Bradley Ayers' THE ZENITH SECRET is out..

[William Kelly]

Bill, you never answered my question re why you thought I had never read what Ayers posted on a lady he calls Pearl, who may exist or may be a figment of his fertile imagination.

Right now I want to finish putting the nails into the "Pearl's father" story. Than you.

Besides, Miami is a three hour drive from here!

P.S. It took more than one phone call. I spent at least an hour searching the Internet re BG and his relatives and staff members to locate Mrs. Eisenhower.

So you're not going to take it any further and rest on your equally unsubstantiated conversation with a Mrs. Eisenhower.

I guess I'll just have to follow the other leads up myself.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

Bill wrote:

So you're not going to take it any further and rest on your equally unsubstantiated conversation with a Mrs. Eisenhower.

I guess I'll just have to follow the other leads up myself.

First, what do you mean re my "unsubstantiated conversation with a Mrs. Eisenhower"? The problem as I see it is 75% of what you write is ambiguous and unclear and I think deliberately so. Do you imply I never had the conversation? Or do you mean that I have not checked with anyone else re whether BG's chief of staff nows the names of people claiming to have worked for her FOR TWENTY YEARS! That's what Ayers claims the alleged Pearl told him.

And I stated I am going to write to Ayers to see if he can substantiate a word he wrote about that story.

But again, dear readers, don't hold your breath waiting for his reply.

[James Richards]

Bill,

I'd like to add another dimension here which may or may not be of interest. For some time I have been working an angle that was showing quite some promise. It revolved around right-wing writer Ralph de Toledano.

Toledano was originally a Nixon supporter but found himself working on the Goldwater campaign for president. He had complete access and ended up writing very favorable reports on the Arizona senator.

Toledano knew about the inner campaign workings as well as all the Goldwater aides at the time. Toledano allegedly also knew about the relationship between Goldwater and David Morales.

Unfortunately, this all came to a screeching halt when Toledano died earlier this year. He was 90. Toledano has several children who might be worth tracking down. Difficult task from the other side of the planet.

As a curiosity, Toledano was interviewed by Irv Kupcinet in 1962. From all reports, a rather fiery encounter. I have been unsuccessful in securing a transcript.

I have no doubts that Ayers' information is at least based in some fact. I submit 'Pearl' was an alias.

FWIW.

James

[Cliff Varnell]

And I stated I am going to write to Ayers to see if he can substantiate a word he wrote about that story.

But again, dear readers, don't hold your breath waiting for his reply.

I met a homeless guy in the laundromat who said he once worked for

the CIA in Afghanistan.

How does my relating that story, from a source who may or may not

be credible, reflect negatively on my credibility?

Similarly, isn't Ayers just relating something someone told him?

Strange game of "gotcha" ya got go'n here, Tim...

[William Kelly]

Bill wrote:

So you're not going to take it any further and rest on your equally unsubstantiated conversation with a Mrs. Eisenhower.

I guess I'll just have to follow the other leads up myself.

First, what do you mean re my "unsubstantiated conversation with a Mrs. Eisenhower"? The problem as I see it is 75% of what you write is ambiguous and unclear and I think deliberately so. Do you imply I never had the conversation? Or do you mean that I have not checked with anyone else re whether BG's chief of staff nows the names of people claiming to have worked for her FOR TWENTY YEARS! That's what Ayers claims the alleged Pearl told him.

And I stated I am going to write to Ayers to see if he can substantiate a word he wrote about that story.

But again, dear readers, don't hold your breath waiting for his reply.

Tim,

I'm just playing the same game you are. You say that "Pearl" is a figment of BEA's imagination, but when someone questions your "conversation" with Eisenhower, it's different, hea?

For some reasons I have more faith in BEA than I do in you.

Also, thanks for the additional background JR, and Cliff, for his little story.

And Cliff, are you sure that wasn't Tosh?

BK

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, you think I invented the conversation with Mrs. Eisenhower? Now, come on. I consider that an insult as well as a comment on your evaluation of character.

Re James' post, I too had considered that the alleged informant's name might not be Pearl. If that is the case, perhaps Ayers did talk to someone whose father was on Goldwater's staff but Mrs. Eisenhower correctly stated there was no staff member with a daughter named Pearl.

But I do not think the story worthy of credit unless Ayers names the staff member.

Moreover, as I said before, the entire saga is ridiculous on its face. As the story goes, this guy (let's call him Poppa) is a nice, conservative, law abiding guy. He is asked to go to Las Vegas where he picks up two suitcases of money from Maheu and Bonnano, neither one of whom was smart enough to use a "cut-out".

So even though decent law abiding Poppa has just accepted money from a well-known mafioso, he doesn't bother to ask BG what it is all about.

Then he delivers one suitcase to a CIA type in Dallas and one suitcase to CIA operative David Morales and mafioso Johnny Rosselli in New Orleans.

And after the assassination Poppa says nothing--ever--not even to the HSCA after Rosselli is dead.

But think about this: if this was mafia type money why was it going to the CIA? Was the CIA running out of funds? Remember, it was the CIA which had offered the Mafia money to kill Castro. And how come neither the CIAS nor the Mafia could supply a deliver boy? A little short-handed, perhaps? Why was Poppa never killed? Don't you think Robert Maheu and David Morales must have spent hundreds of sleepless nights worrying about whether Poppa was going to spill the beans that might send them to the electric chair?

Johhny Rosselli hung out in Vegas most of the time. Why would he need to have money delivered to him FROM Vegas?

I personally doubt the common sense of anyone who cannot see through this story. That's why i took the time to track down Mrs. Eisenhower. The story on its face is laughable.

[William Kelly]

Bill, you think I invented the conversation with Mrs. Eisenhower? Now, come on. I consider that an insult as well as a comment on your evaluation of character.

I thought we were evaluating BEA's character, and you said he made up "Pearl" as a figment of his imagination, and I now question whether you are making up characters too. Why is that an insult to you, but not to BEA?

Re James' post, I too had considered that the alleged informant's name might not be Pearl. If that is the case, perhaps Ayers did talk to someone whose father was on Goldwater's staff but Mrs. Eisenhower correctly stated there was no staff member with a daughter named Pearl.

But I do not think the story worthy of credit unless Ayers names the staff member.

If so why are you spending so much time on it?

Moreover, as I said before, the entire saga is ridiculous on its face. As the story goes, this guy (let's call him Poppa) is a nice, conservative, law abiding guy. He is asked to go to Las Vegas where he picks up two suitcases of money from Maheu and Bonnano, neither one of whom was smart enough to use a "cut-out".

So even though decent law abiding Poppa has just accepted money from a well-known mafioso, he doesn't bother to ask BG what it is all about.

Then he delivers one suitcase to a CIA type in Dallas and one suitcase to CIA operative David Morales and mafioso Johnny Rosselli in New Orleans.

And after the assassination Poppa says nothing--ever--not even to the HSCA after Rosselli is dead.

But think about this: if this was mafia type money why was it going to the CIA? Was the CIA running out of funds? Remember, it was the CIA which had offered the Mafia money to kill Castro. And how come neither the CIAS nor the Mafia could supply a deliver boy? A little short-handed, perhaps? Why was Poppa never killed? Don't you think Robert Maheu and David Morales must have spent hundreds of sleepless nights worrying about whether Poppa was going to spill the beans that might send them to the electric chair?

Johhny Rosselli hung out in Vegas most of the time. Why would he need to have money delivered to him FROM Vegas?

I personally doubt the common sense of anyone who cannot see through this story. That's why i took the time to track down Mrs. Eisenhower. The story on its face is laughable.

So laughable that you spend a day and a half trying to discredit it?

But you won't bother to check into much more easily verifiable leads like Gordon Campbell's boat, the helicopter company or the Air Force Base suspicious death report on Campbell's "Outside Man"?

Certainly Mrs Eisenhower, if she worked for Barry Goldwater, can supply you with the names and contact numbers of a half-dozen still living staff members who could also be questioned about who was Goldwater's liason to the Mexican-American community.

Why depend on one source?

When Shackley was asked about BEA's bonifides, he backed him up, and said BEA was one of 30 US Army officers brought in to train the Cubans, so besides BEA there should be another 29 or so equally knowledgeable witnesses to JMWAVE activities at that time, so we shouldn't have to rely on BEA for anything.

In addition, BEA gives intimate details of Shackley's secretary, who should be easy enough to track down and question, as she was young enough then to be still alive today.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, you wrote:

I thought we were evaluating BEA's character, and you said he made up "Pearl" as a figment of his imagination, and I now question whether you are making up characters too. Why is that an insult to you, but not to BEA?

It is obviously an insult to me when you accuse me of lying. Tell you what: will you agree to resign from further involvement in the JFK case upon proof that I talked to Judy Eisenhower and what she told me? And your insinuation that I "made up" Judy Eisenhower is a demonstration of your own silly ignorance. You can verify who she is and what she did on the Internet in less than five minutes. WHAT, YOU DID NOT DO THIS BEFORE LABELING ME A xxxx? YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY AND I SUSPECT THAT WAS ALSO A VIOLATION OF FORUM RULES.

I should add that I have not stated with certainty that Ayers invented Pearl. It is POSSIBLE there was a Pearl who lied to him. But clearly in violation of journalistic ethics he did nothing to verify her story.

Bill you wrote:

But you won't bother to check into much more easily verifiable leads like Gordon Campbell's boat, the helicopter company or the Air Force Base suspicious death report on Campbell's "Outside Man"?

Bill, if that is so easy to do, why don't YOU do it? Like I said, it's a three hour trip to Miami and I haven't been to Miami since we say David Talbot at Books & Books in Coral Gables.

Bill you also wrote:

Certainly Mrs Eisenhower, if she worked for Barry Goldwater, can supply you with the names and contact numbers of a half-dozen still living staff members who could also be questioned about who was Goldwater's liason to the Mexican-American community.

Why depend on one source?

I have asked Mrs. Eisenhower who was BG's liason to the Mexican-American community. I guess from there I could try to see if that man (I assume he must have had such a liason) had children. And your insertion of "IF" again shows your ignorance. As noted above, you can easily verify her position as BG's chief of staff.

I am also contacting another man who worked very closely with BG in that period.

Bill wrote:

In addition, BEA gives intimate details of Shackley's secretary, who should be easy enough to track down and question, as she was young enough then to be still alive today.

"Intimate?" Be careful how you put that, Bill. But where does that get us? I know from Gerry Hemming that Ayers indeed worked for JM/WAVE. I am sure that some of the things he wrote about JM/WAVE and its operations and personnel are true. But that does not mean that what he wrote about Pearl's father is true. And if indeed he lied about Pearl's father, that puts everything else he wrote into question. One cannot then believe ANYTHING he wrote unless it is independently verified.

Two other comments about his story: I understand that Rosselli was under intense FBI surveillance during the fall of 1963 and according to Scott Malone the FBI noted two meetings between Rosselli and Jack Ruby. Rosselli only ditched the surveillance shortly before the assassination. So why did the FBI not record the delivery of this suitcase by a man who may or may not have existed?

Second: re whether Pearl was not the actual name of Ayer's alleged informant, it is clear from what he writes that HE did not verify that his informant had a father who worked for BG.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

I have been critical (to say the least?) of Brad Ayers for not (apparently) attempting to verify whether the man the ALLEGED Pearl told him was his father was indeed a staff member of BG. I agree with the following statement with respect to the ethical responsibility of an investigative journalist/author:

It is irresponsible and ethically improper for a professional non-fiction writer to deliberately disregard information which would provide the reader a truthfully balanced perspective of the issues at hand. A legitimate investigator and credible journalist should present all the accumulated evidence, identify sources and their obvious or possible biases, and the circumstances under which the information was obtained.

Agreed, BK?

Note that Ayers did not identify his source. Calling an information "Pearl" is not identification in any sense of the word. The presumed reason for the identification is so that someone else can verify the source.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[William Kelly]

Bradley Ayers sworn statement.pdf

[Tim Gratz]

Thank you, Bill. I will write to him.

[Tim Gratz]

BK,

I was sorta, kinda waiting' to see if you agreed with this statement:

It is irresponsible and ethically improper for a professional non-fiction writer to deliberately disregard information which would provide the reader a truthfully balanced perspective of the issues at hand. A legitimate investigator and credible journalist should present all the accumulated evidence, identify sources and their obvious or possible biases, and the circumstances under which the information was obtained.

[Tim Gratz]

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote in post #68:

Moreoever, nothing in the tale indicates that Goldwater or Pearl's father knew, at the time the money was being delivered, what the money was intended for, nor that it played any role in the assassination. It is an interesting anecdotal tale that ultimately reveals nothing more than it contains. Cash gets couriered between Point A and Point B for purposes still unknown. Goldwater may very well have been told that it was for some other ostensibly legitimate purpose being pursued by CIA. So what?

Charles-Dunne clearly implies he read "the tale" as he calls it (I'd add the adjective "tall") but he's foolin' us all for Ayers writes on page 7 of Chapter 31:

My conversations with Pearl led me to believe that Sen. Barry Goldwater was at the heart of a [the?] conspiracy to elimate [the presidency of JFK].

Edited October 15, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

BK wrote in Post #75:

AND IN ADDITION, YOU ACCUSATION THAT BEA IS INTERESTED IN SELLING HIS BOOKS IS ALSO FALSE, SINCE HE IS HAS A NEW YORK LAWYER AND IS TAKING HIS PUBLISHER TO COURT AND IS NOT COOPERATING WITH THEIR MARKETING OR PROMOTING THE BOOK IN ANY WAY.

Bill, do you seriously Ayers spent years on his second book without any interest in selling it? What kind of nonsense is THAT? That equals some of the other nonsensical statements you have made in this thread.

Ayers may have a conflict with his current publisher but that does not mean that when he crafted Chapters 31 and 32 he was not interested in selling his book!

[Tim Gratz]

To Bill and Robert:

Have you ever heard of Omerta?

Does not the concept of Omerta demonstrate why the story Pearl told Ayers is ridiculous, assuming of course that such a lady was more than a figment of a fertile imagination.