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Angleton was right!

James Jesus Angleton's concern that the Soviets had "moles" in high stations in the U.S. intelligence community was probably correct even if he was unsuccessful in locating them. The "reforms" of the Church Committee and the CIA intself following the revlations of the CIA abuses decimated Angleton's counter-intelligence operation with tragic results. Several CIA "assets" lost their lives as a result of the betrayals of Aldrich Ames. a.j. weberman states on his web-site that had the Angleton operation been in operation, Ames would have been discovered before he had wreaked all of his damage.

And consider this example. Willliam Charles Godell was a member of one of the Pentagon's most secret offices, the Advanced Research Projects Agency. President Johnson nominated him to be the director of the National Security Agency. As director, Godell would have had extraordinary access to U.S. intelligence information. But it was discovered that Godell was probably a Soviet mole. The US was unable to indict Godell for espionage because the man to whom he was handing documents was either murdered or commited suicide. To prevent Godell from ever again holding a government job, he was instead indicted and convicted for misspending appropriated government funds.

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James Jesus Angleton was in no sense "right," "correct" or ever vindicated.

His paranoid and counter productive decimation of US intelligence is well documented. The failure of Angleton to ever find any high level SOviet moles in US intelligence is a well worn fact in US diplomatic history.

Angleton's hysterical witch hunts reeked of McCarthyism and the worst kind of Cold War character assassination.

To be very clear, James Jesus Angleton was himself responsible for the grave defects in US intelligence morale during his reign as Counter Intelligence Chief at the Central Intelligence Agency. The witchhunt ruined many carrers, while shrowded in secrecy, and his victims were unable to pursue legal recourse to regain their tarnished reputations and ruined careers.

AJ Weberman's opinions on this matter of no real interest, as this is the YIPPIE most famous for digging through Bob Dylan's garbage, and his opinion about ALdrich Ames and Angleton bears no weight in serious discussions of Angleton's malfeasance and hysterical, reckless behaviour.

No Mr. Angleton was not right, and his decimation of the agency was a travesty of justice unparalleled in US diplomatic history......

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This is pure speculation, but the ultimate irony would be that this whole mole business was a KGB disinformation campaign. If so, then the Soviets succeeded beyond their wildest dreams and the plot is worthy of John le Carré and Robert Ludlum. Just imagine if the Soviets managed to manipulate Angleton (without his knowledge) into paralyzing the CIA.

Angleton was wrong, but I think he was basically a patriot. He was paranoid, for sure. And his thinking was more than a little twisted. He was probably too smart for his own good (and ours). And yes, he ruined many careers. He thought he was doing the right thing for his country. And it's unlikely that he himself was a mole. He was wrong, but probably not evil. There's a difference.

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Tim,

What is your source on Godell? Google turns up nothing. I also tried Goodell.

At the 1996 November in Dallas Conference, Hemming named "Godell" or "Goodell" as one of the people who should have been arrested in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. Having never heard of the Godell you refer to, I thought Hemming must be referring to Charles Goodell, the NY senator. I asked Hemming on this forum why he named Goodell, but he never responded. Your info at least tells me the actual person he was apparently referring to.

Ron

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  • 4 months later...

testing, testing, 1 2 3, testing (this is just to see what happens to a reply in an older topic, I posted in another one with no followup indication that there was a new post there)

edit:: ah, ok it worked. wonder why the other one didn't?

Edited by John Dolva
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Ron wrote:

Tim,

What is your source on Godell? Google turns up nothing. I also tried Goodell.

Wow! I just now realized I had not responded to Ron's inquiry. The source is pages 373-374 of Trento's "The Secret History of the CIA" and his source for the Godell story was Corson.

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Roger wrote:

This is pure speculation, but the ultimate irony would be that this whole mole business was a KGB disinformation campaign. If so, then the Soviets succeeded beyond their wildest dreams and the plot is worthy of John le Carré and Robert Ludlum. Just imagine if the Soviets managed to manipulate Angleton (without his knowledge) into paralyzing the CIA.

Roger, if you have not, I recommend you read Trento's "The Secret History of the CIA." In it, Trento argues that the Soviets were indeed manipulating Angleton (not necessarily in the manner you suggest) and the mastermind behind the KGB manipulation of Angleton was--Kim Philby!.

It is an interesting scenario.

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reading about the history of the junkie virus got me thinking about Angletons mirrors and his orchid interests. The junkie virus was distributed in a pirated game level that quickly spread around the world before it was decoded. one of the problems was that the virus had been encrypted, then that encryption had been encrypted and then a third time.

angleton stopped talking about nosenko when oswald became the topic. he then firmly steered the conversation to orchids and kept it there during interviews at a number of locations.

:::

Epstein

"" Since Angleton's counterintelligence staff had the responsibility for evaluating information supplied by KGB defectors, I assumed that he would be in a position to clarify what Nosenko had been telling me about Oswald and the KGB. I had no idea then that Nosenko had been the subject of a bitter ten-year debate inside the CIA that had destroyed a half-dozen careers, and which helped precipitate the downfall of Angleton himself. Not knowing the mare's-nest of issues surrounding this case, I expected a simple answer when I asked him "Was there any problem with Nosenko's veracity?"

Angleton answered, with a thin smile, suggesting a deliberate understatement, "Truth is always complicated when its comes to defectors". He then added that the case was "still sensitive" and he could not discuss it. With that, he abruptly cut off the conversation about Nosenko, and moved on to a subject of which I had no understanding at all: Orchids. Ordering another bottle of vintage wine, he went into elaborate detail about the pollinating conditions for Dendrobian, Phalaenopsis, Cattyleas, Cymbidian and other tribes of orchids, especially their deceptive qualities. He explained it had not been the fittest but the most deceptive orchid that had survived. The perpetuation of most species of orchids depend on their ability to misrepresent themselves to insects. Having no food to offer the insects, they had to deceive them into landing on them and carrying their pollen to another orchid in the tribe. Orchids are too dispersed in nature to depend on the wind to carry their pollen.

To accomplish this deception, orchids use color, shape and odor to mimic something that attracts insects to their pods of pollen. Some orchids play on the sexual instincts of insects. The tricocerus orchid, for example, so perfectly mimics in three-dimensional the underside of a female fly, downs to the hairs and smell, that they trigger mating response from passing male flies. Seeing what he thinks is a female fly, the male fly swoops down on the orchid, and attempts to have sex with it-- a process called psuedo-copulation. In doing so, the motion causes the fly to hit the pollen pod, which attaches itself to his underside. The fly thus becomes an unwitting carrier. When the fly then passes another tricocerus orchid, and repeat the frustrating process, it pollinate that orchid.

It gradually became clear that he was not only talking about an insect being manipulated through deception but an intelligence service being similarly duped, seduced, provoked, blinded, lured down false trails and used by an enemy.

The last waitor was waiting for us to leave. It was almost 1 a.m. Angleton seemed drunk and I was disappointed. I had learned more than I ever wanted to know about botany but nothing about the subject at hand. As he got up to leave, I made a final try to get back to Nosenko. "But can Nosenko be believed about the assassination?" I asked.

He was silent for a long moment, obviously disappointed that I had not grasped the meaning of his orchid discourse. "I told you I could not discuss cases," he said. "But you might want to buy orchids for your greenhouse..."

"I don't have a greenhouse, but Nosenko..."

He cut me off. Why don't you come with me to Kensington Orchids next time I go."

The high humidity in Kensington Orchid house so fogged my glasses that I hardly see Angleton. He was examining a long, spiny orchid with a flash light. "See this oncidium orchid," he said, as I approached through the corridor of plants. "It has an almost exact replica of a bee's head on its petals." He meticulously traced the upside-down bee's head for me with his flashlight. "Here's the illusionary foe— the killer bee." Unable to distinguish the simulcrum from the real bee, the wasp is triggered to attack. When it plunges its stinger through the petal, the orchid's pollen pod adheres to it. The wasp then flies away and, if it sees another similar orchid, attacks again. But this time its stinger deposits the pollenate from the first orchid on the second. Angleton explains, " provocation is the means by which this species survives". Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the differentiate the real from the fake.

I asked if the CIA possesses that ability.

"It had counterintelligence," he said, speaking in the past tense.

"So did they know if Nosenko was real or fake."

Without answering, he proceeded on to a nearby odontoglossum orchid. He explained it blinded its carrier through deception. Its nectar odor lured moisquitos into its the coils of its fleshy tubes. When the moisquito pushes around a bend it runs into a spike of pollen pod, which jams into its eye. When it then back out of the tube, it is temporarily blinded. So it flies around until it smells a similar nectar and, again, following the trail of odor into a tube, it runs into another spike, which it willy-nilly pollinates with the pollen in its eye. "Did you come to buy orchids?" he asked.

"I came to Washingtonton for a second interview with Nosenko, tomorrow?" Angleton drove me back to the Madison hotel in his silver Mercedes. On the way back, he played a cassette of an Israel violenist he said he had had privately recorded, Evidently, Angleton's private world extentend to even his music. After several brandies in the Madison bar, he asked me what I planned to ask Nosenko.

"Any suggestions?" I replied.

He then dictated, with precision I had never heard before from anyone, thirteen questions. (see Missing Pieces) They contained names and aliases I had never heard before— Rumyanstev, General Rodin, xxxxov, Colonel Semonov and Corevan, for example, as well as KGB units like the 13th Department of the First Chief Directorate (which was rumored to handle assassinations abroad). I wote them down and asked if he could further elaborate.

"I can't do that. I would be revealing secrets. All you need to know-- and all I can tell you is that Nosenko never got his bona fides-- not while I was at the CIA." ""

::::

there are various interpretations of what Angleton was trying to get across. Obviously he was a highly intelligent, well read person capable of subtle deceit.

But assuming perhaps in this instance he is telling perhaps not who pulled the trigger but where, in which greenhouse to look? maybe just an other encryption?

Using the 'triple encryption' as analogy, at the core is the conspiracy proper. For the conspiracy (assassins) to survive undetected it assumes the guise of the illusionary foe, the orchid. The wasp, the fly, and the mosquito are the diverse conspiracy theorists and any legitimate law enforcement attempts to nail the assassin. :: " provocation is the means by which this species (orchid, (assassins)) survives". "Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the (ability to) differentiate the real from the fake". These theorists and and law enforcement agencies are then manipulated to become the third, public layer. The conspiracy theory 'is' the conspiracy.

Because I think this is how it might have worked, I keep on trying to return to the early days, before the conspiracy got a life of its own. Those first few minutes even, half hour or so when rumours and reports were flying all over the place.

So, what use is this speculation? Assuming it's correct, I reason that to decode Angleton's orchid one needs to look past the 'smokescreen' to see the assassins. In other words, the assassins are what the smokescreen isn't. The smoke screen is the CIA, the Mob, the KGB, Oswald, Castro, anti-Castro, the FBI, JBS, KKK, Oil Barons, Johnson, Republicans, Democrats etc etc. These have in common a label, a grouping. Angleton alludes to a shifting, adapting quality when he describes different species of orchid. So also the 'smokescreen' shifts to accommodate various attacks by the fly, mosquito, wasp etc.

I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular.

JohnD

Edited by John Dolva
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Well, Forum members and guests, here is another co-incidence: my friend and writing colleague Mark Howell of the Key West Citizen works at the Citizen with a young man named Mark (I think that is his first name) Angleton, and Mark Howell has determined that this young man is indeed related to James Jesus Angleton. Mark has spoken briefly to the young man who was apparently unaware of his famous relative's role in the CIA and the controversies surrounding him.

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  • 3 months later...
Angleton was right!

James Jesus Angleton's concern that the Soviets had "moles" in high stations in the U.S. intelligence community was probably correct even if he was unsuccessful in locating them. The "reforms" of the Church Committee and the CIA intself following the revlations of the CIA abuses decimated Angleton's counter-intelligence operation with tragic results. Several CIA "assets" lost their lives as a result of the betrayals of Aldrich Ames. a.j. weberman states on his web-site that had the Angleton operation been in operation, Ames would have been discovered before he had wreaked all of his damage.

And consider this example. Willliam Charles Godell was a member of one of the Pentagon's most secret offices, the Advanced Research Projects Agency. President Johnson nominated him to be the director of the National Security Agency. As director, Godell would have had extraordinary access to U.S. intelligence information. But it was discovered that Godell was probably a Soviet mole. The US was unable to indict Godell for espionage because the man to whom he was handing documents was either murdered or commited suicide. To prevent Godell from ever again holding a government job, he was instead indicted and convicted for misspending appropriated government funds.

Cleveland Cram, the son of a farmer from Waterville, was educated at St. John's University, a Benedictine in Minnesota. He obtained a master's degree in history at Harvard University before joining the United States Navy. He served in the South Pacific during the Second World War.

After the war Cram returned to Harvard for his Ph.D. He intended to become an academic but in 1949 was recruited by the Central Intelligence Agency. In 1953 he was sent to work in London where he got to know Kim Philby. In 1958 Cram returned to head office where he ran the British desk. This was followed by a second spell in England before serving as chief of station in Canada.

Cram was appointed Deputy Chief of Station in Europe. After nine years he became Chief of Station in the Western Hemisphere. He retired from the CIA in 1975. The following year he met George T. Kalaris and Ted Shackley at a cocktail party in Washington. Kalaris, who replaced James Angleton, as Chief of Counterintelligence, asked Cram if he would like to come back to work. Cram was told that the CIA wanted a study done of Angleton's reign from 1954 to 1974. "Find out what in hell happened. What were these guys doing."

Cram took the assignment and was given access to all CIA documents on covert operations. The study entitled History of the Counterintelligence Staff 1954-1974, took six years to complete. As David Wise points out in his book Molehunt (1992): "When Cram finally finished it in 1981... he had produced twelve legal-sized volumes, each three hundred to four hundred pages. Cram's approximately four-thousand-page study has never been declassified. It remains locked in the CIA's vaults."

Cram continued to do research for the CIA on counterintelligence matters. In 1993 he completed a study carried out on behalf of the CIA's Center for the Study of Intelligence (CSI). Of Moles and Molehunters: A Review of Counterintelligence Literature was declassified in 2003.

The declassified document gives us some idea of what Cram discovered about James Angleton. Cram praises certain authors for writing accurate accounts of these covert activities. He is especially complimentary about the following authors: David C. Martin (Wilderness of Mirrors), Gordon Brook-Shepherd (The Storm Birds), Andrew Boyle (The Climate of Treason), David Wise (Molehunt) and Thomas Mangold (Cold Warrior). Cram points out that these authors managed to persuade former CIA officers to tell the truth about their activities. In some cases, they were even given classified documents.

He is especially critical of the work of Edward J. Epstein (Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald and Deception: The Invisible War Between the KGB and the CIA). Cram makes it clear that Epstein, working with James Angleton, was part of a disinformation campaign. Cram writes: “Legend… gave Angleton and his supporters an advantage by putting their argument adroitly – if dishonestly – before the public first. Not until David Martin responded with Wilderness of Mirrors was an opposing view presented coherently.”

Cram is particularly complimentary about the Wilderness of Mirrors. He points out that Martin does “not name his sources, footnote the book, or provide a bibliography and other academic paraphernalia” but is invariably accurate about what he says about the CIA. Cram adds that luckily Martin’s book did not sell well and is now a collectors item. However, it was republished by the Lyons Press in 2003. I have got a copy and it is indeed a fantastic book. It includes this passage which I think is highly significant in terms of the investigation of the JFK assassination.

How could the KGB even dream of pulling off so convoluted a scheme? "Helms and I have talked about this many times," a high-ranking officer said. "I do not believe that any son of a bitch sitting in Moscow could have any conception that he could dispatch Golitsin here and disrupt the Allied intelligence services to the extent he did. Nobody could have expected Angleton to buy it, lock, stock, and barrel." And no one sitting in Moscow could have predicted with any certainty that Nosenko would be fingered as a plant and thereby build up Golitsin. Furthermore, it seemed incredible that the KGB would entrust to an agent whose mission was to be discovered as a fraud the message that the Soviet Union had not had a hand in Kennedy's death. Such a plot could only fuel suspicions of Soviet complicity. It was true that Angleton's counterintelligence staff, although convinced that Nosenko was lying, had concluded that there was no evidence to support the contention that Oswald was working for the Russians when he killed Kennedy. But surely the KGB could not control the workings of the counterintelligence staff with so fine a hand.

Could not - unless they already had a man inside the counterintelligence staff who could influence the handling of the case. Who controlled the counterintelligence staff? Who had directed the handling of both Golitsin and Nosenko, championing Golitsin, denigrating Nosenko, yet stopping short of the conclusion that the KGB had ordered Kennedy shot? Who but James Jesus Angleton?

Such a case had indeed been outlined. It had the attraction that all conspiracy theories possess. It provided a cause commensurate with the effect. "The effect of Golitsin was horrendous," a chief of the Soviet Bloc Division said, "the greatest disaster to Western security that happened in twenty years." Now, for the first time, the possibility arose that the entire fiasco was not a self-inflicted wound but the work of an infernal Soviet machination. Who better to cast as the villain than Angleton himself? Two men who had headed the Soviet Bloc Division at different times, neither aware that an effort had been made to develop a case against Angleton, would make the same point in almost identical terms. "If I were to pick a Soviet agent at the Agency, it would be Angleton for all the harm he's done," said one. "There is just as much reason to say Angleton could be the guy because he has done so much to be destructive," said the other. Popov, Goleniewski, Penkovsky, Golitsin, Nosenko. Everything that had gone wrong could plausibly be traced to Angleton. Complexity became simplicity. With Angleton as the mole, the KGB could dispatch any number of false defectors confident that they would be handled according to plan. "He is the guy who is perfectly placed," one of the Soviet Bloc chiefs said. "He's even better to have than the Director." The Soviets had penetrated the counterintelligence operations of the British with Kim Philby and of the Germans with Heinz Felfe. Why not the CIA with Angleton?

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Angleton was right!

James Jesus Angleton's concern that the Soviets had "moles" in high stations in the U.S. intelligence community was probably correct even if he was unsuccessful in locating them. The "reforms" of the Church Committee and the CIA intself following the revlations of the CIA abuses decimated Angleton's counter-intelligence operation with tragic results. Several CIA "assets" lost their lives as a result of the betrayals of Aldrich Ames. a.j. weberman states on his web-site that had the Angleton operation been in operation, Ames would have been discovered before he had wreaked all of his damage.

And consider this example. Willliam Charles Godell was a member of one of the Pentagon's most secret offices, the Advanced Research Projects Agency. President Johnson nominated him to be the director of the National Security Agency. As director, Godell would have had extraordinary access to U.S. intelligence information. But it was discovered that Godell was probably a Soviet mole. The US was unable to indict Godell for espionage because the man to whom he was handing documents was either murdered or commited suicide. To prevent Godell from ever again holding a government job, he was instead indicted and convicted for misspending appropriated government funds.

Cleveland Cram, the son of a farmer from Waterville, was educated at St. John's University, a Benedictine in Minnesota. He obtained a master's degree in history at Harvard University before joining the United States Navy. He served in the South Pacific during the Second World War.

After the war Cram returned to Harvard for his Ph.D. He intended to become an academic but in 1949 was recruited by the Central Intelligence Agency. In 1953 he was sent to work in London where he got to know Kim Philby. In 1958 Cram returned to head office where he ran the British desk. This was followed by a second spell in England before serving as chief of station in Canada.

Cram was appointed Deputy Chief of Station in Europe. After nine years he became Chief of Station in the Western Hemisphere. He retired from the CIA in 1975. The following year he met George T. Kalaris and Ted Shackley at a cocktail party in Washington. Kalaris, who replaced James Angleton, as Chief of Counterintelligence, asked Cram if he would like to come back to work. Cram was told that the CIA wanted a study done of Angleton's reign from 1954 to 1974. "Find out what in hell happened. What were these guys doing."

Cram took the assignment and was given access to all CIA documents on covert operations. The study entitled History of the Counterintelligence Staff 1954-1974, took six years to complete. As David Wise points out in his book Molehunt (1992): "When Cram finally finished it in 1981... he had produced twelve legal-sized volumes, each three hundred to four hundred pages. Cram's approximately four-thousand-page study has never been declassified. It remains locked in the CIA's vaults."

Cram continued to do research for the CIA on counterintelligence matters. In 1993 he completed a study carried out on behalf of the CIA's Center for the Study of Intelligence (CSI). Of Moles and Molehunters: A Review of Counterintelligence Literature was declassified in 2003.

The declassified document gives us some idea of what Cram discovered about James Angleton. Cram praises certain authors for writing accurate accounts of these covert activities. He is especially complimentary about the following authors: David C. Martin (Wilderness of Mirrors), Gordon Brook-Shepherd (The Storm Birds), Andrew Boyle (The Climate of Treason), David Wise (Molehunt) and Thomas Mangold (Cold Warrior). Cram points out that these authors managed to persuade former CIA officers to tell the truth about their activities. In some cases, they were even given classified documents.

He is especially critical of the work of Edward J. Epstein (Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald and Deception: The Invisible War Between the KGB and the CIA). Cram makes it clear that Epstein, working with James Angleton, was part of a disinformation campaign. Cram writes: “Legend… gave Angleton and his supporters an advantage by putting their argument adroitly – if dishonestly – before the public first. Not until David Martin responded with Wilderness of Mirrors was an opposing view presented coherently.”

Cram is particularly complimentary about the Wilderness of Mirrors. He points out that Martin does “not name his sources, footnote the book, or provide a bibliography and other academic paraphernalia” but is invariably accurate about what he says about the CIA. Cram adds that luckily Martin’s book did not sell well and is now a collectors item. However, it was republished by the Lyons Press in 2003. I have got a copy and it is indeed a fantastic book. It includes this passage which I think is highly significant in terms of the investigation of the JFK assassination.

How could the KGB even dream of pulling off so convoluted a scheme? "Helms and I have talked about this many times," a high-ranking officer said. "I do not believe that any son of a bitch sitting in Moscow could have any conception that he could dispatch Golitsin here and disrupt the Allied intelligence services to the extent he did. Nobody could have expected Angleton to buy it, lock, stock, and barrel." And no one sitting in Moscow could have predicted with any certainty that Nosenko would be fingered as a plant and thereby build up Golitsin. Furthermore, it seemed incredible that the KGB would entrust to an agent whose mission was to be discovered as a fraud the message that the Soviet Union had not had a hand in Kennedy's death. Such a plot could only fuel suspicions of Soviet complicity. It was true that Angleton's counterintelligence staff, although convinced that Nosenko was lying, had concluded that there was no evidence to support the contention that Oswald was working for the Russians when he killed Kennedy. But surely the KGB could not control the workings of the counterintelligence staff with so fine a hand.

Could not - unless they already had a man inside the counterintelligence staff who could influence the handling of the case. Who controlled the counterintelligence staff? Who had directed the handling of both Golitsin and Nosenko, championing Golitsin, denigrating Nosenko, yet stopping short of the conclusion that the KGB had ordered Kennedy shot? Who but James Jesus Angleton?

Such a case had indeed been outlined. It had the attraction that all conspiracy theories possess. It provided a cause commensurate with the effect. "The effect of Golitsin was horrendous," a chief of the Soviet Bloc Division said, "the greatest disaster to Western security that happened in twenty years." Now, for the first time, the possibility arose that the entire fiasco was not a self-inflicted wound but the work of an infernal Soviet machination. Who better to cast as the villain than Angleton himself? Two men who had headed the Soviet Bloc Division at different times, neither aware that an effort had been made to develop a case against Angleton, would make the same point in almost identical terms. "If I were to pick a Soviet agent at the Agency, it would be Angleton for all the harm he's done," said one. "There is just as much reason to say Angleton could be the guy because he has done so much to be destructive," said the other. Popov, Goleniewski, Penkovsky, Golitsin, Nosenko. Everything that had gone wrong could plausibly be traced to Angleton. Complexity became simplicity. With Angleton as the mole, the KGB could dispatch any number of false defectors confident that they would be handled according to plan. "He is the guy who is perfectly placed," one of the Soviet Bloc chiefs said. "He's even better to have than the Director." The Soviets had penetrated the counterintelligence operations of the British with Kim Philby and of the Germans with Heinz Felfe. Why not the CIA with Angleton?

------------------------------

John:

When my brother read some of this same crap, he advised me to "distance myself" from JJA. I reminded him that during my visit with Vic Marchetti during 1963, I had queried Vic as to who was the "7th Foor" Soviet Mole ??"!! And I specifically inquired as to the whether his "suicided" character in his novel "The Rope Dancer" was indeed Frank Wisner, Sr. -- who had in fact been murdered. Vic was very reluctant to go into any of his suspicions reference moles or murder/suicides. That same evening I went toTyson's Corner for a chat with JJA. He wanted me to go back and press Vic for answers, and reminded me that Vic was involved in even further revelations about such matters while writing a book with another expert. I responded that this was above my [none] "page grade", and I knew that Vic wasn't about to delve further into said matters.

JJA knew that I had flown with Cram's brother in the Marines, and stated that he had spent time with Jack and heard some worrisome tales from him. I responded as to who the hell was Cram's brother, and why the hell would I approach a senior Marine officer on such matters. "...Besides Sir...I understand that 'Internal Affairs" type folks are always 'worrisome'...to the point of paranoia...and that is why they are hated...especially in police departments..??!!" He practically threw me out of the house.

Later I learned that while Cleveland was COS [or interning as COS] in Ottawa, he had access to the Espaillat, Johnson, RCMP, FBI Legat files which showed that this clique in Montreal [1962-1963] had some kind of interest in Dallas during late 1963. Much later JJA said that this was exactly why he had asked me to speak with Cram's brother. By then I had some [very few] pieces of that puzzle, and I told him that I wasn't about to fool around with a "cabal" which included the terrorist FLQ "Felquiste", the R.I.N., the OAS "secret Army", Skorzeny, Gehlen, O.D.E.S.S.A., and the "Union Corse" -- in fact there was no "pay-grade level" that would ever get into that kind of crap.

Of course, and despite Vic Marchetti having written the first geniune expose of the CIA, and moreover, that his "pre-censorship" case went to the U.S. Supreme Court -- he is now labled an anti-Semite due to some inadvertant scribblings, but primarily as a result of his affiliation with Willis Carto.

Talk about McCarthy-ism arising ONLY from the right-wing !! GIVE-ME-A-BREAK !!

Chairs,

GPH

__________________________

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Gerry, maybe I missed this from an earlier post, but I believe it would be helpful if you gave us a brief outline of your dealings with Angleton. At what point did you first meet him? What kind of information did you give him? Did you deal directly with him? Were you paid? How were you paid? Did you also engage in any activities on his behalf? Any agent/provacateur type work? When did your dealings with him cease?

I find his role in history quite fascinating.

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When my brother read some of this same crap, he advised me to "distance myself" from JJA. I reminded him that during my visit with Vic Marchetti during 1963, I had queried Vic as to who was the "7th Foor" Soviet Mole ??"!! And I specifically inquired as to the whether his "suicided" character in his novel "The Rope Dancer" was indeed Frank Wisner, Sr. -- who had in fact been murdered. Vic was very reluctant to go into any of his suspicions reference moles or murder/suicides. That same evening I went toTyson's Corner for a chat with JJA. He wanted me to go back and press Vic for answers, and reminded me that Vic was involved in even further revelations about such matters while writing a book with another expert. I responded that this was above my [none] "page grade", and I knew that Vic wasn't about to delve further into said matters.

Have you any evidence that Frank Wisner was murdered? As you probably know, he died in the same way as Phil Graham. Both Wisner and Graham were key figures in Operation Mockingbird who were suffering from depression at the time of their deaths. Both were former idealists who felt very guilty about the deaths they had caused by their propaganda campaigns. This included the CIA encouragement of the Hungarian Uprising in 1956. Both were heavy drinkers who were talking too much about their covert activities. One thing is clear, they were both dangerous men when they found themselves on their own, in their holiday homes, with a loaded shotgun at their side.

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Namebase entry for James Jesus Angleton:

http://www.namebase.org/main2/James-Jesus-Angleton.html

Aarons,M. Loftus,J. Unholy Trinity. 1992 (38-9, 235-7, 259-60, 270, 279)

Agee,P. On the Run. 1987 (311)

American Security Council. Strategy Board. 1984

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When my brother read some of this same crap, he advised me to "distance myself" from JJA. I reminded him that during my visit with Vic Marchetti during 1963, I had queried Vic as to who was the "7th Foor" Soviet Mole ??"!! And I specifically inquired as to the whether his "suicided" character in his novel "The Rope Dancer" was indeed Frank Wisner, Sr. -- who had in fact been murdered. Vic was very reluctant to go into any of his suspicions reference moles or murder/suicides. That same evening I went toTyson's Corner for a chat with JJA. He wanted me to go back and press Vic for answers, and reminded me that Vic was involved in even further revelations about such matters while writing a book with another expert. I responded that this was above my [none] "page grade", and I knew that Vic wasn't about to delve further into said matters.

Have you any evidence that Frank Wisner was murdered? As you probably know, he died in the same way as Phil Graham. Both Wisner and Graham were key figures in Operation Mockingbird who were suffering from depression at the time of their deaths. Both were former idealists who felt very guilty about the deaths they had caused by their propaganda campaigns. This included the CIA encouragement of the Hungarian Uprising in 1956. Both were heavy drinkers who were talking too much about their covert activities. One thing is clear, they were both dangerous men when they found themselves on their own, in their holiday homes, with a loaded shotgun at their side.

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Suffice it to say that I visited Frank, Sr. while he was in the hospital near Baltimore during 1958, and he wasn't there due to any "depression" !!

Frank, Jr. has left the State Dept. and is in the private sector now, has looked into some of the facts, but I'm not about to cause the family further grief by going into any of the aspects of his, Phil's, or others who were "suicided" -- and BTW: the "usual suspects" were not CIA moles, but illegal G.R.U. operators roaming CONUS at will !!

Chairs,

GPH

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