RFK assassination program on BBC2, Nov. 20

[Wim Dankbaar]

The Cuban or Latin with (alledgedly) Campbell acts like a bodyguard. He seems to direct Campbell and is looking around.

Pity nobody recognized him.

Wim

Edited November 22, 2006 by Wim Dankbaar

[John Simkin]

The Cuban or Latin with (alledgedly) Campbell acts like a bodyguard. He seems to direct Campbell and is looking around.

Pity nobody recognized him.

Wim

The quality of the image makes it a little difficult to be sure but he looks like Julio Gran. Mmm.

James

[Pat Speer]

http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/

Read this from Lisa Pease.

Lisa Pease's work with Jim DeEugenio and PROBE always adhered to a very high standard. However, her comments on Shane O'Sullivan's work seem somehow lacking to me.

First of all, she has not yet seen the video. I suppose that, in and of itself, does not invalidate her opinions. But the fact that she does not even acknowledge Ed Lopez' positive identification of Joannides, speaks to the incompleteness of her evaluations, in my opinion.

This is what she writes about Joannides:

The other big red flag in this story is the suggestion that George Joannides would be there, or involved.

Consider:

1. I believe the CIA directed and controlled the assassination of John Kennedy. I think Joannides was involved in helping set up Oswald as a Communist through his role with the DRE (Carlos Bringuier of the DRE "fought" Oswald in the street, leading to Oswald's arrest and subsequent appearance on a televised debate, enhancing the "legend" (intelligence parlance for a false identity story) of Oswald as Communist rebel. But Joannides was a headquarters man, from what I gather. He was not a field operative. He has never been placed in Dealey Plaza, even though there's strong reason to believe he abetted the coverup and possibly helped orchestrate events from a distance. Joannides is a handler, a puppetmaster. And his region was Florida and the East Coast. If he was going to handle someone killing Bobby, the last place he'd be would be the site of the crime.

2. I believe Morales was likely involved in the Kennedy assassination. But with Jim Garrison concurrently conducting his investigation into the CIA's role in the assassination of John Kennedy that same year, that very month - why on Earth would anyone in the CIA been so stupid as to send someone involved in one assassination to commit another? It makes much more sense that a new team would be used - all new players. Different reporting structure. Different agents, assets, and cutouts. It makes NO sense that the team that had so botched the Kennedy assassination as to have given rise to a real life prosecution effort in New Orleans would be used again.

I'm sorry, Shane O'Sullivan. I really think you've been had.

In light of Lopez' positive ID, the above just seems weak and primarily just her speculation. Perhaps Lopez is mistaken, but Lisa Pease can do better than that if she wants to demonstrate him wrong.

Thanks to Mark for posting that link.

Pease makes a major mistake in her reasoning. In her assertion that the CIA would use different operatives to kill RFK she misses two HUGE reasons to think just the opposite. First, IF the CIA killed JFK they would want to keep the loop as small as possible and re-use the same men; the lives of these men would be at risk should RFK get elected and they would go along out of self-interest, if for no other reason. Second, she misses that it's entirely likely, even probable, that men like Morales were not working for the CIA when they killed Kennedy, but for the mob. Corruption is everywhere in American society. Most conspiracy theorists have no problem thinking LBJ took bribes from oilmen, and Dick Cheney took bribes from Enron. And YET, for some strange reason, the idea that Morales or Angleton or Hunt were on Trafficante's or Marcello's payroll when they helped to kill Kennedy (IF they helped to kill Kennedy) is not to be considered, even though it is one of the most logical scenarios. Somehow the idea that the men who killed the Kennedys were scumbags simultaneously trying to get paid and rid the world of some pinkos is not as appealing as the idea that a secret cabal of boogie men programmed like robots and with no thoughts of their own would kill the Kennedys for the benefit of the power elite. Well, guess what... original thought time... the mafia and the power elite are two sides of the same coin... and have been since the Mafia's earliest days in New Orleans.

Edited November 22, 2006 by Pat Speer

[John Simkin]

Pease makes a major mistake in her reasoning. In her assertion that the CIA would use different operatives to kill RFK she misses two HUGE reasons to think just the opposite. First, IF the CIA killed JFK they would want to keep the loop as small as possible and re-use the same men; the lives of these men would be at risk should RFK get elected and they would go along out of self-interest, if for no other reason. Second, she misses that it's entirely likely, even probable, that men like Morales were not working for the CIA when they killed Kennedy, but for the mob.

I agree with most of this (except for the last bit on the mob). Lisa Pease has her own agenda. She is more concerned with protecting the Kennedy image than in exposing the people who killed them.

[Ron Ecker]

From RFK's speech at the Ambassador:

Mayor Yorty has just sent me a message that we have been here too long already, and so my thanks to all of you and now its on to Chicago and let’s win there. Thank you very much

Was this a "joke," or did Yorty actually send RFK a message, saying that it was time for him to leave and, uh, head for the pantry?

This reminds me of the message that Will Fritz got while they were killing time interviewing Oswald: "Jack Ruby is ready and waiting in the basement."

[John Simkin]

So far there are 63 postings on the BBC Newsnight documentary. They appear to have removed my postings. They have refused to post my last contribution. Although Mel Ayton's posts seem to have any difficulty getting through.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/..._kennedy_1.html

I suspect it was because of my reference to Operation Mockingbird.

If you want a free and open debate on the documentary take a look at the AlterNet forum:

http://www.alternet.org/story/44551/?cID=327143#c327143

[John Simkin]

So far there are 63 postings on the BBC Newsnight documentary. They appear to have removed my postings. They have refused to post my last contribution. Although Mel Ayton's posts seem to have any difficulty getting through.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/..._kennedy_1.html

I suspect it was because of my reference to Operation Mockingbird.

It is amazing what a posting on the forum can do (plus an email to Shane O'Sullivan). I wonder how long it will be before Mel Ayton complains about my posting.

[Francesca Akhtar]

Hi James,

good job! Thanks for that, sure looks like him to me from the photo. The hairline and ear especially.

My next question is....who is he?

Anyone who you'd expect to be associated with the CIA or operations like this? (Francesca Akhtar)

Francesca,

Gran was one of the militant Cubans from Miami who mixed with all the usual suspects.

As an extension to this all, it should be remembered that Gerry Hemming puts himself at Sirhan's mother's house on the morning after the shooting. He recalls that Dick Hathcock was also there, the same Hatchcock who told about Loran Hall taking Hemming's rifle out of hock back in 1963.

In the Roy Hargraves interview published in Larry Hancock's book, he puts himself, Hemming and Lawrence Howard in Los Angeles at the time.

I guess another question is, did David Morales have an 'in' with the LAPD? A school friend of Morales', a man he remained close with over the years was Ruben Ortega who was the Phoenix Police Chief. I wonder if Ortega knew Thomas Reddin, LA Chief? Many years ago I asked Reddin about this but he never replied. He died in late 2004 so I guess we will never know.

James

Many thanks for the info James, you raise some interesting points re: possible connections with the LAPD. Something else occurs to me - if it was Morales in the ballroom, then perhaps he may be connected to the infamous polka dot dress woman who is also described as being of latin appearance and who in my opinion may also have been present in events in 63. This is pure speculation on my part and a big leap but it would make sense to me.

Look forward to reading the interview with Hargraves in Larry's book. I have just ordered it ad really can't wait to get it as I missed the first edition.

[Cliff Varnell]

* * *

"I believe the CIA directed and controlled the assassination of John Kennedy."

* * *

"Morales may have worked for the mob."

* * *

I don't buy any of this.

Morales/Phillips/Lansdale didn't work for an ENTITY -- "the mob," "the Agency."

etc.

They worked for a specific United States government POLICY: the military

overthrow of the Castro government in response to the Castro-ordered murder

of President John F. Kennedy.

The carefully sheep-dipped patsy survived to be captured alive, and thus the

operation of Eleven Twenty-Two failed in it's primary objective.

The invade-Cuba policy had much sympathy in the CIA, organized crime,

the Joint Chiefs, the Texas oil industry, the Dallas Police Dept., the FBI,

the office of the Vice President, the Secret Service, and others. How this

sympathy congealed into material support for the conspirators is a matter

of speculation.

But not one of those entities directed and controlled the assassinations, imo.

Morales, Phillips & Lansdale -- coup makers extraordinaire -- likely directed and

controlled the JFK assassination, with Morales likely responsible for arranging

Bobby's murder.

The assassination of Robert Kennedy had the (successful) primary objective

of PREVENTING a USG policy under a potential RFK Presidency -- the rigorous

investigation of his brother's murder.

Morales wasn't in the Ambassador Hotel as a hired hand -- he was there to

keep his own treasonous neck out of a noose.

Edited November 22, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Larry Hancock]

Those following this thread may want to look at the great Morales photo page

James Richards did for my book WEB site. You will find it at the address below

and I would caution that in 1968 the better reference photos for Morales are

probably at the lower right of the page..

http://www.larry-hancock.com/photos/p-ch08...es%20photos.jpg

-- Larry

[Pat Speer]

Look forward to reading the interview with Hargraves in Larry's book. I have just ordered it ad really can't wait to get it as I missed the first edition.

I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Larry had to cut the Hargraves interview for the second edition.

[Larry Hancock]

That's correct Pat, it was removed after consultation with Noel Twyman who had granted

permission for use in the first edition. Long time readers of this forum may recall

the probable cause but I'm not going to comment further in a public venue.

-- Larry

Look forward to reading the interview with Hargraves in Larry's book. I have just ordered it ad really can't wait to get it as I missed the first edition.

I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Larry had to cut the Hargraves interview for the second edition.

[James Richards]

Jim Braden...reported to have been staying across town at the Century Plaza when Kennedy was at the Ambassador. (Pat Speer)

In a letter to Frank Church, Braden was adament that he had nothing to do with anything.

At the time of the JFK assassination, he claimed he was seated in the United States Probation and Parole offices in the Dallas Federal Building. He offers up Probation Officer Roger Carroll and his secretary as witnesses.

When RFK was shot, Braden said he was in bed with his wife Jean De Sanders at the Century Plaza Hotel.

FWIW.

James

[Myra Bronstein]

Hi James,

good job! Thanks for that, sure looks like him to me from the photo. The hairline and ear especially.

My next question is....who is he?

Anyone who you'd expect to be associated with the CIA or operations like this? (Francesca Akhtar)

Francesca,

Gran was one of the militant Cubans from Miami who mixed with all the usual suspects.

As an extension to this all, it should be remembered that Gerry Hemming puts himself at Sirhan's mother's house on the morning after the shooting. He recalls that Dick Hathcock was also there, the same Hatchcock who told about Loran Hall taking Hemming's rifle out of hock back in 1963.

In the Roy Hargraves interview published in Larry Hancock's book, he puts himself, Hemming and Lawrence Howard in Los Angeles at the time.

I guess another question is, did David Morales have an 'in' with the LAPD? A school friend of Morales', a man he remained close with over the years was Ruben Ortega who was the Phoenix Police Chief. I wonder if Ortega knew Thomas Reddin, LA Chief? Many years ago I asked Reddin about this but he never replied. He died in late 2004 so I guess we will never know.

James

Many thanks for the info James, you raise some interesting points re: possible connections with the LAPD. Something else occurs to me - if it was Morales in the ballroom, then perhaps he may be connected to the infamous polka dot dress woman who is also described as being of latin appearance and who in my opinion may also have been present in events in 63. This is pure speculation on my part and a big leap but it would make sense to me.

Look forward to reading the interview with Hargraves in Larry's book. I have just ordered it ad really can't wait to get it as I missed the first edition.

From what I've read the LAPD was very, er, cooperative with the CIA. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a factor in city selection for the crime. I believe that the "Special Unit Senator," which was supposedly tasked with solving the murder--in reality opposite, was comprised of two former LAPD cops who had left to work for the CIA, then were loaned back to the LAPD.

It was a blatant CIA op and cover-up. The LAPD couldn't have been more helpful every step of the way. Canceling the APB on the polka dot woman, blocking radio communication at critical times, badgering key witnesses out their statements, the usual.

One thing that's interesting about the footage of the night at the Ambassador that's on youtube, is that we get to see firsthand that adage about only hearing the truth once in fascism. People are being interviewed real time and are very emphatic and clear about points like:

-Sirhan was a few feet in front of Kennedy

-More shots were fired than Sirhan's gun would hold

You can see quite a bit of pre-scrubbed truth on that footage.

[Robert Howard]

Jim Braden...reported to have been staying across town at the Century Plaza when Kennedy was at the Ambassador. (Pat Speer)

In a letter to Frank Church, Braden was adament that he had nothing to do with anything.

At the time of the JFK assassination, he claimed he was seated in the United States Probation and Parole offices in the Dallas Federal Building. He offers up Probation Officer Roger Carroll and his secretary as witnesses.

When RFK was shot, Braden said he was in bed with his wife Jean De Sanders at the Century Plaza Hotel.

FWIW.

James

As far as pertinent information goes, even though I do not have the book; in Noel Twyman's "Bloody Treason" Noel features interviews with Ruben [Rocky] Carabajal and attorney Robert Walton, if memory serves correctly. If any of this has been posted already [on this thread, I apologize] Most enlightening extemporaneous detail: The $10 Million Dollar pay-off from Nixon to the CIA [this information ostensibly in the Church Committee Report page 288] to prevent Salvador Allende from coming to power, and in Bloody Treason Twyman quotes Carabajal as stating that David Morales told him [Ruben] he pocketed 2 of the 10 million.

It would be nice to have that posted if it is deemed pertinent. I know the interviews were circa 1995. Just thought it was worth mentioning

Edited November 22, 2006 by Robert Howard