Behaviour of Members

[Guest Gary Loughran]

FWIW, having been to the USA 5 times, I have always found the folk there without exception to have been courteous and friendly. Except for the lady in Cherryhill mall who after thinking I was Australian and being corrected, asked where in Australia Ireland was

I've been to Boston, Queens, Ohio, Pennsauken NJ (about 5 minutes across the river from Philly) Washington amongst others.

Originally this began through a local priest offering me an all expenses paid trip to Ohio to play football (soccer) for the North East Ohio team in National tournament. Despite being much under the 19 age limit I went and fitted in well. I was offered a sports scholarship to Ohio State as a result of tournament performance (semi-finalists) and was within a phone call of accepting. All the groundwork had been done and at the very very last minute I got cold feet.

So all my experiences have been extremely positive.

The one unnerving aspect was in Washington DC, during a week I spent there in the early 90's. After doing the JFK funeral walk etc. we went back to our Super 8 motel close to the I95 (I think that's what/eher it was called). My friend and I then decided to spend a Friday night in town at an Irish bar of course!!! much later we ventured home on foot. Only to quickly sober up when we found ourselves in a black neighbourhood which exhibited extreme poverty. This alone shocked us, how could conditions be so poor, so close to such an afffluent and prestigious area, housing the residence of POTUS?

Anyhow, we ventured on to a McDonalds, where, upon arrival we drew great attraction and merriment (luckily) from the locals for being the only 2 white guys around. When my friend asked for chicken burger and chips (mcchicken sandwich and fries he should have said), it was like he was speaking Chinese, after a few minutes of pointing and explaining, a couple of locals intervened and sorted our orders out. I've no doubt, that like the rest of my experiences in the states, I was extremely lucky to meet well meaning folk at every turn.

As a footnote, on the way back on the plane, and this is a true story, a news item stated that 2 people had been found murdered and placed in a freezer in a McDonalds in Washington D.C!!!!!

Our tans (actually spot the visitor, lobster reds) quickly faded as we turned a deathly shade of pale.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Gary Loughran

[John Simkin]

I live in the US and I don't see the US you think you see. Having also traveled extensively, I see many of the same problems in other areas of the world, including the UK.

I would agree that there is sometimes a sense of fear in the BIG CITIES of the US, but this is also true of Paris, London, Hong Kong and many other big cities.

I'm proably a bit more familiar with the US than you are, and I think you are looking at it through your own biases.

Of course I am guilty of making subjective comments. That is what we do all the time. You are also guilty of being subjective, or as you put it, “looking at it through your own biases”. Anecdotal stories are interesting but they can only be used to illustrate the point you are making. When it comes down to it, my experience of New York or your experience of London, is fairly irrelevant to the argument that America is a more violent place that other industrialized countries.

As I pointed out, there is a considerable amount of statistical data to support this claim. For example, you have had for many years the highest murder-rate in the advanced world. You also imprison the highest percentage of your population than any other country. The state also carries out more acts of extreme violence on its citizens. The United States, alone amongst the Western World, retains the death penalty.

Have you got some alternative statistics to support the claim that other countries have a worst record for violence than the United States?

[Greg Parker]

FWIW, having been to the USA 5 times, I have always found the folk there without exception to have been courteous and friendly. Except for the lady in Cherryhill mall who after thinking I was Australian and being corrected, asked where in Australia Ireland was

Gary, there's something almost karmic about that. When Eroll Flynn first went to Hollywood, he was advised to say he was from Ireland... presumably because no one knew where the hell Australia was.

[Len Colby]

I live in the US and I don't see the US you think you see. Having also traveled extensively, I see many of the same problems in other areas of the world, including the UK.

I would agree that there is sometimes a sense of fear in the BIG CITIES of the US, but this is also true of Paris, London, Hong Kong and many other big cities.

I'm proably a bit more familiar with the US than you are, and I think you are looking at it through your own biases.

Of course I am guilty of making subjective comments. That is what we do all the time. You are also guilty of being subjective, or as you put it, “looking at it through your own biases”. Anecdotal stories are interesting but they can only be used to illustrate the point you are making. When it comes down to it, my experience of New York or your experience of London, is fairly irrelevant to the argument that America is a more violent place that other industrialized countries.

As I pointed out, there is a considerable amount of statistical data to support this claim. For example, you have had for many years the highest murder-rate in the advanced world. You also imprison the highest percentage of your population than any other country. The state also carries out more acts of extreme violence on its citizens. The United States, alone amongst the Western World, retains the death penalty.

Have you got some alternative statistics to support the claim that other countries have a worst record for violence than the United States?

I think two separate issues are being conflated 1) the inherent aggressiveness of a particular country or culture and 2) violence generated by social inequities. The latter isn’t really relevant as to why the rude behavior is on this (and perhaps other) forum stems primarily from Americans members. This is not to say they could be a connection between two e.g. more aggressive societies are less likely to resolve their social ills or less equitable societies are likely to be more aggressive.

One area in which Britons and other nationalities (Europeans and Latin Americans) demonstrate considerably higher levels of violence and aggression is spectator sports especially soccer (football) fandom. The vast majority English and Brazilian etc fans aren’t violent of course but I’ve never heard of fans of one teem attacking another in the US. On the other hand it’s not uncommon for students from large universities in the US to go on drunken rampages when their schools win a championship.

“Have you got some alternative statistics to support the claim that other countries have a worst record for violence than the United States?”

Straw man John, he never made such a claim.

[Len Colby]

That would be an improvement , Raymond, however it was only a couple of years ago. and the battered ole' b/w is probably still there.

Yes despite gentrification the sleazy side of New York only receded a bit and still lives on at the margins thankfully the city hasn’t been turned into a giant Disneyland yet and still maintains some of its character. Unfortunately however many of the quirky unique stores art galleries and music clubs have been replaced by Starbucks etc gnd many of the artists after being forced to move from one neighborhood to the other are now relocating outside the city they can no longer afford.

I lived in the city from when I was 5 till I was 18 and again from when I was 25 – 28 and visited there many times before and after. I was only mugged once and in certain sense was asking for it. A friend of mine and I while very drunk caught the G train going through Bed-Stuy (at the time the city’s most violent neighborhood) at 3 in the morning. This was in 1990 when the city was still quite dangerous. We were the only white people in our car, probably on the whole train, and were ‘held up’ by three guys with large box cutters and a group of about 10 friends sitting near by.

Another thing I found hard to fathom was a shop assistant trying to sell me a camera for 340 US which by the time I'd edged to the door and said no a number of times has dropped to 130 US. So I flew to Montreal and bought one there straight off the shelf, no haggling.

We call those places tourist traps. You can normally get better deals of the Net and have stuff deliver to your hotel, if you prefer buying in a store I recommed Andorama and B + H or other 'legitimate' stores.

[Len Colby]

FWIW, having been to the USA 5 times, I have always found the folk there without exception to have been courteous and friendly. Except for the lady in Cherryhill mall who after thinking I was Australian and being corrected, asked where in Australia Ireland was

Gary, there's something almost karmic about that. When Eroll Flynn first went to Hollywood, he was advised to say he was from Ireland... presumably because no one knew where the hell Australia was.

What ignorance everyone knows that Australia is between Germany, Italy and Switzerland!

Jokes aside a 9-11 CT once claimed that Barbra Olsen had been arrested on the Polish- Austrian border in 2005 carrying forged “Lyras”. Unfortunately the Italian currency, which was spelled Lira, had long since been supplanted by the Euro and Poland and Italy don’t share a border.

PS - Just where is Ireland anyway?

[Mike Tribe]

I'm not sure how this moved from the behavior of members to the behavior of Americans, but...

I've always found the Americans with whom I have had to deal generally friendly, helpful and good-natured (with the exception of immigration officers at the airport who would, I think, have been happier and felt more at home in Stasi uniforms). Londoners, on the other hand... When I was teaching in Iran during the Revolution, one of the teenage girls I taught went to London. She got a taxi from the airport. When he discovered she was Iranian, the driver order her out of his cab... I've generally found Londoners to be a pretty miserable bunch. It's probably due to overcrowding, pollution, the weather, a succession of conservative governments and the performance of national sporting teams. We Spaniards are much more relaxed, good-humored and laid back...

[Charles Black]

I may be wrong again of course, but I thought that this thread's purpose was to determine what could be done, in order to better our forum, in the light

of what appears to be the increasing and unnecessarily beligerant confrontations on this forum.

It has been suggested that since 100% of these acts which amount to a lack of civility, can be traced to American origin, that it seems to be quite probable that this results from the cultural deficiencies prevalent in our American (United States) membership.

Tho there has been a lot of parrying (myself included) with this issue, we seem no closer to arriving at solution than we are in JFK assassination research.

Are we still seeking solution or will this too slip downstream as an unresolvable ?

Perhaps a relaxation of the methods exemplified by "cultural superiority", may be in order to effectively deal with these types of persons who seem to have no interest in cultural uplifting.

Methods more akin to "subway behavior" may be required to impress this group of ruffians !

Physical extermination is out of the question because they apparently breed like rats.

What then can be done ? This discussion is no doubt impairing progress in the objectives of this forum !

Charlie Black

[J. Raymond Carroll]

PS - Just where is Ireland anyway?

Good question, and very topical. An international conference in Virginia a few years ago set out to find the answer, but their report is still being held secret. It looks like another one of those coverrup jobs.

http://www.re-imagining-ireland.org/essay_overview.asp

Edited February 7, 2007 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Ron Ecker]

I had to leave the United States to get rolled. (In Tijuana, Mexico.)

[Stephen Roy]

I live in the US and I don't see the US you think you see. Having also traveled extensively, I see many of the same problems in other areas of the world, including the UK.

I would agree that there is sometimes a sense of fear in the BIG CITIES of the US, but this is also true of Paris, London, Hong Kong and many other big cities.

I'm probably a bit more familiar with the US than you are, and I think you are looking at it through your own biases.

First off, forgive me for taking this topic off in another direction. I was bothered by your suggestion that violence is a part of American culture.

Of course I am guilty of making subjective comments. That is what we do all the time.

And I don't question your right to do so. I don't think you are seeing America as it really is. I think you are starting with the conclusion that it's a violent culture, and looking for evidence to support it.

You are also guilty of being subjective, or as you put it, “looking at it through your own biases”.

How so?

Anecdotal stories are interesting but they can only be used to illustrate the point you are making. When it comes down to it, my experience of New York or your experience of London, is fairly irrelevant to the argument that America is a more violent place that other industrialized countries.

Your original argument was that violence is a part of American culture.

As I pointed out, there is a considerable amount of statistical data to support this claim.

While statistics do not often tell the whle story, I'd be interested in some citation of these statistics, and in comparison with other nations.

For example, you have had for many years the highest murder-rate in the advanced world.

The US offers a great amount of personal liberty, and that includes firearms, which are too easily used in the heat of anger. But a great deal of this occurs in the big cities (of which there are many), in the drug/gang subculture.

You also imprison the highest percentage of your population than any other country.

I guess the idea is that they can't be out committing crimes if they're doing time.

The state also carries out more acts of extreme violence on its citizens. The United States, alone amongst the Western World, retains the death penalty.

The DP is still a topic of much debate here.

Have you got some alternative statistics to support the claim that other countries have a worse record for violence than the United States?

I'm not making that claim.

Like many Americans, I fear that those outside the US get a skewed picture of this country from "popular culture", mostly TV and films, and from sensationalist news reports which focus only on the bad things. By and large, Amercians are nice, happy, gentle people who are happy to live in this country and are striving to make it better. It certainly doesn't FEEL like a "violent culture."

[John Dolva]

I think most non americans here make a careful distinction between the average US citizen and the behaviour of the powers with the BFG's. Some of my best acquaintances have heard of nice americans. I think the brutality so widely displayed since the Kennedy assassination (see 'the killing of america' (possibly very hard to get in the US) and 'bowling for columbine') has served a purpose of limiting the arena americans really wish to be involved in , leaving the field open for the very elements that the rest of the world object to. For the sake of the rest of the world, take america back and rule it wisely.

Like Costner said in the end speech of JFK:

"All these documents are yours - the people's property - you pay for it, but because the government considers you children who might be too disturbed to face this reality, because you might lynch those involved, you cannot see these documents for another 75 years. I'm in my 40's, so I'll have shuffled off this mortal coil by then, but I'm already telling my 8 year - old son to keep himself physically fit so that one glorious September morning in 2038 he can walk into the National Archives and find out what the CIA and the FBI knew. They may even push it back then. It may become a generational affair, with questions passed down from father to son, mother to daughter, in the manner of the ancient runic bards.

Someday somewhere, someone might find out the damned Truth. Or we might just build ourselves a new Government like the Declaration of Independence says we should do when the old one ain't working

- maybe a little farther out West."

"An American naturalist wrote, "a patriot must always be ready to defend his country against its government." Well, I'd hate to be in your shoes today. You have a lot to think about. Going back to when we were children, I think most of us in this courtroom thought that justice came into being automatically, that virtue was its own reward, that good would triumph over evil. But as we get older we know that this just isn't true.

"The frontier is where a man faces a fact."

If the criticism of the USA and a consequent withdrawal from the forum reflects the character of US citizens then the criticism is very restrained indeed.

[Charles Drago]

How much collegiality is too much collegiality?

How many tender mercies were on display in Dealey Plaza that day?

If, as I have argued from podiums and soap boxes, we are at war with the killers of John Kennedy, then for what reasons other than the cynically tactical should we honor these people by treating them with civility?

Permit me to offer again what I've published in other media:

Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in this case who does not conclude that JFK was the victim of a criminal conspiracy is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.

Further, conspiracy in the murder of JFK is as verifiable an historical truth as is the Holocaust; and anyone in a position to know this truth who, in support of ulterior political and/or cultural agendas, chooses not to do so is spiritually akin to the Holocaust deniers.

As far as the "how" of the assassination is concerned, polite debate is as absurd as it is counterproductive to the pursuit of greater truth. The "who" and "why" questions remain on the table.

Bugliosi is to be pilloried by us. His JFK assassination-related opinions are deserving of not a scintilla of respect and must be treated as enemy propaganda. We must deny him and his ilk the illusion of a level playing field in the eyes of history, for he and his masters are targeting the historical record.

All they want is for history to dignify their lies. And if we cannot prevent this, how will history judge us?

[Charles Black]

Daniel Wayne...post # 147

It is wonderful to hear another "American" member of this forum who has not forgotten the fighting spirit which gave birth to the U.S., made it the greatest power that the world has ever known, in only a period of two and one half centuries, and upon several occasions, has been the primary reason that members here have the privilege of participating in, "what is theoretically", a FREE forum. Not to mention, we are participating with the privilege of using the English language....

rather than German, Russian or Asian.

If a lack of culture is a result of being a nation for only this incredibly short time span, I will gladly sacrifice it. The next time the "British" or any of our other "allies" are on the verge of being overwhelmed, overcome and literally "sunk".........

I feel that they should absolutely refuse salvation, unless that person with the life jackets meets their cultural and social criteria. I think many of you British members should band together and erect a colossal memorial to Mr. Neville Chamberlain. He was truly a cultural ideal.

Yes we lack culture ! We are the only nation who is so culturally deficient that we have maintained our right for citizens to bear arms. This "lack of culture" has given us the freedom to "bow" before no one at any time. Were this nation to ever be invaded, we have 300 million armed civilians. I personally own approximately a dozen and a half first class firearms. I am openly stating this so that you might more easily classify me as culturally sub-human.

By congratulating Daniel Wayne in the opening of this post, I in no way mean to infer that he shares in some of my uncultured beliefs....I therefore wish to spare him the animus that will no doubt be directed at me.

When I enrolled in this forum, I had no idea that an American enrolling had lesser stature and rights than "Old World" members.

I suppose that this type of ignorance is what a lack of culture must cultivate.

Charlie Black

[Jack White]

How much collegiality is too much collegiality?

How many tender mercies were on display in Dealey Plaza that day?

If, as I have argued from podiums and soap boxes, we are at war with the killers of John Kennedy, then for what reasons other than the cynically tactical should we honor these people by treating them with civility?

Permit me to offer again what I've published in other media:

Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in this case who does not conclude that JFK was the victim of a criminal conspiracy is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.

Further, conspiracy in the murder of JFK is as verifiable an historical truth as is the Holocaust; and anyone in a position to know this truth who, in support of ulterior political and/or cultural agendas, chooses not to do so is spiritually akin to the Holocaust deniers.

As far as the "how" of the assassination is concerned, polite debate is as absurd as it is counterproductive to the pursuit of greater truth. The "who" and "why" questions remain on the table.

Bugliosi is to be pilloried by us. His JFK assassination-related opinions are deserving of not a scintilla of respect and must be treated as enemy propaganda. We must deny him and his ilk the illusion of a level playing field in the eyes of history, for he and his masters are targeting the historical record.

All they want is for history to dignify their lies. And if we cannot prevent this, how will history judge us?

Welcome to the forum, Charles. I agree totally!

Jack