Shooter, Radioman, Spotter

[Al Carrier]

On another note, what do you (and other members) think of the competence of the investigating bodies of the JFK case?

I think the Commission did only a slightly better job than someone like yourself who doesn't attempt to understand what direction a projectile must have been moving in order to have sprung the fractured skull bones on the back of JFK's head to the rear.

Bill Miller

Hey Bill, I'm back from D.C. and can't help myself from posting on this one. What amazes me is how some still use the "physical evidence" angle and pick and choose which physical evidence to use as real and what to disregard in order to prove their theory.

It is much like the theatrical recreations we have seen recently when they used ballistic gelatin with bones similar in density to show how a bullet can penetrate and still come out as CE399 had. The ones who use this in their theory are either too quick to accept it or too dense to realize that the bones within the gelatin are not anchored and have no resistance to the projectile.

In other words, one can prove their theory beyond their own reasonable doubt by picking and choosing what is realistic and what is not, even though they have no background in ballistics, witness recall, etc and I will add in this case, common sense. This is why I have stopped debating issues such as direction of the bullet and number and shot origin. One cannot convince those who cannot fathom what one is talking about and is has made their mind up beyond any contention.

You have more patience and drive than I do in this and I commend you for still trying to make a case of the obvious against the likes of your adversary on this thread.

Al

[Antti Hynonen]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 03:09 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Jun 14 2006, 06:41 AM)

QUOTE

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 02:04 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Jun 13 2006, 07:29 AM)

QUOTE

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Today, 02:41 AM

QUOTE(Bill Miller @ Jun 12 2006, 03:57 PM)

QUOTE

Yep! Exactly as it should be in order to achieve the TANGENT strike of the fragment.

Certainly nice which the evidence actually fits.

Perhaps you should begin to read some, as opposed to merely looking at pictures. If so, then you will find that the entry point for the wrist wound was some two inches (5cm) back up the arm, from the wrist joint, on the back side of the wrist.

Really ... fits quite nicely you say?

There are two options for the President being shot in the head. One is from the front, which pretty much rules out any fragments reversing direction and coming back to hit JC in the wrist at that exact moment.

The second one is a shot from the rear that hit the President below the occipital bone and traveled upwards and outward through the bone plate that became dislodged off the top of the skull.

Neither option seems believable for not only having the correct trajectory for reaching Connally's wrist via his coat sleeve, but also having enough power to have smashed the Governor's radius bone without at least driving the wrist downward which never occurred between Z312 to Z314.

By the way, thanks for the advice about 'reading some', which I have done quite a bit of over the years, but what you read when talking about an unknown moment in time has to also correlate with the pictures taken at the moment in time you are claiming something occurred.

Bill Miller

One truly should pay attention to what Dr. Gregory has to say on the subject.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. GREGORY - Recall that I suggested that the wound of entrance, certainly the dorsal wound lay some distance, 5 cm. above the wrist joint, approximately here, that the second wound considered to be the wound of exit was only 2 cm. above this point, making the pathway an oblique one.

Dr. GREGORY - My initial impression was that whatever produced the wound of the wrist was an irregular object, certainly not smooth nosed as the business end of this particular bullet is because of two things. The size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it is irregular surfaced permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads, and carry them into the wound with it.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.

Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?

Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.

Dr. GREGORY - There is one additional piece of information that is of pertinence but I don't know how effectively it can be applied to the nature of the missile. That is the fact that dorsal branch of the radial nerve, a sensory nerve in this immediate vicinity was partially transected together with one tendon leading to the thumb, which was totally transected.

This could have been produced by a missile entering in the ordinary fashion, undisturbed, undistorted. But again it is more in keeping with an irregular surface which would tend to catch and tear a structure rather than push it aside.

Dr. GREGORY - This morning I was shown two additional missiles or portions of missiles which are rather grossly distorted.

Mr. SPECTER - Let me make those a part of the record here, and ask if those are the missiles which have heretofore been identified as Commission Exhibit 568 and Commission Exhibit 570.

Dr. GREGORY - These items represent distorted bits of a missile, a jacket in one case, and part of a jacket and a lead core in the other.

These are missiles having the characteristics which I mentioned earlier, which tend to carry organic debris into wounds and tend to create irregular wounds of entry. One of these, it seems to me, could conceivably have produced the injury which the Governor incurred in his wrist.

Mr. DULLES - In his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY - Yes.

Dr. GREGORY - I think it is plausible that the bullet, having struck the President's head, may have broken into more than one fragment. I think you apprised me of the fact that it did, in fact, disperse into a number of fragments, and they took tangential directions from the original path apparently.

Dr. GREGORY - I think it is possible that a fragment from that particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are two options for the President being shot in the head

Correct!

One is from the front,

Incorrect! Since there is absolutely ZERO forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical evidence of such a shot, it remains an option only within the minds of those who have yet to understand the evidence.

The second one is a shot from the rear that hit the President below the occipital bone and traveled upwards and outward through the bone plate that became dislodged off the top of the skull.

Incorrect again!

Since the EOP entry shot was the third/last/final shot to impact the head of JFK, and this bullet did not fragment, then it is most unlikely that it bears any responsibility for the wrist wound of JBC.

It is however the one and only true "Magic Bullet"!

The shot to the head which fragmented (Shot#2 @ Z-312/313 ) is the shot which perhaps you should concentrate on. aka the "cowlick" shot for those who keep account of the shots in that manner.

From Mr. Purvis' post above:

Dr. GREGORY - My initial impression was that whatever produced the wound of the wrist was an irregular object, certainly not smooth nosed as the business end of this particular bullet is because of two things. The size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it is irregular surfaced permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads, and carry them into the wound with it.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.

Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?

Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted.

So much for the Connally wounds to have been caused by the fantastic, magic CE-399, I might add almost intact bullet....

The nice thing about the SBT/Magic Bullet Theory is that it does not even require much in the way of an above average IQ in order to resolve that it is BS.

It does however require a little separate and independent research to resolve where the WC/Arlen Specter made his most severe mistakes, and expose them for what they are and thus demonstrate the absolute "intent" of the WC to not tell us the truth and facts.

an "irregular missile" of "limited velocity" pretty well defines what created the Connally wound to the wrist.

And, since there was only ONE shot that fragmented, this is truly one of those "NO BRAINER"S".

If, and when, one ceases to chase mythological creatures (aka multiple assassins), they just may resolve what the WC lie was actually all about.

Thanks for the compliments.

Sure enough the WC SBT is crap, which - on the other hand, makes it even harder to believe a single assassin.

The reason why Mr. Specter came up with the SBT was to explain a single assassin from behind and to get the shot sequence to sort of jive with some of the (manipulated?) testimony.

I've been trying to follow your theories relating to the shot sequence, the Carcano etc. but am unable to follow (this seems to be the case with many other members as well, I believe).

To reiterate, do you mind telling us what shot caused what wound, the damage to the limo, Tagues wound etc? Also, how many shots do you believe were fired?

Personally, I believe more than 3 shots were fired, from at least two positions. (The eye witness accounts from along Elm St. where JFK was hit seem to be the most reliable.)

On another note, what do you (and other members) think of the competence of the investigating bodies of the JFK case?

In particular, considering that the event was photographed and videotaped from multiple locations and also witnessed by dozens. What I'm saying is murders have been solved with no photographic nor video evidence, let alone eye witnesses and here we are some 43 years later discussing and debating what happened...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, what do you (and other members) think of the competence of the investigating bodies of the JFK case?

An extremely broad and far-reaching question! There were multiple "investigating bodies".

1. The Secret Service: And, since neither you, I, nor anyone else has available to us the evidence which they had and were in possession of, as well as the fact that they are/were considerably more qualified than most of us, then it would appear that they were quite competent to resolve the issues of the assassination on December 2nd 3rd, & 4th, 1963, when they accurately determined (within a couple of feet (+/-)) the physical location of JFK for impact of each of the three shots fired.

2. The FBI: Again, since none of us are hardly more qualified than was the FBI to determine the facts of the assassination, as well as not having the available evidence, then one can assume that the FBI was thoroughly competent to determine the facts of the assassination.

The primary question being: Exactly WHY? was the FBI detailed to determine the "FACTS" of the assassination, after the US Secret Service had already expended several days conducting an assassination re-enactment as well as completion of a relatively accurate survey plat of the murder scene/Elm St./Dealy Plaza.

And, in conjunction with this question, one should ask exactly why the FBI, after assuming responsibility for the "FACTS" of the assassination, changed the information relative to impact points for the shots, to a shooting sequence which was either an obvious lie if their were in fact a lone assassin, or else was indicative that two shooters would have had to have been present to achieve the FBI/JEH shooting scenario.

3. The WC: Certainly qualified to examine and present the facts, with the expertise available.

Unfortunately, they played several roles which included "Damage Control" in attempting to correct the intentional misrepresentations of facts related to the shot sequence, as presented by the FBI.

Secondly, and their obvious primary mission, was to completely obscure the true shot sequence as determined by the U.S. Secret Service, which they accomplished most effectively.

And of course lastly, they were most assuredly involved in the obscuring of the facts related to the connections of LHO, through DeMohrenschildt & others, to extremely important political figures.

And in so doing, they ignored those trails which ultimately would have lead to exactly who was behind the actions of LHO/The Lone Assassin, while these trails could have still been followed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure enough the WC SBT is crap, which - on the other hand, makes it even harder to believe a single assassin.

First off, it IS NOT the WC SBT!. The original idea began with a Dallas Police report in regards to the wounds suffered by JBC, which reportedly blamed all wounds to JBC on a single bullet.

However, not unlike many other documents, since the persons responsible for this report has never been questioned, we can not state as absolute fact that the report is not an "after the fact/idea" report which may have been filled out.

Nevertheless, Arlen Specter had his given parameters in which he had to develope and present the "Lone Assassin" scenario.

1. Had he/they/the WC presented to the American Public, the true facts of the assassination which demonstrate clearly that the head shot at Z-312/313 was in fact the second shot in the shot sequence, and this was then followed by the third/last/final shot, down by Mr. Altgen's position, then there would have been little problem in demonstrating that the "Lone Assassin" concept was not only entirely possible, but that it also matched all of the forensic and pathological evidence.

For political reasons, this had already been determined as an unacceptable alternative, thus the FBI, modified shooting sequence.

2. The FBI took the factual and relatively simple information, as determined by the US Secret Service, and for the same political reasons, changed the shot sequence.

Unfortunately, JEH & Company did not do all of their homework prior to releasing the information which they had created in elimination of the third/last/final shot and moving it to the mid-position (between shot#1 and shot#2-aka-Z-312/313.)

This lie/misrepresentation of the facts as presented by the great JEH & Company, was immediately caught based on the operating time of the rifle as opposed to exposed frames of the Z-film, which absolutely dictated that a second shot could not have been fired at the relocated position as stated by the FBI, without there being a second assassin.

3. Thus, the WC, which is going to straighten out all of this confusion, which in fact never existed to begin with until the FBI began to misrepresent the facts of the shooting sequence and thus got caught in a complete lie.

Which, one can only imagine what the American Public would have thought of this, had it become public knowledge at the time.

Therefore: The WC, for damage control, as well as obfuscation of the facts of the assassination.

In that Regards, Specter was left with no other alternative other than to place a nice suit on the SBT/Magic Bullet "PIG", and attempt to sell it to the American Public. Which I might add, at the time, was done quite well.

However, in this somewhat "enlightened" atmosphere in which we now reside, most literate persons fully recognize the actions of a "shyster lawyer".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

how many shots do you believe were fired?

For all that I know, there could have been the often ridiculous numbers of 5 shots; 6 shots; etc.

However, the great weight of evidence as well as witness testimony, which also includes persons who witnessed the three shots being fired from the 6th floor window of the TSDB, are indicative of the fact that only three shots were fired during the assassination, and that all of these shots were fired from the TSDB.

Certainly, one can not totally eliminate "other shots" from other positions, just as they can not rule out firecrackers, echo's, etc.

However, since the forensic and pathological damage to JFK/JBC is totally consistent with the impact of three shots which were fired from above and behind, then one must assume that all of these other "assassins", whether mythological or real, completely missed the Presidential Limousine as well as all of the occupants of the limosine.

There is absolutely nothing complicated in regards to either the actual shot sequence of the assassination, or the resulting pathological damage created by these THREE SHOTS.

It only becomes complicated when one makes a shot, as well as the bullet, completely disappear from the firing sequence. (The one and only true & real "Magic Bullet", as it has disappeared), and thereafter makes an attempt to blame ALL of the injuries sustained by JFK & JBC, on the impact of two bullets.

Then, since the headshot to JFK @ Z-312/313 quite obviously fragmented into multiple pieces, and JBC was obviously (forensically & pathologically) struck in the back by an intact bulllet, then that would leave only CE#399 to take the blame for this wound to JBC as well.

Then, in this scenario, it gets rather complicated, which most are of course fully aware of.

And, this is what Specter was left with and had to sell!

And, not unlike an aircraft with no wings, when fully examined and exactly scrutinized, it "DON'T FLY".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I'm saying is murders have been solved with no photographic nor video evidence, let alone eye witnesses and here we are some 43 years later discussing and debating what happened...

Actually, I am neither discussing and/or debating anything related to the shot sequence. I am telling you and the others exactly how the assassination of JFK transpired.

If others wish to discuss/debate/chase mythological multiple assassins/look for "Canyon Shoot" ambushes, etc; etc; etc;, then let them continue for another 43 years for all that I care.

How the assassination of JFK actually occurred, is quite simple.----3 shots, 3 hits, in approximately 9 seconds total elapsed time.

How the WC (selected members) obscurred these simple facts is also quite simple.---Think Shyster Lawyer--aka OJ Trial!

The WC was a "Political Entity", appointed by LBJ. Since both the SS as well as the FBI were fully qualified to tell us the facts and truth as regards the actual assassination, then quite obviously there were "Political" considerations as the primary reasoning for the WC.

After all, it had long prior, been relatively well established that the assassination was the result of a lone assassin/single shooter.

Tom

P.S. In event you have nothing better to do in life for the next 43 years or so, then by all means keep looking for multiple assassins.

However, it is most unlikely that one can continue to make "wrong turns", and yet still end up wherever it was that they wanted to go.

Which should also demonstrate the futility of the "Multiple/Mythological Assassin" scenario.

Looks like you've got the case pretty much cleared up then....good for you. You achieved something none of the investigating entities were able to do.

However, you haven't convinced me, and I might just keep looking for multiple assassins for 43 more years. Actually it's more a question of nailing down who they were, the fact is they were there as witnessed by numerous eye witnesses.

[Antti Hynonen]

duplicate post removed

Edited June 15, 2006 by Antti Hynonen

[Bill Miller]

You have more patience and drive than I do in this and I commend you for still trying to make a case of the obvious against the likes of your adversary on this thread.

Al

Thanks, Al. I get the feeling that some folks start with an answer and then look for some way to make it appear correct. The bones on the back of JFK's head being sprung open to the rear should tell us which direction the shot was traveling. This single observation is so damaging to the lone assassin firing from the rear that Specter did everything he could to steer witnesses away from talking about it. It is also probably the biggest reason the autopsy photos could not be allowed to show such damage.

Bill

Edited June 15, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Thomas H. Purvis]

On another note, what do you (and other members) think of the competence of the investigating bodies of the JFK case?

I think the Commission did only a slightly better job than someone like yourself who doesn't attempt to understand what direction a projectile must have been moving in order to have sprung the fractured skull bones on the back of JFK's head to the rear.

Bill Miller

Hey Bill, I'm back from D.C. and can't help myself from posting on this one. What amazes me is how some still use the "physical evidence" angle and pick and choose which physical evidence to use as real and what to disregard in order to prove their theory.

It is much like the theatrical recreations we have seen recently when they used ballistic gelatin with bones similar in density to show how a bullet can penetrate and still come out as CE399 had. The ones who use this in their theory are either too quick to accept it or too dense to realize that the bones within the gelatin are not anchored and have no resistance to the projectile.

In other words, one can prove their theory beyond their own reasonable doubt by picking and choosing what is realistic and what is not, even though they have no background in ballistics, witness recall, etc and I will add in this case, common sense. This is why I have stopped debating issues such as direction of the bullet and number and shot origin. One cannot convince those who cannot fathom what one is talking about and is has made their mind up beyond any contention.

You have more patience and drive than I do in this and I commend you for still trying to make a case of the obvious against the likes of your adversary on this thread.

Al

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 03:09 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Jun 14 2006, 06:41 AM)

QUOTE

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 02:04 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Jun 13 2006, 07:29 AM)

QUOTE

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Today, 02:41 AM

QUOTE(Bill Miller @ Jun 12 2006, 03:57 PM)

QUOTE

Yep! Exactly as it should be in order to achieve the TANGENT strike of the fragment.

Certainly nice which the evidence actually fits.

Perhaps you should begin to read some, as opposed to merely looking at pictures. If so, then you will find that the entry point for the wrist wound was some two inches (5cm) back up the arm, from the wrist joint, on the back side of the wrist.

Really ... fits quite nicely you say?

There are two options for the President being shot in the head. One is from the front, which pretty much rules out any fragments reversing direction and coming back to hit JC in the wrist at that exact moment.

The second one is a shot from the rear that hit the President below the occipital bone and traveled upwards and outward through the bone plate that became dislodged off the top of the skull.

Neither option seems believable for not only having the correct trajectory for reaching Connally's wrist via his coat sleeve, but also having enough power to have smashed the Governor's radius bone without at least driving the wrist downward which never occurred between Z312 to Z314.

By the way, thanks for the advice about 'reading some', which I have done quite a bit of over the years, but what you read when talking about an unknown moment in time has to also correlate with the pictures taken at the moment in time you are claiming something occurred.

Bill Miller

One truly should pay attention to what Dr. Gregory has to say on the subject.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. GREGORY - Recall that I suggested that the wound of entrance, certainly the dorsal wound lay some distance, 5 cm. above the wrist joint, approximately here, that the second wound considered to be the wound of exit was only 2 cm. above this point, making the pathway an oblique one.

Dr. GREGORY - My initial impression was that whatever produced the wound of the wrist was an irregular object, certainly not smooth nosed as the business end of this particular bullet is because of two things. The size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it is irregular surfaced permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads, and carry them into the wound with it.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.

Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?

Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.

Dr. GREGORY - There is one additional piece of information that is of pertinence but I don't know how effectively it can be applied to the nature of the missile. That is the fact that dorsal branch of the radial nerve, a sensory nerve in this immediate vicinity was partially transected together with one tendon leading to the thumb, which was totally transected.

This could have been produced by a missile entering in the ordinary fashion, undisturbed, undistorted. But again it is more in keeping with an irregular surface which would tend to catch and tear a structure rather than push it aside.

Dr. GREGORY - This morning I was shown two additional missiles or portions of missiles which are rather grossly distorted.

Mr. SPECTER - Let me make those a part of the record here, and ask if those are the missiles which have heretofore been identified as Commission Exhibit 568 and Commission Exhibit 570.

Dr. GREGORY - These items represent distorted bits of a missile, a jacket in one case, and part of a jacket and a lead core in the other.

These are missiles having the characteristics which I mentioned earlier, which tend to carry organic debris into wounds and tend to create irregular wounds of entry. One of these, it seems to me, could conceivably have produced the injury which the Governor incurred in his wrist.

Mr. DULLES - In his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY - Yes.

Dr. GREGORY - I think it is plausible that the bullet, having struck the President's head, may have broken into more than one fragment. I think you apprised me of the fact that it did, in fact, disperse into a number of fragments, and they took tangential directions from the original path apparently.

Dr. GREGORY - I think it is possible that a fragment from that particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are two options for the President being shot in the head

Correct!

One is from the front,

Incorrect! Since there is absolutely ZERO forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical evidence of such a shot, it remains an option only within the minds of those who have yet to understand the evidence.

The second one is a shot from the rear that hit the President below the occipital bone and traveled upwards and outward through the bone plate that became dislodged off the top of the skull.

Incorrect again!

Since the EOP entry shot was the third/last/final shot to impact the head of JFK, and this bullet did not fragment, then it is most unlikely that it bears any responsibility for the wrist wound of JBC.

It is however the one and only true "Magic Bullet"!

The shot to the head which fragmented (Shot#2 @ Z-312/313 ) is the shot which perhaps you should concentrate on. aka the "cowlick" shot for those who keep account of the shots in that manner.

From Mr. Purvis' post above:

Dr. GREGORY - My initial impression was that whatever produced the wound of the wrist was an irregular object, certainly not smooth nosed as the business end of this particular bullet is because of two things. The size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it is irregular surfaced permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads, and carry them into the wound with it.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.

Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?

Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted.

So much for the Connally wounds to have been caused by the fantastic, magic CE-399, I might add almost intact bullet....

The nice thing about the SBT/Magic Bullet Theory is that it does not even require much in the way of an above average IQ in order to resolve that it is BS.

It does however require a little separate and independent research to resolve where the WC/Arlen Specter made his most severe mistakes, and expose them for what they are and thus demonstrate the absolute "intent" of the WC to not tell us the truth and facts.

an "irregular missile" of "limited velocity" pretty well defines what created the Connally wound to the wrist.

And, since there was only ONE shot that fragmented, this is truly one of those "NO BRAINER"S".

If, and when, one ceases to chase mythological creatures (aka multiple assassins), they just may resolve what the WC lie was actually all about.

Thanks for the compliments.

Sure enough the WC SBT is crap, which - on the other hand, makes it even harder to believe a single assassin.

The reason why Mr. Specter came up with the SBT was to explain a single assassin from behind and to get the shot sequence to sort of jive with some of the (manipulated?) testimony.

I've been trying to follow your theories relating to the shot sequence, the Carcano etc. but am unable to follow (this seems to be the case with many other members as well, I believe).

To reiterate, do you mind telling us what shot caused what wound, the damage to the limo, Tagues wound etc? Also, how many shots do you believe were fired?

Personally, I believe more than 3 shots were fired, from at least two positions. (The eye witness accounts from along Elm St. where JFK was hit seem to be the most reliable.)

On another note, what do you (and other members) think of the competence of the investigating bodies of the JFK case?

In particular, considering that the event was photographed and videotaped from multiple locations and also witnessed by dozens. What I'm saying is murders have been solved with no photographic nor video evidence, let alone eye witnesses and here we are some 43 years later discussing and debating what happened...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, what do you (and other members) think of the competence of the investigating bodies of the JFK case?

An extremely broad and far-reaching question! There were multiple "investigating bodies".

1. The Secret Service: And, since neither you, I, nor anyone else has available to us the evidence which they had and were in possession of, as well as the fact that they are/were considerably more qualified than most of us, then it would appear that they were quite competent to resolve the issues of the assassination on December 2nd 3rd, & 4th, 1963, when they accurately determined (within a couple of feet (+/-)) the physical location of JFK for impact of each of the three shots fired.

2. The FBI: Again, since none of us are hardly more qualified than was the FBI to determine the facts of the assassination, as well as not having the available evidence, then one can assume that the FBI was thoroughly competent to determine the facts of the assassination.

The primary question being: Exactly WHY? was the FBI detailed to determine the "FACTS" of the assassination, after the US Secret Service had already expended several days conducting an assassination re-enactment as well as completion of a relatively accurate survey plat of the murder scene/Elm St./Dealy Plaza.

And, in conjunction with this question, one should ask exactly why the FBI, after assuming responsibility for the "FACTS" of the assassination, changed the information relative to impact points for the shots, to a shooting sequence which was either an obvious lie if their were in fact a lone assassin, or else was indicative that two shooters would have had to have been present to achieve the FBI/JEH shooting scenario.

3. The WC: Certainly qualified to examine and present the facts, with the expertise available.

Unfortunately, they played several roles which included "Damage Control" in attempting to correct the intentional misrepresentations of facts related to the shot sequence, as presented by the FBI.

Secondly, and their obvious primary mission, was to completely obscure the true shot sequence as determined by the U.S. Secret Service, which they accomplished most effectively.

And of course lastly, they were most assuredly involved in the obscuring of the facts related to the connections of LHO, through DeMohrenschildt & others, to extremely important political figures.

And in so doing, they ignored those trails which ultimately would have lead to exactly who was behind the actions of LHO/The Lone Assassin, while these trails could have still been followed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure enough the WC SBT is crap, which - on the other hand, makes it even harder to believe a single assassin.

First off, it IS NOT the WC SBT!. The original idea began with a Dallas Police report in regards to the wounds suffered by JBC, which reportedly blamed all wounds to JBC on a single bullet.

However, not unlike many other documents, since the persons responsible for this report has never been questioned, we can not state as absolute fact that the report is not an "after the fact/idea" report which may have been filled out.

Nevertheless, Arlen Specter had his given parameters in which he had to develope and present the "Lone Assassin" scenario.

1. Had he/they/the WC presented to the American Public, the true facts of the assassination which demonstrate clearly that the head shot at Z-312/313 was in fact the second shot in the shot sequence, and this was then followed by the third/last/final shot, down by Mr. Altgen's position, then there would have been little problem in demonstrating that the "Lone Assassin" concept was not only entirely possible, but that it also matched all of the forensic and pathological evidence.

For political reasons, this had already been determined as an unacceptable alternative, thus the FBI, modified shooting sequence.

2. The FBI took the factual and relatively simple information, as determined by the US Secret Service, and for the same political reasons, changed the shot sequence.

Unfortunately, JEH & Company did not do all of their homework prior to releasing the information which they had created in elimination of the third/last/final shot and moving it to the mid-position (between shot#1 and shot#2-aka-Z-312/313.)

This lie/misrepresentation of the facts as presented by the great JEH & Company, was immediately caught based on the operating time of the rifle as opposed to exposed frames of the Z-film, which absolutely dictated that a second shot could not have been fired at the relocated position as stated by the FBI, without there being a second assassin.

3. Thus, the WC, which is going to straighten out all of this confusion, which in fact never existed to begin with until the FBI began to misrepresent the facts of the shooting sequence and thus got caught in a complete lie.

Which, one can only imagine what the American Public would have thought of this, had it become public knowledge at the time.

Therefore: The WC, for damage control, as well as obfuscation of the facts of the assassination.

In that Regards, Specter was left with no other alternative other than to place a nice suit on the SBT/Magic Bullet "PIG", and attempt to sell it to the American Public. Which I might add, at the time, was done quite well.

However, in this somewhat "enlightened" atmosphere in which we now reside, most literate persons fully recognize the actions of a "shyster lawyer".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

how many shots do you believe were fired?

For all that I know, there could have been the often ridiculous numbers of 5 shots; 6 shots; etc.

However, the great weight of evidence as well as witness testimony, which also includes persons who witnessed the three shots being fired from the 6th floor window of the TSDB, are indicative of the fact that only three shots were fired during the assassination, and that all of these shots were fired from the TSDB.

Certainly, one can not totally eliminate "other shots" from other positions, just as they can not rule out firecrackers, echo's, etc.

However, since the forensic and pathological damage to JFK/JBC is totally consistent with the impact of three shots which were fired from above and behind, then one must assume that all of these other "assassins", whether mythological or real, completely missed the Presidential Limousine as well as all of the occupants of the limosine.

There is absolutely nothing complicated in regards to either the actual shot sequence of the assassination, or the resulting pathological damage created by these THREE SHOTS.

It only becomes complicated when one makes a shot, as well as the bullet, completely disappear from the firing sequence. (The one and only true & real "Magic Bullet", as it has disappeared), and thereafter makes an attempt to blame ALL of the injuries sustained by JFK & JBC, on the impact of two bullets.

Then, since the headshot to JFK @ Z-312/313 quite obviously fragmented into multiple pieces, and JBC was obviously (forensically & pathologically) struck in the back by an intact bulllet, then that would leave only CE#399 to take the blame for this wound to JBC as well.

Then, in this scenario, it gets rather complicated, which most are of course fully aware of.

And, this is what Specter was left with and had to sell!

And, not unlike an aircraft with no wings, when fully examined and exactly scrutinized, it "DON'T FLY".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I'm saying is murders have been solved with no photographic nor video evidence, let alone eye witnesses and here we are some 43 years later discussing and debating what happened...

Actually, I am neither discussing and/or debating anything related to the shot sequence. I am telling you and the others exactly how the assassination of JFK transpired.

If others wish to discuss/debate/chase mythological multiple assassins/look for "Canyon Shoot" ambushes, etc; etc; etc;, then let them continue for another 43 years for all that I care.

How the assassination of JFK actually occurred, is quite simple.----3 shots, 3 hits, in approximately 9 seconds total elapsed time.

How the WC (selected members) obscurred these simple facts is also quite simple.---Think Shyster Lawyer--aka OJ Trial!

The WC was a "Political Entity", appointed by LBJ. Since both the SS as well as the FBI were fully qualified to tell us the facts and truth as regards the actual assassination, then quite obviously there were "Political" considerations as the primary reasoning for the WC.

After all, it had long prior, been relatively well established that the assassination was the result of a lone assassin/single shooter.

Tom

P.S. In event you have nothing better to do in life for the next 43 years or so, then by all means keep looking for multiple assassins.

However, it is most unlikely that one can continue to make "wrong turns", and yet still end up wherever it was that they wanted to go.

Which should also demonstrate the futility of the "Multiple/Mythological Assassin" scenario.

Looks like you've got the case pretty much cleared up then....good for you. You achieved something none of the investigating entities were able to do.

However, you haven't convinced me, and I might just keep looking for multiple assassins for 43 more years. Actually it's more a question of nailing down who they were, the fact is they were there as witnessed by numerous eye witnesses.

Looks like you've got the case pretty much cleared up then....good for you. You achieved something none of the investigating entities were able to do.

Sorry to be the one to dissapoint you! However, the U.S. Secret Service as well as the FBI had this pretty well wrapped up before the end of 1963.

And, unlike some podunk cops, I am neither under the assumption that I am more qualified, have more experience, and/or access to more information and resources than did the SS & FBI have available to them to resolve the issues.

I am however intelligent enough to recognize that the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily had the resources to quickly resolved the issues of the assassination.

Therefore, anyone on this forum (or any other forum for that matter) who is under the assumption that the US Secret Service and the FBI could not resolve the issues of the assassination, and that "THEY" (some podunk cop who claims great sniper training and crime investigation knowledge) with all of their great "CANYON SHOOT/mythological SCOUT SNIPER SCHOOL" training, as well as their city cop training, possess more qualifications to resolve the issues of the assassination than the FBI/SS, merely demonstrate their complete ignorance of the capabilities of the Department of Justice as well as the US Treasury Department.

The nice (& easy, I might add) part about debting with the "Multiple Assassin" groupings is the simple fact that to date, absolutely no one has demonstrated a single forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical fact which would support shots striking JFK from any direction other than the rear, and above.

Not to mention the fact that few if any can even agree as to the exact firing position of the great mythological multiple assassin.

Nevertheless, it is always good for a laugh!

On another note, what do you (and other members) think of the competence of the investigating bodies of the JFK case?

I think the Commission did only a slightly better job than someone like yourself who doesn't attempt to understand what direction a projectile must have been moving in order to have sprung the fractured skull bones on the back of JFK's head to the rear.

Bill Miller

Hey Bill, I'm back from D.C. and can't help myself from posting on this one. What amazes me is how some still use the "physical evidence" angle and pick and choose which physical evidence to use as real and what to disregard in order to prove their theory.

It is much like the theatrical recreations we have seen recently when they used ballistic gelatin with bones similar in density to show how a bullet can penetrate and still come out as CE399 had. The ones who use this in their theory are either too quick to accept it or too dense to realize that the bones within the gelatin are not anchored and have no resistance to the projectile.

In other words, one can prove their theory beyond their own reasonable doubt by picking and choosing what is realistic and what is not, even though they have no background in ballistics, witness recall, etc and I will add in this case, common sense. This is why I have stopped debating issues such as direction of the bullet and number and shot origin. One cannot convince those who cannot fathom what one is talking about and is has made their mind up beyond any contention.

You have more patience and drive than I do in this and I commend you for still trying to make a case of the obvious against the likes of your adversary on this thread.

Al

Of course, one can always remain completely ignorant of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts, and continue to expouse the great "CANYON SHOOT" BS, and or worship "Dangerous Dan Marvin, LTC, Quartermaster Supply Corps, Retired.

Either of which demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of fact as well as research ability.

[Bill Miller]

I am however intelligent enough to recognize that the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily had the resources to quickly resolved the issues of the assassination.

Are you equally intelligent enough to know they had the resources and ability to steeer the official findings in any direction they wanted?

Mr. ROWLAND - At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now.

Mrs. Hartman tells FBI that a furrow in the grass said to have come from a missed shot led back in the direction of the large tree on the knoll ... the FBI enters a report saying she told them the furrow led back to the TSBD.

Ron Fischer tells Belin during his testimony what the man he saw on the 6th floor looked like and several times Belin stopped Fischer's testimony to argue that it is not the man they say did the shooting. Now how intelligent does one have to be to see what was going on here!

The nice (& easy, I might add) part about debting with the "Multiple Assassin" groupings is the simple fact that to date, absolutely no one has demonstrated a single forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical fact which would support shots striking JFK from any direction other than the rear, and above.

I must have missed your prior response, so please tell me again what direction a bullet is traveling when it springs open the fractured skull bones to the rear?

Bill Miller

Edited June 15, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Al Carrier]

Sorry to be the one to dissapoint you! However, the U.S. Secret Service as well as the FBI had this pretty well wrapped up before the end of 1963.

And, unlike some podunk cops, I am neither under the assumption that I am more qualified, have more experience, and/or access to more information and resources than did the SS & FBI have available to them to resolve the issues.

I am however intelligent enough to recognize that the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily had the resources to quickly resolved the issues of the assassination.

Therefore, anyone on this forum (or any other forum for that matter) who is under the assumption that the US Secret Service and the FBI could not resolve the issues of the assassination, and that "THEY" (some podunk cop who claims great sniper training and crime investigation knowledge) with all of their great "CANYON SHOOT/mythological SCOUT SNIPER SCHOOL" training, as well as their city cop training, possess more qualifications to resolve the issues of the assassination than the FBI/SS, merely demonstrate their complete ignorance of the capabilities of the Department of Justice as well as the US Treasury Department.

The nice (& easy, I might add) part about debting with the "Multiple Assassin" groupings is the simple fact that to date, absolutely no one has demonstrated a single forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical fact which would support shots striking JFK from any direction other than the rear, and above.

Not to mention the fact that few if any can even agree as to the exact firing position of the great mythological multiple assassin.

Nevertheless, it is always good for a laugh!

Mr. Purvis,

Nice to know I can make you laugh. By the way, what do you bring to the table to qualify you in interpreting anything? You are not worthy of my time, even though I am a podunk cop. At least I have a title. You have never addressed my issues, only attacked me. And you have only attacked me with words and not attacked my credentials. If you would like to do that, then maybe I will discuss this with you intelligently. I will not get into the name calling as you are looking for a fight, which is typical of those who do not have ammunition for an intelligent debate.

Al

[Antti Hynonen]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 04:57 PM

Looks like you've got the case pretty much cleared up then....good for you. You achieved something none of the investigating entities were able to do.

Sorry to be the one to dissapoint you! However, the U.S. Secret Service as well as the FBI had this pretty well wrapped up before the end of 1963.

And, unlike some podunk cops, I am neither under the assumption that I am more qualified, have more experience, and/or access to more information and resources than did the SS & FBI have available to them to resolve the issues.

I am however intelligent enough to recognize that the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily had the resources to quickly resolved the issues of the assassination.

Therefore, anyone on this forum (or any other forum for that matter) who is under the assumption that the US Secret Service and the FBI could not resolve the issues of the assassination, and that "THEY" (some podunk cop who claims great sniper training and crime investigation knowledge) with all of their great "CANYON SHOOT/mythological SCOUT SNIPER SCHOOL" training, as well as their city cop training, possess more qualifications to resolve the issues of the assassination than the FBI/SS, merely demonstrate their complete ignorance of the capabilities of the Department of Justice as well as the US Treasury Department.

The nice (& easy, I might add) part about debting with the "Multiple Assassin" groupings is the simple fact that to date, absolutely no one has demonstrated a single forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical fact which would support shots striking JFK from any direction other than the rear, and above.

Not to mention the fact that few if any can even agree as to the exact firing position of the great mythological multiple assassin.

Nevertheless, it is always good for a laugh!

Of course, one can always remain completely ignorant of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts, and continue to expouse the great "CANYON SHOOT" BS, and or worship "Dangerous Dan Marvin, LTC, Quartermaster Supply Corps, Retired.

Either of which demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of fact as well as research ability.

Au contraire mon ami. It is specifically the original, non-manipulated, forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical evidence which proves more than one assassin, firing from at least two directions. The cover-up of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical evidence shows a massive government led conspiracy to hide and distort the true events, which transpired 11/22/1963.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Sorry to be the one to dissapoint you! However, the U.S. Secret Service as well as the FBI had this pretty well wrapped up before the end of 1963.

And, unlike some podunk cops, I am neither under the assumption that I am more qualified, have more experience, and/or access to more information and resources than did the SS & FBI have available to them to resolve the issues.

I am however intelligent enough to recognize that the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily had the resources to quickly resolved the issues of the assassination.

Therefore, anyone on this forum (or any other forum for that matter) who is under the assumption that the US Secret Service and the FBI could not resolve the issues of the assassination, and that "THEY" (some podunk cop who claims great sniper training and crime investigation knowledge) with all of their great "CANYON SHOOT/mythological SCOUT SNIPER SCHOOL" training, as well as their city cop training, possess more qualifications to resolve the issues of the assassination than the FBI/SS, merely demonstrate their complete ignorance of the capabilities of the Department of Justice as well as the US Treasury Department.

The nice (& easy, I might add) part about debting with the "Multiple Assassin" groupings is the simple fact that to date, absolutely no one has demonstrated a single forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical fact which would support shots striking JFK from any direction other than the rear, and above.

Not to mention the fact that few if any can even agree as to the exact firing position of the great mythological multiple assassin.

Nevertheless, it is always good for a laugh!

Mr. Purvis,

Nice to know I can make you laugh. By the way, what do you bring to the table to qualify you in interpreting anything? You are not worthy of my time, even though I am a podunk cop. At least I have a title. You have never addressed my issues, only attacked me. And you have only attacked me with words and not attacked my credentials. If you would like to do that, then maybe I will discuss this with you intelligently. I will not get into the name calling as you are looking for a fight, which is typical of those who do not have ammunition for an intelligent debate.

Al

which is typical of those who do not have ammunition for an intelligent debate.

Al

Were it that I were debating, and/or debating with someone who demonstrated an intelligent capability, as well as the ability to conduct factual research, then there would be little problems.

Come on "Big Al", inquiring minds want to know about all of the evaluation of the evidence you have conducted, as well as what new revelations you can prove.

I do recall some time ago, on Lancer, when I first posted information relative to the weight loss to a bullet merely from having been fired, and that had not been taken into consideration in accountability for the accountable weight of CE399, that you "jumped" in and made some statement to the effect that "everyone" knew that a bullet lost weight.

Nope! Big Al, everyone did not know that! And not only that, as of then, and as of this date, to my knowledge, I remain the only person who has taken the time and effort to weigh a WCC Carcano bullet prior to firing it, fire and recover it, and thus re-weigh the bullet to demonstrate this.

Which if recalled, amounted to 0.63 grains of weight loss from being fired.

Exactly where were you during all of this knowledge gathering, which I did way back in the early 90"s?

Something which even you may have been qualified to do, yet apparantly did not have the understanding of ballistics to even take the time and conduct the test to present the FACTS!.

And, this type of demonstration regarding your lack of factual research could go on, and on, and on.

You fully demonstrated your own lack of knowledge as well as inability to research a subject matter when you "signed" on as one of the worshipers of "Dangerous Dan Marvin".

When I saw this, on Lancer, there was little doubt as to your lack of qualifications in virtually anything, including even the most basic research capability.

You remind me of a used car salesman, who because he claims to have been selling "quality" cars for 30 years, is therefore trustworthy and should be believed in regards to the quality and condition of some car which is attempting to be sold.

Go back to playing with your paintball guns Al!

Fortunately, there are those who visit this forum who understand the necessity of FACTUAL EVIDENCE.

With the information which I have progressively been providing, it is now unlikely that the facts of the JFK assassination shooting will remain lost and/or confused for too much longer.

In that regards, History will hopefully correct itself, and when it does, there will be many who, provided that they are still living, will want to change their names and hide for having expoused and/or believed some of the nonsense surrounding this subject.

In event that it would appear that this "Correct History" has not occurred prior to my death, then rest assured that it will be engraved on my headstone" "WAS NEVER SO STUPID TO BELIEVE IN MULTIPLE ASSASSINS OR BODY KIDNAPPINGS", in order that the living world will always know exactly what position I took.

You, as well as many others, have ranted on for years about the "impossibility" of the shots in Dealy Plaza, without even taking the time and effort to determine if the WC representation was factual.

Yet, you continue to rant and rave about the WC Lie!

It does not take even a smart or intelligent person to recognize that the WC is not a factual presentation of the evidence surrounding the assassination.

It does however require a little effort as well as research ability to demonstrate the absolute error of the WC manipulations of the facts.

None of which I might add, have ever been forthcoming from you!

At least, over on alt.assassination, there is one individual who demonstrated the research capability to recognize that the Z312/313 headshot WAS NOT the last shot fired in the shooting sequence.

And although he is still under the impression that the third/last/final shot was not fired from the TSDB, at least he is that much closer to the facts and truth than the great "Al Carrier", podunk cop extraordnaire!

And, I might add, this person has little if any training and/or experience in police investigation and/or shooting/and or weapons.

So Al! Continue to "blow smoke" up your on rectal orifice, since you apparantly have convinced yourself that you know something on this subject matter.

And, by all means continue to blow it up those who have no better sense than to accept it as if it came from some reliable source.

Which I might add, is one of the reasons that few have managed to even follow the evidence trail as they have become far too lost in searching for the BS which you and the Body Kidnappers continue to foster.

And in that regards, those few of us who like to stick with the known facts, have little to worry about in the way of you and your followers ever coming upon the facts of the assassination as well as what the WC lie is truly about, as well as the WHY? of Jack Ruby shooting LHO.

Lastly, I would remind those of "your followers", that the last time that I checked, you were merely a follower of a retired QUARTERMASTER SUPPLY CORPS, retired LTC, who was attempting to follow suit with the nonsense of conspiracies surrounding this subject.

Therefore, I am reminded of the old saying about the "blind being led by the blind", as well as the numerous "dumb & dumber" sayings.

Either statement of which I will personally pay for the cost of having engraved on your headstone, when History corrects the many misconceptions as regards the shots fired in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 04:57 PM

Looks like you've got the case pretty much cleared up then....good for you. You achieved something none of the investigating entities were able to do.

Sorry to be the one to dissapoint you! However, the U.S. Secret Service as well as the FBI had this pretty well wrapped up before the end of 1963.

And, unlike some podunk cops, I am neither under the assumption that I am more qualified, have more experience, and/or access to more information and resources than did the SS & FBI have available to them to resolve the issues.

I am however intelligent enough to recognize that the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily had the resources to quickly resolved the issues of the assassination.

Therefore, anyone on this forum (or any other forum for that matter) who is under the assumption that the US Secret Service and the FBI could not resolve the issues of the assassination, and that "THEY" (some podunk cop who claims great sniper training and crime investigation knowledge) with all of their great "CANYON SHOOT/mythological SCOUT SNIPER SCHOOL" training, as well as their city cop training, possess more qualifications to resolve the issues of the assassination than the FBI/SS, merely demonstrate their complete ignorance of the capabilities of the Department of Justice as well as the US Treasury Department.

The nice (& easy, I might add) part about debting with the "Multiple Assassin" groupings is the simple fact that to date, absolutely no one has demonstrated a single forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical fact which would support shots striking JFK from any direction other than the rear, and above.

Not to mention the fact that few if any can even agree as to the exact firing position of the great mythological multiple assassin.

Nevertheless, it is always good for a laugh!

Of course, one can always remain completely ignorant of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts, and continue to expouse the great "CANYON SHOOT" BS, and or worship "Dangerous Dan Marvin, LTC, Quartermaster Supply Corps, Retired.

Either of which demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of fact as well as research ability.

Au contraire mon ami. It is specifically the original, non-manipulated, forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical evidence which proves more than one assassin, firing from at least two directions. The cover-up of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical evidence shows a massive government led conspiracy to hide and distort the true events, which transpired 11/22/1963.

And, am I to assume that you have taken the time and/or effort to discuss some of this purportedly "non-manipulated" evidence with the FBI Agents who actually examined it?

How about discussions with any one of the three Autopsy Surgeons?

How about any discussions with Dr. Perry in regards to the anterior neck wound?

If not, then it is most unlikely that you can separate the "manipulated" evidence from the "non-manipulated" evidence in order to know which path one should follow.

Do you now, or have you ever owned a semi-quality Carcano and WCC ammo and done any test firing?

Although thoroughly reading up on a subject matter is an essesntial element of proper research, one should also take the time and effort to determine independently which/what of this information has a basis founded in fact, as well as what portion of it is merely opinions.

In that regards, you can not even get an agreement of "opinions" as to where the UNICORN/aka Multiple Assassin was firing from, not to mention any physical fact of the existence of this mythological creature.

Personally, I have never wasted any time in search for Unicorns; the Tooth Fairy; the Easter Bunny; the Golden Fleece; and/or any other mythological creatures in which there is nothing more than rumor; innuendo; hearsay; and half-truth; as to the existence thereof.

Tom

P.S. I did however look for Santa Claus as a child, just that when I grew up I also recognized that he too was a mythological being.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I am however intelligent enough to recognize that the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily had the resources to quickly resolved the issues of the assassination.

Are you equally intelligent enough to know they had the resources and ability to steeer the official findings in any direction they wanted?

Mr. ROWLAND - At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now.

Mrs. Hartman tells FBI that a furrow in the grass said to have come from a missed shot led back in the direction of the large tree on the knoll ... the FBI enters a report saying she told them the furrow led back to the TSBD.

Ron Fischer tells Belin during his testimony what the man he saw on the 6th floor looked like and several times Belin stopped Fischer's testimony to argue that it is not the man they say did the shooting. Now how intelligent does one have to be to see what was going on here!

The nice (& easy, I might add) part about debting with the "Multiple Assassin" groupings is the simple fact that to date, absolutely no one has demonstrated a single forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical fact which would support shots striking JFK from any direction other than the rear, and above.

I must have missed your prior response, so please tell me again what direction a bullet is traveling when it springs open the fractured skull bones to the rear?

Bill Miller

Last time that I checked, a shot from the front would have "Blasted Out", the bones from the rear of the head, as well as having created a rearward spray of blood, cerebral tissue, and bullets(fragments) as can be seen from the headshot at Z312/313.

Not to mention the simple fact as regards to the complete impossibility of a shot from the front having created an ENTRANCE wound in the rear of the skull with internal beveling of the interior wall of the skull bone.

Now Bill, in event you have some rational explanation as to exactly how it was that this mythological shot from the front created a virtually impossible enigma in regards to an entrance wound through both tables of the skull, which entered from the REAR, then I for one would certainly be interested in this direct contradiction to all know physical fact and reality.

Until then, I, personally, will continue to remain completely lost in the general assumption that the absolute and known physical facts, demonstrate that the EOP wound was a wound of ENTRY, which created beveling on the interior table of the skull, as evaluated by those persons who were present and physically had their hands on the actual evidence.

Which I might add, is considerably easier than attempting to come up with some explanation as to how some mythological shot from the front struck in the anterior neck at/about the third tracheal ring and then turned upwards to exit out the rear of the skull.

Especially when one can easily see that at Z312/313 that JFK virtually has his chin down on his chest as well as the centerline of his throat turned away from the "Grassy Knowl".

Oh! I forgot! "Ice Bullets"; Fleschetts, etc; fired from the mysterious "Umbrella Man", all of which demonstrate that I obviously have not taken all of the "FACTS" into proper consideration.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I am however intelligent enough to recognize that the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily had the resources to quickly resolved the issues of the assassination.

Are you equally intelligent enough to know they had the resources and ability to steeer the official findings in any direction they wanted?

Mr. ROWLAND - At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now.

Mrs. Hartman tells FBI that a furrow in the grass said to have come from a missed shot led back in the direction of the large tree on the knoll ... the FBI enters a report saying she told them the furrow led back to the TSBD.

Ron Fischer tells Belin during his testimony what the man he saw on the 6th floor looked like and several times Belin stopped Fischer's testimony to argue that it is not the man they say did the shooting. Now how intelligent does one have to be to see what was going on here!

The nice (& easy, I might add) part about debting with the "Multiple Assassin" groupings is the simple fact that to date, absolutely no one has demonstrated a single forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical fact which would support shots striking JFK from any direction other than the rear, and above.

I must have missed your prior response, so please tell me again what direction a bullet is traveling when it springs open the fractured skull bones to the rear?

Bill Miller

Mr. ROWLAND - At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now.

Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle

Mr. SPECTER - Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the individual whom you saw?

Mr. ROWLAND - He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.

Mr. SPECTER - Could you give us an estimate on his height?

Mr. ROWLAND - No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.

Mr. SPECTER - Was he a white man or a Negro or what?

Mr. ROWLAND - Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

Mr. SPECTER - What race was he then?

Mr. ROWLAND - I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.

Mr. SPECTER - And were you able to observe any characteristics of his hair?

Mr. ROWLAND - No; except that it was dark, probably black.

Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?

Mr. ROWLAND - It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well! I must concur that the identification of the "Negro" at the window on the TSDB certainly had some bearing on the case. Especially since they (Williams/Harmon/ & Jarman) were photographed looking out the window below the firing position, as well as having clearly testified:

Mr. WILLIAMS. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something from the old building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If you want to know my exact words, I could tell you.

Mr. BALL. Tell us.

Mr. WILLIAMS. My exact words were, "No bull xxxx." And we jumped up.

Mr. BALL. Norman said what?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't paying attention.

Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from.

Mr. BALL. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he did.

Mr. BALL. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought it came from overhead, and you made some statement

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

Mr. JARMAN - Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway.

Mr. BALL - He had some white what, like plaster?

Mr. JARMAN - Like some come off a brick or plaster or something.

Mr. BALL - Did Norman say anything else that you remember?

Mr. JARMAN - He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL - Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection or anything like that, do you remember?

Mr. JARMAN - That was after we got down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL - What did you hear him say?

Mr. JARMAN - He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt, as it were pulled back, or something like that.

Mr. BALL - Had you heard anything like that?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I hadn't

Mr. McCLOY You have had military experience, haven't you?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY - But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt moving?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.

Representative FORD - When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, they all sounded just about the same.

Representative FORD - You distinctly recall three shots?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Representative FORD - McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years, two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a gunshot, either one of the three?

Mr. JARMAN - Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my mind then.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."

Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. NORMAN. Three.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?

Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I hear anybody moving, you know.

Mr. BALL. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And shells on the floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Falling?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots came from?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't recall of either one of them saying they thought where it came from.

Mr. BALL. But You did?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you said you thought it came from where?

Mr. NORMAN. Above where we were, above us.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any dust or dirt falling?

Mr. NORMAN. I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams hair.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about it?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway

Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.

Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:

"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."

Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Mr. BALL. I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of the rifle?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I heard them making a sound.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer this into evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 493 for identification, was received in evidence. )

Mr. McCLOY. You used the expression you heard the ejection. This refers to the bolt action?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Those are the same things?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is what I mean.

Mr. McCLOY. That is what you meant by that?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What language did you use when you talked to the Secret Service man, do you know? Did you say you heard the ejection or that you heard the bolt action? Which did you use?

Mr. NORMAN. I probably said the ejection.

Mr. BALL. That is what you think you said?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The same thing you said here?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember Friday that we conducted an experiment to see whether or not you could hear?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And where did you put yourself in order to conduct the experiment?

Mr. NORMAN. In the same window. I may not have been in the same position but I was in the same window.

Mr. BALL. The same window?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that window was open?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the window, was the window on the sixth floor also open?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; they told me it was open. I didn't see it.

Mr. BALL. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't he?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear on the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the rifle or whatever he had up there.

Mr. BALL. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. BALL. You could hear it clearly, could you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now there has been a new floor put in on the sixth floor, hasn't there?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The day that you were there on November 22, what was the condition of the ceiling and the floor of the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. I would say that you could see daylight through there because during the times they put the plywood down you can see the plywood, some portion of the plywood, so I would say you could see a little daylight during that time.

Mr. BALL. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What could you see on the ceiling?

Mr. NORMAN. There was one place I could see the plywood and then another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering through the crack.

Mr. BALL. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of the sixth and ceiling of the fifth. floor comes against the wall. Could you see daylight through there?

Mr. NORMAN. Against the wall?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight.

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0117b.htm

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_________

Therefore, in that regards, I must state that the testimony and relevance of the "Negro" persons who were in the TSDB and located on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting, has considerable "bearing" on the case.

Although at the time of the questioning of Rowland, it undoubtedly had little "bearing" on the person whom he observed in the TSDB holding a rifle.

However, Mr. Roland's testimony before the WC is quite revealing, and one should truly pay close attention to it, as they just may learn something relative to the shooting sequence.

Mr. ROWLAND - I don't know. A lot of people laughed. I don't know. But a lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. Then approximately 5 seconds, 5 or 6 seconds, the second report was heard, 2 seconds the third report. After the second report, I knew what it was, and--

Mr. SPECTER - What was it?

Mr. ROWLAND - I knew that it was a gun firing.

Mr. SPECTER - How did you know that?

Mr. ROWLAND - I have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime.

Mr. SPECTER - Can you describe the second sound by comparison with the first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire?

Mr. ROWLAND - The second to my recollection was identical or as closely as could be.

Mr. SPECTER - How about the third shot?

Mr. ROWLAND - The same.

Mr. SPECTER - Sounded the same to you?

Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.

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And, one most assuredly should not leave out the testimony of Amos Euins:

Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again.

So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Who started looking down that way?

Mr. EUINS. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, at the time the second shot was fired, where were you looking then?

Mr. EUINS. I was still looking at the building, you know, behind this--I was looking at the building.

Mr. SPECTER. Looking at anything special in the building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. I was looking where the barrel was sticking out.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear altogether?

Mr. EUINS. I believe there was four, to be exact.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot, if you remember?

Mr. EUINS. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, when the third shot occurred, Amos, let me ask you again, where were you looking then?

Mr. EUINS. I was still down here, looking up at the building.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building?

Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you still standing at point B?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When he pulled it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. I was still behind here, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you were standing at the first shot.

Mr. EUINS. Right here.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point B.

Mr. SPECTER. At point B, on 365?

Mr. EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.

Mr. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he fired on that fourth time.

Mr. EUINS. I was still behind point B.

Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the fourth shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, I ran this way,

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Mr. EUINS. No, sir. You see, I come from point B, and ran here, and told the policeman I had seen the shot, because they were looking at the railroad tracks. So he put me on the cycle and he went to here.

Mr. SPECTER. He put you on the cycle and took you where?

Mr. EUINS. Up to the front of the building.

Mr. SPECTER. The Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and then he called some more cars. They got all around the building. And then the policemen came from the tracks, and they got around the building.

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And, as can be seen from the above, the police were all over the "Grassy Knowl" area, giving the shooter more than adequate time to depart the shooting position, and were it not for Mr. Euins, there is no telling as to how much time LHO would have had to depart the scene.

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Mr. SPECTER. What did you think it was when you first saw it?

Mr. EUINS. I thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like it was a piece of metal to you?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe.

Mr. SPECTER. About an inch in diameter, would you say?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long was the piece of pipe that you saw?

Mr. EUINS. It was sticking out about that much.

Mr. SPECTER. About 14 or 15 inches?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then after I seen it sticking out, after awhile, that is when I heard the shot, and everybody started looking around.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, Amos, did you see anything besides the end of the pipe?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any other part of the rifle?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir--not with the first shot. You see, the President was still right along down in here somewhere on the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you saw it on the first occasion, did you think it was a rifle then? Or did that thought enter your mind?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about a year.

Mr. SPECTER. What is NDCC?

Mr. EUINS. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that ROTC?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, describe as fully as you can for us what you saw then, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Well, when he stuck it out, you know--after the President had

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come on down the street further, you know he kind of stuck it out more, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say then, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I would say it was about something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet?

Mr. EUINS. You know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. I can't understand you, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the trigger housing to stick out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. The stock and receiving house?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. EUINS. Down--what did you says Elm?

Mr. SPECTER. Elm Street?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; down Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in the direction of the President?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol16_0494a.htm

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Enough!

Now Bill, please show us ALL of the direct testimony and evidence made by witnesses at the scene on 11/22/63, which directly state as to having observed anyone with a rifle (or for that matter any other weapon) who was observed firing at/in the direction of the Presidential Limousine.

You really should concentrate on reviewing the direct witness testimony and statements as you just may learn something worthwhile.

[Lee Forman]

Just thought I'd throw in.

On the SS - Palamara has done, in my opinion, a fantastic job in his 'Survivor's Guilt' of demonstrating overt complicity. So why would I trust them with their 'handling' of the matter, from the perspective of their final assessment? Mr. Purvis - say the word and I will mail you my copy.

On the FBI - Hoover is enough to establish a serious lack of trust in anything that could have come from these quarters with regards to an 'investigation.' A book could be written, if it has not already, specifically on the FBI and it's involvement. Just for example, Regis Kennedy and his 'tomatoe salesman' report. What a laugh.

And I find it curious that so many are quick to ridicule anyone who puts faith in 'conspiracy theory' - at any level. It isn't simply a question of whether or not a 'conspiracy' existed - say in the case of Oak City - the underlying issue is a complete and utter lack of confidence in the US Government, and the Media it uses to perpetuate and promote it's propaganda. Seven millions times bitten, seven billion times shy.

"They lie....they lie and we have to be merciful...'

No thanks.

On the 'evidence' - what evidence are we speaking of here really?

On the medical, is it not clear that the information has been distorted, changed, altered, lost, etc.? Of course it is. I don't need to make a case for that here - Cyril Wecht has done a great job of demonstrating what was normal process, and how JFKs autopsy was nothing but. Just as a reference, Groden has a drawing which was done by Bethseda lab technician Paul O'Connor on what he saw during the autopsy. Kennedy doesn't have the right side of his head. Page 87, TKOAP.

On the 'trajectories' and having a background in weapons, and an understanding of how a bullet impacts a body - how significant is this really? If it isn't known specifically what weapons and ammo were used - how can anyone make any informed judgement calls about the wounds? Fire a few rounds at cadavers, as Wecht has suggested - use both jacketed 6.5mm rounds fired from a similar distance with a MC, and then fire a few from the front using an M1 Garand, or a Belgian FAL, for example, with frangible rounds - loaded with mercury, solder, phosphorous, etc. But you'll still be left with an officially tainted medical record anyway - so it would seem moot?

On the evidence of the number of shots in the plaza... I guess we should simply ignore it? Evidence that points to something like 9 - 14 shots?

On the photographic evidence - despite multiple issues, folks keep relying on the Zapruder film to draw all sorts of conclusions - blood spatter, movement of the body, etc. Get over it - stop using this as a 'clock.' Stop using it to draw conclusions which are faulty. Zapruder himself indicated a lack of trust in his own film afterwards. That was documented. In the 'AB Smith,' Groden version, the face literally separates from the head - it's been tampered with - it isn't real. The film doesn't match eye-witness testimony. It doesn't match what folks have indicated that they have seen in the films which are still carefully controlled.

Another point - Mr. Purvis, you seem to have respect and admiration for GPH, as I do. Mr Hemming has indicated that he was contracted as consultant to Oliver Stone for the film 'JFK.' He insisted on more than one shooter on the 6th floor. Also on a black individual for the DalTex as spotter - for historical accuracy. He later indicated to Tim Gratz that the spotter was none other than anti-Castro Cuban and Rip Robertson sidekick Nestor Izquierdo. Also, as posted here on the Forum, that one of the shooters on the 6th floor was a German, using a broom handled mauser. I am not clear on whose decision it was to go with the GKS location in the film or why. I do find it curious that Jack White was there - and yet his Badgeman location was not used. Jack has even indicated here that even if Badgeman was a shooter, if he fired a shot it would have been a miss. So - are you saying that Hemming is wrong? Are these his 'mythical' shooters?

But if we get down to brass tacks here - the evidence, photographic / medical / witness observations, etc. It's a distorted and complex soup. Much better to get information from folks that were there, or know what was going on, and as much as possible, from the genuine films of the event, and the folks that have seen them. The 'observers,' the 'recorders,' the 'surveyors,' folks with the real dope on the event, etc. Some of the folks as per Roy Hargraves interview with Noel Twymann - dropped in without a clue as to the assignment. Some shooters, as per one of my unidentified sources, scared xxxxless and unable to squeeze off a shot - perhaps when they realized who the target was. Maybe that is the reason for so many misses. Interestingly, aside from the bit folks here were posting on concerning another shooting op prepared at the DalTex, Palamara even has a possible at Love Field. And let's not forget that there were multiple ops planned and canceled throughout the US [and outside the US] prior to Dallas.

This was a major operation. I don't understand why some individuals want to continue to repress this fact. It involved a lot of local Texas resources, with a lot of outside assistance, primarily through the muscle of the day, which was largely anti-Castro Cubans and their associates. Ruby and his contacts. Somehow, some extremely serious Corsicans - through Canada and on to Mexico. The Plaza was carefully surveyed prior to 11/22. There were operatives all over - acting in different capacities, in different operations, in highly compartmentalized and code named fashion - and in different cover and disguised roles. There was radio communication, hand signals, frequency jamming, etc. Transportation. Fake identification. Money or the equivalent [heroin for example] for payment. Their slips showed all over the place. Weapons were placed before the operation. Weapons were removed upon it's conclusion. The SS allowed it to happen. The FBI assisted in the cover-up. Dallas assisted in the cover-up. The media assisted in the cover-up. LBJ assisted in the cover-up. Etc. Etc.

Let's get out of the dark ages here folks. Please.

I was hoping that perhaps ex-Intel, or ex-Ops, in seeing this thread, might consider helping me out, and provide me with some material I could use to support this thread. I still will hold out with that hope. I have no desire to bring anyone to 'justice' or seek to prosecute anyone involved. For me, I simply want to fill in the puzzle pieces and have a more historically accurate depiction of events - particularly of the op, which I find facinating personally. If I was able to get ahold of some of the actual photos of the event, I would keep the source confidential, and simply post it here, as advertised. For the record, anything I have been told to keep 'off the record,' has remained 'off the record.'

I would like to learn more about the '56 Pontiac. I would like to know how many Rambler Station Wagons were used in the operation. I would like to know why Altgens took so many photos of cars that afternoon and which cars they were. I would really like to see a record of the shooters of course, however, original and unaltered stuff would be a great second. If anyone has those photos, please let me know, or help me out by posting them, or letting me know where I might be able to source them from.

- lee

lforman23@comcast.net

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Just thought I'd throw in.

On the SS - Palamara has done, in my opinion, a fantastic job in his 'Survivor's Guilt' of demonstrating overt complicity. So why would I trust them with their 'handling' of the matter, from the perspective of their final assessment? Mr. Purvis - say the word and I will mail you my copy.

On the FBI - Hoover is enough to establish a serious lack of trust in anything that could have come from these quarters with regards to an 'investigation.' A book could be written, if it has not already, specifically on the FBI and it's involvement. Just for example, Regis Kennedy and his 'tomatoe salesman' report. What a laugh.

And I find it curious that so many are quick to ridicule anyone who puts faith in 'conspiracy theory' - at any level. It isn't simply a question of whether or not a 'conspiracy' existed - say in the case of Oak City - the underlying issue is a complete and utter lack of confidence in the US Government, and the Media it uses to perpetuate and promote it's propaganda. Seven millions times bitten, seven billion times shy.

"They lie....they lie and we have to be merciful...'

No thanks.

On the 'evidence' - what evidence are we speaking of here really?

On the medical, is it not clear that the information has been distorted, changed, altered, lost, etc.? Of course it is. I don't need to make a case for that here - Cyril Wecht has done a great job of demonstrating what was normal process, and how JFKs autopsy was nothing but. Just as a reference, Groden has a drawing which was done by Bethseda lab technician Paul O'Connor on what he saw during the autopsy. Kennedy doesn't have the right side of his head. Page 87, TKOAP.

On the 'trajectories' and having a background in weapons, and an understanding of how a bullet impacts a body - how significant is this really? If it isn't known specifically what weapons and ammo were used - how can anyone make any informed judgement calls about the wounds? Fire a few rounds at cadavers, as Wecht has suggested - use both jacketed 6.5mm rounds fired from a similar distance with a MC, and then fire a few from the front using an M1 Garand, or a Belgian FAL, for example, with frangible rounds - loaded with mercury, solder, phosphorous, etc. But you'll still be left with an officially tainted medical record anyway - so it would seem moot?

On the evidence of the number of shots in the plaza... I guess we should simply ignore it? Evidence that points to something like 9 - 14 shots?

On the photographic evidence - despite multiple issues, folks keep relying on the Zapruder film to draw all sorts of conclusions - blood spatter, movement of the body, etc. Get over it - stop using this as a 'clock.' Stop using it to draw conclusions which are faulty. Zapruder himself indicated a lack of trust in his own film afterwards. That was documented. In the 'AB Smith,' Groden version, the face literally separates from the head - it's been tampered with - it isn't real. The film doesn't match eye-witness testimony. It doesn't match what folks have indicated that they have seen in the films which are still carefully controlled.

Another point - Mr. Purvis, you seem to have respect and admiration for GPH, as I do. Mr Hemming has indicated that he was contracted as consultant to Oliver Stone for the film 'JFK.' He insisted on more than one shooter on the 6th floor. Also on a black individual for the DalTex as spotter - for historical accuracy. He later indicated to Tim Gratz that the spotter was none other than anti-Castro Cuban and Rip Robertson sidekick Nestor Izquierdo. Also, as posted here on the Forum, that one of the shooters on the 6th floor was a German, using a broom handled mauser. I am not clear on whose decision it was to go with the GKS location in the film or why. I do find it curious that Jack White was there - and yet his Badgeman location was not used. Jack has even indicated here that even if Badgeman was a shooter, if he fired a shot it would have been a miss. So - are you saying that Hemming is wrong? Are these his 'mythical' shooters?

But if we get down to brass tacks here - the evidence, photographic / medical / witness observations, etc. It's a distorted and complex soup. Much better to get information from folks that were there, or know what was going on, and as much as possible, from the genuine films of the event, and the folks that have seen them. The 'observers,' the 'recorders,' the 'surveyors,' folks with the real dope on the event, etc. Some of the folks as per Roy Hargraves interview with Noel Twymann - dropped in without a clue as to the assignment. Some shooters, as per one of my unidentified sources, scared xxxxless and unable to squeeze off a shot - perhaps when they realized who the target was. Maybe that is the reason for so many misses. Interestingly, aside from the bit folks here were posting on concerning another shooting op prepared at the DalTex, Palamara even has a possible at Love Field. And let's not forget that there were multiple ops planned and canceled throughout the US [and outside the US] prior to Dallas.

This was a major operation. I don't understand why some individuals want to continue to repress this fact. It involved a lot of local Texas resources, with a lot of outside assistance, primarily through the muscle of the day, which was largely anti-Castro Cubans and their associates. Ruby and his contacts. Somehow, some extremely serious Corsicans - through Canada and on to Mexico. The Plaza was carefully surveyed prior to 11/22. There were operatives all over - acting in different capacities, in different operations, in highly compartmentalized and code named fashion - and in different cover and disguised roles. There was radio communication, hand signals, frequency jamming, etc. Transportation. Fake identification. Money or the equivalent [heroin for example] for payment. Their slips showed all over the place. Weapons were placed before the operation. Weapons were removed upon it's conclusion. The SS allowed it to happen. The FBI assisted in the cover-up. Dallas assisted in the cover-up. The media assisted in the cover-up. LBJ assisted in the cover-up. Etc. Etc.

Let's get out of the dark ages here folks. Please.

I was hoping that perhaps ex-Intel, or ex-Ops, in seeing this thread, might consider helping me out, and provide me with some material I could use to support this thread. I still will hold out with that hope. I have no desire to bring anyone to 'justice' or seek to prosecute anyone involved. For me, I simply want to fill in the puzzle pieces and have a more historically accurate depiction of events - particularly of the op, which I find facinating personally. If I was able to get ahold of some of the actual photos of the event, I would keep the source confidential, and simply post it here, as advertised. For the record, anything I have been told to keep 'off the record,' has remained 'off the record.'

I would like to learn more about the '56 Pontiac. I would like to know how many Rambler Station Wagons were used in the operation. I would like to know why Altgens took so many photos of cars that afternoon and which cars they were. I would really like to see a record of the shooters of course, however, original and unaltered stuff would be a great second. If anyone has those photos, please let me know, or help me out by posting them, or letting me know where I might be able to source them from.

- lee

lforman23@comcast.net

Another point - Mr. Purvis, you seem to have respect and admiration for GPH, as I do

I have complete respect for the fact that Gerry Hemming is not some local yocal "wannabee".

He is, of my knowledge, possibly the only other poster (former poster) to this forum who may have actually been in combat operations.

And in that regards, Mr. Hemming was associated with many of those who were involved in the Cuban missions as well as the many smoke screens and the mere business/making money aspects of the Cuban operations.

In those regards, the input of Mr. Hemming is essential in order to complete certain "Links" in the chain as to who the assassination of JFK is directly traceable back to.

I was hoping that perhaps ex-Intel, or ex-Ops, in seeing this thread, might consider helping me out, and provide me with some material I could use to support this thread. I still will hold out with that hope.

Not certain as to exactly what "qualifications" you are searching for, however, if you knew anything at all about Special Forces Operations, then perhaps you would have a little better understanding as to exactly why I repeatedly reference the BS on the assassination. (see attachment)

the underlying issue is a complete and utter lack of confidence in the US Government,

It is unclear as to whether you are a US Citizen or not. If so, then perhaps you should find some other country/government that better suits your needs.

If not, then perhaps a comparison of your standard of living with that of most Americans may give you an answer.

As regards the "big" "bad" US Government. A grouping of a few politicians and lawyers (the WC) IS NOT the US Government.

It is an investigative body which is supposedly assembled to determine the facts. However, as all know, these investigative bodies are usually conviened in order to obscure some aspect of what they are supposedly formed to investigate.

So, is the WC an intentional misrepresentation of certain facts-aka-Lie?: OBVIOUSLY

Does mean that the entire Congress of the United States has lied?: NOPE.

Merely that a hand-selected grouping of liars was assembled by LBJ, for some yet to be disclosed reason, to obscure certain aspects related to the assassination as well as certain personal/personnel interconnections which could and would prove highly embarassing to certain politicians.

This was a major operation. I don't understand why some individuals want to continue to repress this fact. It involved a lot of local Texas resources, with a lot of outside assistance, primarily through the muscle of the day, which was largely anti-Castro Cubans and their associates. Ruby and his contacts. Somehow, some extremely serious Corsicans - through Canada and on to Mexico. The Plaza was carefully surveyed prior to 11/22. There were operatives all over - acting in different capacities, in different operations, in highly compartmentalized and code named fashion - and in different cover and disguised roles. There was radio communication, hand signals, frequency jamming, etc. Transportation. Fake identification. Money or the equivalent [heroin for example] for payment. Their slips showed all over the place. Weapons were placed before the operation. Weapons were removed upon it's conclusion. The SS allowed it to happen. The FBI assisted in the cover-up. Dallas assisted in the cover-up. The media assisted in the cover-up. LBJ assisted in the cover-up. Etc. Etc.

Let's get out of the dark ages here folks. Please.

The "dark ages" are those minds that are of the opinion that such operations can be kept quiet.

Perhaps damaged by watching to many re-runs of JFK and/or the "A-Team" on TV.

All in all, hope that you are young enough to weather another 43 years of confusion if you continue to pursue you beliefs, or whatever it is that you have been imprinted with.

Edited June 17, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis