad he wrote for Soldier of Fortune magazine but most all of the stories weren’t true. He said he was involved with the Bay of Pigs but no one in my house believed him. We just thought he was a great story teller. His stories seemed so outrageous to us at the time. It wasn’t until information about our government’s dealings came out years later that we wondered whether he was actually telling us the truth.

Saul moved out of our house after about 3 months and got a job as a cab driver. I adored him and missed him terribly. He would come on Sunday’s with his cab and take me for a ride sometimes. I loved sitting in the back of the cab being chauffeured around. Then he just disappeared. I never saw him again. My dad got a call from him about a year later asking for money for his daughter who was supposedly sick. My Dad never believed the story but wired him some money. He was somewhere out in the western US but I don’t remember where. We never heard from him again.

Sometime around 1970, the FBI went to my aunt’s house looking for him. He had used her address to get a job as a cab driver because you had to live in Chicago to drive a Chicago cab. She didn’t remember him and did not put it together. When she told my mom about it, my mom realized they had come looking for Saul. By then, however, he was totally out of our lives.

I know you are probably looking for more “hard” information about the man but it is really all I remember. I would love to see the pictures if you would send them. Thanks

[Greg Burnham]

Interesting email, John--and an interesting thread. Since I wasn't here when this topic started I didn't see the photos posted here (I don't think) either. That would be worthwhile.