How good were the shooters in DP?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Since no one to date has caught and/or called the obvious presented discrepancy, it serves to indicate exactly why few persons either understand or appreciate exactly how simple the shots fired in Dealy Plaza were.

Just as the WC went out of their way to obscure and confuse the survey data, and hopefully insure that no one would ever obtain the evidence to demonstrate this, I have repeatedly posting information, that although correct, is correct for application ONLY with the appropriate survey.

Z313

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0055a.htm

Z-313 Station number:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

CE884 demonstrates the survey station number for JFK at Z313 as accurately determined by the WC.

This stationing is 4+65.3

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A complete review of this work by the SS for their re-enactment will demonstrate that the 4 feet from station 5+00 (4+96 +/-) is the station number for the rear of the bumper of the assassination re-enactment vehicle.

NOT the station number for the position of JFK at the time of the third/last/final shot.

The referenced 31 feet represents the given distance between the impact point for Z-313 which is quite accurate, and the rear bumper of the SS re-enactment vehicle at the time of their work.

We have a few more feet to go to get to the actual position of JFK at the time of the third/last/final shot.

From this, one can see how easily it is to confuse those who do not read and evaluate each and every item.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

How good were the shooters is the questions.

Let's look at it from a shooters perspective.

The shooters were firing on a moving target at varying speeds at varying angles of lateral and horizontal placement. The shooters had to get off their shots and escape undetected (and I will not even address the issue of suppressors). The shooters had to cause as little damage outside of the target as possible (only JFK and Connally were hit).

Were these professionals? You bet your ass. When I term "professionals", I am not referring to Italian or French mobsters. I am talking about professionals in terms of military snipers. I have posted time and again on this here and at Lancer. I have introduced the term "Canyon Shoot" to those outside the military sniper realm. I have talked about gravitational pull issues, panning and recovery of sight alignment after the shot.

I see no need to go into again as the challenges I have received have been from those who have shot stationary fixed targets on a controlled range. Apples and oranges.

Al

Al,

Much appreciated. A concise evaluation of how good the shooters needed to be (from someone with knowledge in this area) was what I was trying to obtain. (although the opinions expressed by others have also been helpful).

So despite the fact that the organisers made every effort to accomodate the shooters, the shooters were required to be among the very best in their field. Probably obvious in light of the importance of their job, but I was curious about this aspect of the assassination. Thanks again.

Might I recommend: ayoob@attglobal.net

Or else search: Massad Ayoob

or else: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/biblio.html

Ayoob, Massad

The Ayoob Files - The JFK Assassination: A Shooter's Eye View

in: American Handgunner, March/April 1993

Gun experts examine a number of issues related to Oswald's MC rifle, his shooting skill, ballistics, and the reaction of Kennedy to the shots. The single-assassin theory is found to be well within the limits of plausibility.

Perhaps Mr. Simkin will approach Massad and see if he will discuss the accuracy; integrity; capability; reliability; operating speed; etc; of the Carcano Rifle.

Then again, Mr. Massad Ayoob may just tell everyone to read and review what he wrote for American Handgunner some 13 years ago.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mr. HUDSON: I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - And if we assume that he was shot twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - He was hit again after he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes sir; I do

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MuchMore Frame# 55

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0050a.htm

Well, well, well! If it isn't Mr. Hudson standing on the steps in the background, and this is most definitely AFTER the Z313 shot to the head.

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you show me just where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was right along - you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I was standing on this - that would be somewhere around along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER - Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were standing so that we can have that.

Mr. HUDSON - Right along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER - It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you saw - tell me what happened to the best of your recollection.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually Mr. Hudson, the WC was fully aware of your position, since they had Mr. West Survey it in and mark it on the Mid-way landing of the steps, where you were standing when you observed the Z313 head shot to JFK.

And although Mr. West was not fully aware of exactly why he was directed to establish "PT-A" as a survey control location, he nevertheless did, and "PT-A" and your (Mr. Hudson's) position are the exact same position.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, Mr. Hudson! Your testimony was not taken by the WC until July 22, 1964, at which time it was taken by Mr. Wesley Liebeler, at the Dallas Post Office.

However, the WC survey work was done on/about June 24/25, in which your position on the sidewalk/steps was accurately surveyed in and utilized in their survey work.

One would find it most curious that the WC would, on July 22, 1964, ask questions as to where you were located, when in fact, virtually a month prior to that date they had surveyed in your exact position.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[David G. Healy]

How good were the shooters is the questions.

Let's look at it from a shooters perspective.

The shooters were firing on a moving target at varying speeds at varying angles of lateral and horizontal placement. The shooters had to get off their shots and escape undetected (and I will not even address the issue of suppressors). The shooters had to cause as little damage outside of the target as possible (only JFK and Connally were hit).

Were these professionals? You bet your ass. When I term "professionals", I am not referring to Italian or French mobsters. I am talking about professionals in terms of military snipers. I have posted time and again on this here and at Lancer. I have introduced the term "Canyon Shoot" to those outside the military sniper realm. I have talked about gravitational pull issues, panning and recovery of sight alignment after the shot.

I see no need to go into again as the challenges I have received have been from those who have shot stationary fixed targets on a controlled range. Apples and oranges.

Al

Al,

Much appreciated. A concise evaluation of how good the shooters needed to be (from someone with knowledge in this area) was what I was trying to obtain. (although the opinions expressed by others have also been helpful).

So despite the fact that the organisers made every effort to accomodate the shooters, the shooters were required to be among the very best in their field. Probably obvious in light of the importance of their job, but I was curious about this aspect of the assassination. Thanks again.

Might I recommend: ayoob@attglobal.net

Or else search: Massad Ayoob

or else: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/biblio.html

Ayoob, Massad

The Ayoob Files - The JFK Assassination: A Shooter's Eye View

in: American Handgunner, March/April 1993

Gun experts examine a number of issues related to Oswald's MC rifle, his shooting skill, ballistics, and the reaction of Kennedy to the shots. The single-assassin theory is found to be well within the limits of plausibility.

Perhaps Mr. Simkin will approach Massad and see if he will discuss the accuracy; integrity; capability; reliability; operating speed; etc; of the Carcano Rifle.

Then again, Mr. Massad Ayoob may just tell everyone to read and review what he wrote for American Handgunner some 13 years ago.

Tom,

It appears Massad Ayoob has competition out there --

Contrary to some who opine hereabouts on my leanings in this case, I could careless if Oswald (the one arrested in Dallas) is/was invovled as a SHOOTER or, a unwittingly accomplice...

If, as the WCR states, Oswald missed the *first* shot - how'd he deal with the immediate 'unknowables'? IMHO, from what I've read, he just doesn't have the right stuff...

David

Edited February 13, 2006 by David G. Healy

[Thomas H. Purvis]

How good were the shooters is the questions.

Let's look at it from a shooters perspective.

The shooters were firing on a moving target at varying speeds at varying angles of lateral and horizontal placement. The shooters had to get off their shots and escape undetected (and I will not even address the issue of suppressors). The shooters had to cause as little damage outside of the target as possible (only JFK and Connally were hit).

Were these professionals? You bet your ass. When I term "professionals", I am not referring to Italian or French mobsters. I am talking about professionals in terms of military snipers. I have posted time and again on this here and at Lancer. I have introduced the term "Canyon Shoot" to those outside the military sniper realm. I have talked about gravitational pull issues, panning and recovery of sight alignment after the shot.

I see no need to go into again as the challenges I have received have been from those who have shot stationary fixed targets on a controlled range. Apples and oranges.

Al

Al,

Much appreciated. A concise evaluation of how good the shooters needed to be (from someone with knowledge in this area) was what I was trying to obtain. (although the opinions expressed by others have also been helpful).

So despite the fact that the organisers made every effort to accomodate the shooters, the shooters were required to be among the very best in their field. Probably obvious in light of the importance of their job, but I was curious about this aspect of the assassination. Thanks again.

Might I recommend: ayoob@attglobal.net

Or else search: Massad Ayoob

or else: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/biblio.html

Ayoob, Massad

The Ayoob Files - The JFK Assassination: A Shooter's Eye View

in: American Handgunner, March/April 1993

Gun experts examine a number of issues related to Oswald's MC rifle, his shooting skill, ballistics, and the reaction of Kennedy to the shots. The single-assassin theory is found to be well within the limits of plausibility.

Perhaps Mr. Simkin will approach Massad and see if he will discuss the accuracy; integrity; capability; reliability; operating speed; etc; of the Carcano Rifle.

Then again, Mr. Massad Ayoob may just tell everyone to read and review what he wrote for American Handgunner some 13 years ago.

Tom,

It appears Massad Ayoob has competition out there --

Contrary to some who opine hereabouts on my leanings in this case, I could careless if Oswald (the one arrested in Dallas) is/was invovled as a SHOOTER or, a unwittingly accomplice...

If, as the WCR states, Oswald missed the *first* shot - how'd he deal with the immediate 'unknowables'? IMHO, from what I've read, he just doesn't have the right stuff...

David

The WC is worse about talking in parables than even I.

Their "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" goes around in circles as to which shot "MAY" have missed.

All evidence, as well as virtually all witness testimony defines that the first shot hit JFK.

Even the handwritten notes of one of the SS Agents in the follow up vehicle reported having seen this strike to the back of JFK, when in fact no one even knew of it's existence until the autopsy.

Therefore, there was no first shot miss.

There was nothing difficult as regards the shots, considering the 5.8 to 5.9 second delay from the first to the second shot.

Almost time to light one up and take a drag prior to shooting.

The last shot, was the fast one and was an obviously fast and off the cuff shot that still hit it's mark.

Until the elapsed time is actually finalized for the vehicle speed between Z-313 to impact down in front of Mr. Altgens, the true speed of this shot will never be known.

Nevertheless, the great majority of witnesses describe the rapid nature of the last two shots, which also aids in determination that there was obviously not the delay between #2/Z313 and #3/Altgens location, as there was between #1/at the road sign, and #2/Z313.

Lastly, only the WC came up with the scenario of the first shot even being mentioned as having been missed.

And even they did not come up with it until the last minute.

Time/Life accurately determined to location at the time of this shot, as did the SS and the FBI.

And, even the first generation of the WC survey plat still had this shot, impact location, and downward angle drawn in on it.

It was the second and final WC drawing in which the evidence of this shot was deleted that caused it too to cease to exist.

[Duke Lane]

First Rule: Approach everything stated by anyone with the "DOUBTING THOMAS" attitude.

One is far less likely to end up looking completely stupid if this approach is taken.

Secondly, despite what some have claimed, Mr. West told me personally that neither he nor his survey crew personnel were allowed access to the films in his work on plotting the positions of JFK/and or the Presidential Limousine. (during any of the multiple survey's)

The "GENESIS" of the survey data is not that complicated to understand when in possession of all of the survey notes as well as the actual survey plats.

1. Time/Life on 11/25/63 (with their original information) managed to accurately plat the impact point of the first shot as well as the Z312/313 headshot.

2. On 12/5/63, the US Secret Service completed their work utililzing the first generation copy of the film which they were in possession of.

In this work, there are the following variations from the Time/Life work:

A. The US Secret Service, as indicated by their notes as given on CE 875, utilized the rear bumper of the re-enactment limousine as their reference point, and the X on the map as well as stationing number are in fact not the exact position of JFK at point of impact.

As example, the X on the SS 12/5/63 survey plat for the second shot, is much closer to Mary Moorman & Jean Hill (&yellow stripe) than was the position of JFK at point of impact for this shot.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

B. All of the work done for Time/Life---The SS-----& the FBI Re-enactment in January 1964, utilized downward firing angles from the TSDB window to the exact point on the street, not the actual elevation of JFK's head.

C. The WC came along, and even though three separate survey re-enactments prior to their work had relatively accurately placed the impact point of the first shot, determined that this position could not be determined. Thus, this point was deleted.

D. The WC decided, against a large amount of evidence otherwise, that the Z312/313 headshot was the LAST shot fired in the sequence.

This BS scenario is in direct contradiction to considerable eyewitness testimony as to the second shot strike to JFK's head as well as the large amount of testimony which indicates the "longer delay" from the first to second shot, as opposed to that delay between the second and third shot.

E. Therefore, the WC decided that there was now nothing relevant in the Z-film past the Z334 point, which is only 21 Z-frames/1.15 seconds past impact of the known headshot. Which by the way is directly contradicted by their multiple pages of "circular reasoning" as regards THE SHOT THAT MISSED.

F. Therefore, impact point for shot# 3 was deleted from existence from survey work, along with shot# 1.

And thereafter, not unlike my friends/comrads/associates who were members of the Son Tay Raid,

Kept in Dark and Fed only Horse xxxx!----------------------aka the mushroom syndrone

Tom

So, then, you're suggesting that the acoustics studies are invalid, and that "earwitness" testimony and "courtroom gymnastics" are preferable to them?

From a purely hypothetical, practical standpoint, if you have just ONE shooter with a scope on his rifle, we'd have to suspect that he'd seen the blood fly at Z312/313, why would he shoot AGAIN four seconds later? I can understand TWO shooters doing this (maybe), but not ONE. Makes no sense.

Also with respect to other points of impact, several witnesses testified to seeing things hit the street, sparks flying, etc. You can't discount those simply on account of the fact that nobody took photos of where they were or counted them among the "missed" shots. You've also got to deal with the windshield crack/hole and the dent in the window frame, and the "Tague shot" too.

Or was all that what that later, post-313 shot was for?

[Chuck Robbins]

"We have a few more feet to go to get to the actual position of JFK at the time of the third/last/final shot."

Would that few more feet place JFK very near to the steps that lead up to the knoll area?

There was a man, in a red shirt, standing there who suddenly extended both of his hands, while bending his knees. Just as both of his arms are extended, and pointing towards the Limo, there is a small white flash seen for one frame.

I will try to find the frame and post it for your viewing and analysis.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Also with respect to other points of impact, several witnesses testified to seeing things hit the street, sparks flying, etc. You can't discount those simply on account of the fact that nobody took photos of where they were or counted them among the "missed" shots. You've also got to deal with the windshield crack/hole and the dent in the window frame, and the "Tague shot" too.

Or was all that what that later, post-313 shot was for?

These, IMO, are the least of the "missed shots"

Strike to sidewalk, north side Elm St

Strike to Elm St pavement.

Strike to concrete, by manhole cover.

Less sure about these.

Multiple furrows in the grass.

Hole in windshield.

Dent in chrome by windshield.

Damage to Stemmons sign. FWIW, Steve.

[Tim Gratz]

They were better than Cheney.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

First Rule: Approach everything stated by anyone with the "DOUBTING THOMAS" attitude.

One is far less likely to end up looking completely stupid if this approach is taken.

Secondly, despite what some have claimed, Mr. West told me personally that neither he nor his survey crew personnel were allowed access to the films in his work on plotting the positions of JFK/and or the Presidential Limousine. (during any of the multiple survey's)

The "GENESIS" of the survey data is not that complicated to understand when in possession of all of the survey notes as well as the actual survey plats.

1. Time/Life on 11/25/63 (with their original information) managed to accurately plat the impact point of the first shot as well as the Z312/313 headshot.

2. On 12/5/63, the US Secret Service completed their work utililzing the first generation copy of the film which they were in possession of.

In this work, there are the following variations from the Time/Life work:

A. The US Secret Service, as indicated by their notes as given on CE 875, utilized the rear bumper of the re-enactment limousine as their reference point, and the X on the map as well as stationing number are in fact not the exact position of JFK at point of impact.

As example, the X on the SS 12/5/63 survey plat for the second shot, is much closer to Mary Moorman & Jean Hill (&yellow stripe) than was the position of JFK at point of impact for this shot.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

B. All of the work done for Time/Life---The SS-----& the FBI Re-enactment in January 1964, utilized downward firing angles from the TSDB window to the exact point on the street, not the actual elevation of JFK's head.

C. The WC came along, and even though three separate survey re-enactments prior to their work had relatively accurately placed the impact point of the first shot, determined that this position could not be determined. Thus, this point was deleted.

D. The WC decided, against a large amount of evidence otherwise, that the Z312/313 headshot was the LAST shot fired in the sequence.

This BS scenario is in direct contradiction to considerable eyewitness testimony as to the second shot strike to JFK's head as well as the large amount of testimony which indicates the "longer delay" from the first to second shot, as opposed to that delay between the second and third shot.

E. Therefore, the WC decided that there was now nothing relevant in the Z-film past the Z334 point, which is only 21 Z-frames/1.15 seconds past impact of the known headshot. Which by the way is directly contradicted by their multiple pages of "circular reasoning" as regards THE SHOT THAT MISSED.

F. Therefore, impact point for shot# 3 was deleted from existence from survey work, along with shot# 1.

And thereafter, not unlike my friends/comrads/associates who were members of the Son Tay Raid,

Kept in Dark and Fed only Horse xxxx!----------------------aka the mushroom syndrone

Tom

So, then, you're suggesting that the acoustics studies are invalid, and that "earwitness" testimony and "courtroom gymnastics" are preferable to them?

From a purely hypothetical, practical standpoint, if you have just ONE shooter with a scope on his rifle, we'd have to suspect that he'd seen the blood fly at Z312/313, why would he shoot AGAIN four seconds later? I can understand TWO shooters doing this (maybe), but not ONE. Makes no sense.

Also with respect to other points of impact, several witnesses testified to seeing things hit the street, sparks flying, etc. You can't discount those simply on account of the fact that nobody took photos of where they were or counted them among the "missed" shots. You've also got to deal with the windshield crack/hole and the dent in the window frame, and the "Tague shot" too.

Or was all that what that later, post-313 shot was for?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, then, you're suggesting that the acoustics studies are invalid, and that "earwitness" testimony and "courtroom gymnastics" are preferable to them?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, it is inconceiveable to me as to why anyone would fall for the "acoustics studies" when so many valid earwitnesses have stated in effect: Bang--------------------------------Bang----Bang!

Had those monies which were expended on the acoustics studies, which were BS anyway, been expended on searching out the many lies and misrepsentations of fact as regards the physical evidence, then we would most probably have the answer to this.

But then again, the Garrison fiasco, followed by Oliver Stone's JFK, have continued to lead deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole.

The acoustics study literally "broke" the HSCA bank, and when the monies were gone, so was the HSCA.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only "courtroom gymnastics" are those as performed by the Circus Act of Specter & Company, in taking the simple facts and so confusing them that it has created what we have today.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a purely hypothetical, practical standpoint, if you have just ONE shooter with a scope on his rifle, we'd have to suspect that he'd seen the blood fly at Z312/313

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With rifle recoil, and subsequent bolt operation/rechambering of rounds, then reacquisiton of target, it is unlikely that LHO/whoever the shooter was, would have observed the strike.

Long range type sniper shots in which one fully expects a first round hit, with longer time-of-flight of projectile, often gives one this this advantage.

Short range shots, at moving targets do not.

Add to this the fact that JFK was in effect still sitting up and only bent forward initially after the Z313 head shot and from the rear, one would possibly think that he was still able to sit almost erect---therefore possibly only limited injury.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why would he shoot AGAIN four seconds later

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was no "four seconds later". The third/last/final shot, which occurred when the Presidential Limousine was almost at the James Altgens position was fired virtually as fast as the rifle could be operated after the impact of the second/Z313 head impact shot.

I do seem to recall that the consensus of witnesses was: BANG-------------------------------Bang--Bang!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also with respect to other points of impact, several witnesses testified to seeing things hit the street, sparks flying, etc. You can't discount those simply on account of the fact that nobody took photos of where they were or counted them among the "missed" shots

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Try making sparks with a copper jacketed/lead core bullet, shooting anything! Including steel.

Me thinks someone has been watching to many TV and Movies where all bullets that strike something create sparks.

Even a steel jacket and/or armor piercing round is highly unlikely to create "SPARKS" when striking asphalt.

Unless of course it happens to impact one of the pieces of gravel aggregate which is within the asphalt.

Therefore the "Spark" theory is usually only followed by those who know no better.

The streets were searched for impact points. And photo's were taken by numerous persons of all types of "suspicioned" strikes on anything. Including multiple and various photo's of the concrete curb inlet & cast iron cover, located far down Elm St.

There is not now, nor has there ever been any piece of physical evidence of any other bullet/fragment strike outside the vicinity of the Presidential Limousine, other than the Tague/curb strike.

There is nevertheless ample evidence to demonstrate that relatively reliable witnesses saw SOMETHING strike the street.

Which I also fully believe and accept as true.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You've also got to deal with the windshield crack/hole and the dent in the window frame, and the "Tague shot" too.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whereas I long ago posted a drawing which demonstrated the Z313 head strike and subsequent forward movement of fragments from this projectile, I do not desire to dig it out.

I would hope that anyone with the least bit of research capability would recognize that:

1. Only one bullet fragmented.

2. Therefore, all damage to the windshield and/or molding could have been created only by FRAGMENTS.

3. Since a lead smear was taken from the INSIDE area of the cracked windshield---does not even take much of a smart person to resolve which side the strike came from.

4. The dent in the molding, although never absolutely confirmed, was as indicated, most probably created at the same time as the crack in the windshield.

This would of course require a projectile/fragment which was moving from the rear forward.----Convenient that it also matches all other evidence.

The damage to the molding, being only a smooth countour indentation, was created by something of extremely limited velocity. Such as FRAGMENT.

5. Since there was only one bullet that fragmented, and the smear on the curb damage at the location of the Tague strike was resolved to be lead, in itself, this pretty well tells where this projectile/fragment came from.

And in event one does not think that this was created by a fragment of limited velocity, then perhaps they need to go shoot a few concrete curbs with various calibers of high powered rifles and various types of ammo and thereafter compare them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In all regards, one should place into perspective that neither you; I; or the entire contingent who post on this forum are either smarter; more qualified; and/or have the capabilities (scientific or otherwise) which the FBI and/or US Secret Service had at their disposal to resolve the issues of the assassination.

At most, we may make an attempt to evaluate those items which the WC finally allowed us access to, and thereafter either validate and/or invalidate the information.

If the information is proven to be invalid, then there is an absolute reasoning behind why the WC/FBI has lead us down such a trail.

That the WC is an intentional lie (which it most assuredly is) does not eliminate the potential for reasonings other than the tiresome and totally unsubstantiated "MULTIPLE ASSASSIN" and/or "THE US GOVERNMENT KILLED JFK" scenario's.

I would have thought, as well as hoped, that there were now a few more "original thinkers" out there who by now would have also recognized that the WHY? has many many distinctive and separate arrows which extend from it's Flow-Chart.

Guess that is why we are frequently referred to as "SHEEPLES"!

Tom

P.S.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

"We have a few more feet to go to get to the actual position of JFK at the time of the third/last/final shot."

Would that few more feet place JFK very near to the steps that lead up to the knoll area?

There was a man, in a red shirt, standing there who suddenly extended both of his hands, while bending his knees. Just as both of his arms are extended, and pointing towards the Limo, there is a small white flash seen for one frame.

I will try to find the frame and post it for your viewing and analysis.

Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight down to Elm there,

Mr. LIEBELER - Where are the steps?

Mr. HUDSON - Here they are - right there.

Mr. LIEBELER - It is the series of steps that runs right down the street there?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you show me just where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was right along - you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I was standing on this - that would be somewhere around along about there

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Might I recommend (at this point) that you just show him Muchmore#42 and/or Muchmore#55 and ask which of these persons standing on the steps he is!

Or else go to Mr. West Survey data and thereafter look up where the WC had Mr. West establish "Pt A", which is also on the same landing of the steps on which Mr. Hudson was standing.

Or, one could just as easily ask Mr. Shaneyfelt, who was also somewhat involved in recreation of the Muchmore/JFK/steps(landing) position establishment:

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. I analyzed a film that was 8-mm. motion picture film taken by Mrs. Mary Muchmore of Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. The upper left-hand photograph is the photograph from the taken from the frame 24 of the Nix film.

The photograph on the right, upper right, is the photograph taken at the re-enactment from the position where Mr. Nix was standing. We then proceeded over to the point that we had established as the position of Mrs. Muchmore, and using frame 42, which is a frame in her film depicting the shot to the head, and using the steps and their relation to the President and the objects in the background in relation to the President as shown in this lower left-hand photograph, which is the Muchmore frame 42, we reestablished, we checked the position we had placed the car in, based on the Nix photographs, and found that it conformed and checked out as being in a closely accurate position.

With this, Mr. Shaneyfelt could have easily told you/the WC where Mr. Hudson was standing, had you bothered to ask him.

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In continuation:

Mr. LIEBELER - So, that you think you were standing somewhere in the back left-hand part

MY NOTE: Does anyone other than myself recognize exactly how silly this is???? The re-enactment of the assassination had been over with for virtually a month in which the Muchmore film was utilized to establish a position on the concrete landing of the steps where Mr. Hudson was standing. Mr. Hudson is clearly seen in the Muchmore film, and now we want to play "20-questions of Where-were-You".

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you mak yourself out?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I can't , unless it is one of these two men right here - I can't tell - if I had that picture that was taken in the Times Herald paper - I can show you myself in it.

Mr. LIEBELER - Which one is that?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, it was in the Times Herald paper the next morning after, I believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER - Look at this picture.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as the second shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir.

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Tom

P.S. You still have a few frames to go, as this is only approximately Z327/Z328 or so and is still less than one second past the Z313/M42 headshot.

I would however advise one to give particular attention to the "Running Man", as not only will he "rise" to the occassion, but he will also tell what happened at the time.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol15_0355a.htm

Mr. Shaneyfelt: Yes; I examined the Zapruder film and determined that Agent Hill first places his hand on the Presidential car at frame 343. This is approximately 1.6 seconds after the President is hit in the head at frame 313.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol15_0355a.htm

Mr. Shaneyfelt: Yes; I examined the Zapruder film and determined that Agent Hill first places his hand on the Presidential car at frame 343. This is approximately 1.6 seconds after the President is hit in the head at frame 313.

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation by anybody else in the President's automobile from the time of the shooting to the arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick."

Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment?

Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit."

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Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.

Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the--

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--

Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.

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Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

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Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

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http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/sa-greer.htm

After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z317.jpg

Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.

Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise?

Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise.

Mr. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all sounded practically the same to me.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over?

Mr. GREER. Right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?

Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As the time?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right.

Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye?

Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him?

Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how?

Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way?

Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw him.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?

Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. GREER. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the other.

Representative BOGGS. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot?

Mr. GREER. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me, didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I could.

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Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

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[Pat Speer]

Tom, I gather from your posts that the first shot caused the back wound, the second shot caused a high head wound, and the third shot caused a low head wound. Is that correct? Well, which shot caused the neck wound?

Are you defending the single-bullet theory? If it was the last shot that caused the neck wound then how come Kennedy reaches for his neck long before that shot? And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

If you actually believe in the SBT, then you have no business calling anyone here a "sheeple".

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I gather from your posts that the first shot caused the back wound, the second shot caused a high head wound, and the third shot caused a low head wound. Is that correct? Well, which shot caused the neck wound?

Are you defending the single-bullet theory? If it was the last shot that caused the neck wound then how come Kennedy reaches for his neck long before that shot? And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

If you actually believe in the SBT, then you have no business calling anyone here a "sheeple".

1. As was always the original concept, the first shot only entered a short distance into the back of JFK.

This was, if most will recall, the autopsy conclusion at the end of the autopsy, and was therefore also what the FBI agents present (Siebert & O'Neill) thereafter carried back to JEH.

2. Even the FBI shooting scenario of 2/7/64 still carried that the first shot only lodged a short distance into the back of JFK.

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& one can rest assured that neither JEH, nor his personnel are/were so stupid that the believed that a 2,000-2,200 feet per second bullet only penetrates a couple of inches without some form of interference to it's velocity.

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Well, which shot caused the neck wound?

The anterior neck wound was created by the small flat-based/cone-shaped lead fragment which sheared from the base of CE399, apparantly from it's abrupt halt and striking of the right transverse of the C-7 vertebrae.

The fragment (CE340) was recovered in the rear floorboard of the Presidential Limousine and was originally photographed. Only to later disappear.

Which of course gave someone a lead fragment, which was from the base of CE 399, which weighed in at .9 grains, with which to pull the sleight- (slight) of hand transfer/exchange to & with the JBC wrist fragments.

Therefore insuring that NAA would demonstrate that the JBC wrist fragments and CE399 had comparable NAA contents.

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Are you defending the single-bullet theory? If it was the last shot that caused the neck wound then how come Kennedy reaches for his neck long before that shot? And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

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I am a complete and total supportor of the SBT theory, as it is a fairly well established fact.

Might I also add that CE399 has nothing to do with the SBT theory and/or the "Magic Bullet" theory.

The SBT/Magic Bullet is the one that was fired; impacted it's target(s), created severe physical damage, and then had it's bullet disappear.

Somewhat like the third/last/final shot to the head of JFK which occurred some 2.3 seconds or so after the second shot which struck him in the head at Z-313.

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And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

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There are:

A. Reactions to being shot at

B. Reactions to being shot

Having been on the receiving end of both, the correct answer is "A".

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If you actually believe in the SBT, then you have no business calling anyone here a "sheeple

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Last time that I looked around, it was quite lonesome out here on this limb, by myself, claiming that:

1. There was only a single assassin

2. Three shots were fired and all three shots struck JFK

3. That the head shot at Z313 is the second shot fired in the shooting sequence

4. That the third/last/final shot also struck JFK in the head as well

5. That there is a true SBT/Magic Bullet

6. That CE399 is not, and has nothing to do with the TRUE SBT/Magic Bullet

7. That the WC is an intentional lie and misrepresentation of the facts of the assassination, even though there was in fact only a lone shooter.

8. That the only SBT that exist in the assassination is the third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, which:

a. Struck JFK in the rear of the head, just in/at the edge of the hairline, travelling/tunnelling up (in reference only to the direction to the top of the head) to strike in the vicinity of the EOP.

And, after having traversed the remaining brain of JFK, exited to strike JBC in the right shoulder as he lay across the open area of the Jump seats, directly in front of the head of JFK.

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In every "Magic" act that I have ever seen, items are made to "disappear" right in front of one's eyes.

CE399 is just a plain ole everyday bullet. Certainly nothing magic in it that I am aware of.

Anymore "sheeples" wish to get on this wagon and ride to the facts and truth of the shooting? Ultimately, I may get lonely out here all by my lonesome.