Larry Hancock

Ben, the records act was a huge success - especially given that it included the ARRB, what we know now though its efforts as compared to what we had available when I started in this three decades and more ago is monumental. We certainly don't have everything we want but it would be wrong to slam it as unproductive.

Great to see you back Anna Marie!

Yes, he did speak at the Wecht conference and had exchanges with Bill Simpich and others there, perhaps Bill will post on that.

Oswald did say on a couple of occasions that he had begun thinking of actually going to Russia as earl as in his time Japan. Of course it can get pretty chilly during the Japanese winter as well. I would think that Robert's remark did indeed relate to his visit to Robert and his mother on leave after his return to the US, December time frame, and Robert might have noticed his having new and exceptionally heavy weather clothing at that time.

An FBI document contains the information that the DPD did polygraph Frazier the evening of the assassination, that he was shown the actual bag recovered from the TSBD and that he stated that it was no the bag he had seen Oswald carry that morning...which is indeed the most likely reason the DPD report itself was never entered into any official record...as Pat said above.

Thanks Ben, I was just thinking it might be "neater", interesting that he now feels that what he picked up did indeed look to be a match for CE399....and given his finding it on the back seat he certainly should have been suspicious of the official story all this time. If its CE 399 the entire official shooting sequence is bogus and he should have realized that should he not?

Well it certainly would be interesting if fragments and a virtually intact bullet were found in the rear seat, that bullet was put on a stretcher and taken into custody by the SS (removing it from local police custody which had legal responsibility for the investigation) and somehow that bullet then - like other material in reputedly in SS custody at different points - went missing while in Chief Rowley's custody and a Carcano bullet bullet emerged....(might even explain the FBI's furious search to turn up Carcano ammo that weekend). Its wildly speculative (but consistent with the description given of the bullet by those that saw it at the hospital) but it does make me wonder if Landis recalls the shape of the bullet he picked up - it certainly would be interesting if he had noted if it were "pointed" which might have been quite evident if it were generally undamaged.

Well said Richard, and aside from Plumlee and a couple of fiction books I have never seen any documentation (other than assertions in JFK literature) of the term "illusionary warfare" (military deception is a term which is used and the Army uses the term illusory concept in regard to psychological warfare) of such a specialty or of specific, related training under that name at Nag's Head or anywhere else. I would also like to see some documented support for both that term and also for an ONI Defector program targeted on Russia. That gets talked about frequently and seeing some actual source material would be really helpful.

Anyone serious about Cummings should dig into the book linked below; I discuss him and his role with (and later outside) the CIA at length in Shadow Warfare: https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Business-Cummings-Interarms-Trade/dp/0393017664

Joe I don't impose my ideas on anybody and yes I am saying the individual talking to the young women in one view, the same as seen in a separate photo closer to Oswald, is Beckham. He ways he was there, he says he observed Oswald, he provably worked in New Orleans and in that area at the time. If you want to bring somebody else in strictly based on appearance that's your call - personally I have always needed more than appearances to prove in a suspect for myself, but that's just me.

Just for reference, at the time of the photo Beckham had just gotten a new job at a radio station - as a disc jockey - and was considerably more "respectable" than previously. He also had a new, underage, wife and would shortly face morals charges over that. In an expanded view of the leafleting photo he can be seen talking with a group of young, very well dressed girls one of whom I suspect was his new wife. Admittedly speculation but it is one thing that would back up his assertion that he had encountered Oswald leafleting on the street. Given that context I'm still maintaining that the individual in question was Thomas Beckham.

Paul, I posted the links as background and context, the remark about the plane and flying to the Amazon was not my statement, rather it was from one of the articles I mentioned. I did not offer an evaluation of the book, simply gave some references for those who are interested in beginning their studies of it. Hopefully anyone reading the book will do the background work to bring it into context and attempt to corroborate it - or not. Fortunately in this instance there is a great deal of that background readily available.

For those who decide to dig into these claims, the good news is that the history, including work history, of Jerri Cobb of aviation and potential astronaut fame is well known, very public and well documented. That should give a good baseline for checking out the claims and proposition in the book: https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=CO010 https://medium.com/the-vintage-space/was-jerrie-cobbs-first-female-astronaut-good-girl-image-an-act-877c94428c55 https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/remembering-geraldyn-jerrie-cobb-pioneering-woman-aviator The final article listed has her buying an Aero Commander in 1963 but instead of Dallas flying it into the Amazon as a missionary pilot. So in this instance we have an individual who has a substantial public record for reference, not to mention prior historical studies and research on her life - contained in numerous other books.

You have two choices on virtual conference, the first allows you to watch live and come back in to access the conference recording until the end of November. The second allows you to do that plus download the whole conference once it is consolidated and made available - sometime in January. **** The "Virtual Conference Only" price will give you access to the conference online and access to rewatch the presentations until the 30th of November. ***** The "Virtual Conference and Digital Download" price gives you access to the conference online, ability to rewatch the presentations until the 30th of November, and the ability to download the digital files starting the first week of December. The virtual conference is not a live Zoom conference so you cannot ask questions directly, however there should be an option to submit questions to the speakers for a later reply; I'm not precisely sure how that will work this year, previously it was a conference Facebook page where speakers could respond to questions after their presentation - during the duration of the conference.

Seems I just can't help myself, what I had posted earlier reminded me about Vernon and a further search on he and Plumlee produced the following, with documents on Plumlee, from Carmine's research. https://www.tpaak.com/the-abort-team-story

Jim, I have no idea about the goodby part, I primarily posted this as an example of how long the Plumlee story had been going on and how it had been discussed in regard to the Ed Forum. It is important to recall that Bob Vernon originated a good bit of the discussion of both Files and Plumlee and that by the time it was all done admitted that he had arrived at the conclusion that both were making up things regarding their assassination related experiences - he admitted that in posts and personally to me in several related emails. As I recall that was after Vernon had essentially sold his rights on the whole thing to William D. The thread I posted also illustrates how the Files and Plumlee stories became "entangled" over time. It would be interesting to see when and in what fashion Plumlee first introduced Roselli as being on his flight and find out if it was after Vernon had released his video tapes on Files (and for transparency I rushed to the store to buy the Files tape myself, it was hugely sensational at the time). In any event I've issued my caution on Plumlee so I will leave it at that.

Gosh, I think this is about the first time I've seen someone reject doing research on a source making such spectacular claims. On the other hand a quick Google search shows a lot of contemporary stories which just take Tosh at face value so I suppose that's just where we are these days; its amazing how little fact checking is in any of them. Still, you might want to check this out since it harks back earlier days on this same forum and brings back several names from the past who used to frequent it - and the depth of the exchanges that were pretty routine back then. https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/gQ_b49XNSuE

Kirk, of course the versions vary as I said but basically he claimed that his flight carried various people and might have included actual participants in the attack i.e. Roselli. He claimed to be acting under some sort of covert military intel program as I recall, not CIA (although later claimed the CIA came to tell him the whole story about it all). His own vague abort assignment was never spelled out, he just sort of ended up in the Plaza. Giancana had nothing to do with his task. In one version he claimed to have been told that the govt. had specifics of the attack, which was supposed to occur on Main street almost in front of Ruby's club. But somehow that was compromised, they found out the plan had totally changed at the last minute but was still live...and yet nobody called off the motorcade or apparently warned Jack - who seemingly was cooperating to flush out the bad guys? If this all sounds weird, it certainly did to me but of course its too good a story for lots and can be meshed in nicely with some scenarios.

Sandy, you will have to do your own studies on this - I do have a document where Plumlee is talking to the FBI (while in jail) and brings up Martino, with no particular reason other than to tie himself to anti-Castro activities. You can start with a full search on the Plumlee documents at MFF, there are a bunch, maybe more than I originally collected pre-MFF. You may have to go to the internet archive to do a comprehensive search on Plumlee and his interviews, articles etc over the years. Definitely do your own research, nothing different on Plumlee than investigating any other self-proclaimed source, all I can offer is my own experience.

Kirk, over the years Plumlee did mention names of a couple of guys on the flight, including the pilot, but I did not take the trouble to record all this - at one point the story asserted that he and the pilot were both given a covert task of somehow aborting an attack on JFK but at that point with no details at all (no briefing on the motorcade or anything else). Yet rather than rushing downtown, to LOVE field or to meet some sort of covert local contact with more details, Tosh went to visit a relative (I think his mother) first and then later just appeared in the Plaza, having no operational contact or communications with anybody else. You really can't appreciate this all without all the versions of his story over the years, not even sure you can find them via google now but they were readily available about three decades ago when I was pursuing it.

Cliff, as far as I can recall, the first half dozen versions of Plumlee's flight and the "abort" team, where Roselli appeared at some point, never made any mention of Hunt at all. Nor did he mention Martino who he later began incorporating into it. I have no idea when and where Hunt showed up but Plumlee was skilled at embellishing his material by pulling in real names, material from JFK books and probably gossip as well.

We and I have been over and over Tosh Plumlee here in the forum. I was in contact with him and his family (daughter) back in the Compuserve JFK forum days, even invited her and her friends to present at a Lancer conference. Then I did extensive research in his documents (most of which consist of his asking to talk to the FBI while in jail for check kiting, aircraft theft or other such charges). I also did a chronological search of his statements about Dallas and it was obvious he had changed and elaborated his story over the years...considerably. I was never able to verify any of his so called intelligence contacts, even the really wild ones he sent me about being recruited at a small airport in the Dallas area (not Red Bird) before he could even fly. There is little doubt that eventually he did learn to fly and had an active life (after leaving his family) in smuggling and other sketchy affairs as a pilot. What really pulled it all together was his providing detailed stories about Dallas, the plans and the abort, with JFK and company knowing he was riding into an ambush - and taking Jackie along - and Plumlee getting all the details on it after the fact when a senior CIA officer flew down to Florida to go over it all and explain it personally to Plumlee. On the other hand he is a great story teller, very sincere, very flexible, extremely good at pulling elements from elsewhere into his narrative, and his story will never go away - its just too good and fits with two many scenarios promoted over time.

We have discussed the Vinson story here many times and I tried for some four years to pursue it with him directly, engaging with his lawyer many times but being refused access to Vinson himself - his lawyer had introduced the subject by showing up at a Lancer conference and asking for special permission to present something explosive; we allowed him to do that at a scheduled lunch break - afterwards he literally sprinted for the door and out the hotel with me trying to catch him. I did take a lot of notes though, many of which conflicted with certain elements of the story that jelled in his book. I investigated his full story extensively and there are a ton of holes in it, when his book came out I again requested via the lawyer to discuss it and was refused once again. In line with an invitation in his book I prepared a list of questions and issues and mailed it to him and received no response. There should be threads on this story here here but I'll just leave it to the point that I think he was sincere but mistaken on many aspects - but unwilling to actually have a dialog on the book and that overall it is yet one more diversion from actual events (and if anybody thinks you could land that aircraft on that riverbed in downtown Dallas right after the presidential assassination when people were so sensitive they were calling in complaints about a single engine prop aircraft at Red Bird revving its engine and have nobody notice, report on it I believe that would be a mistake).

Shirley Martin should be on the list right along with Mary Ferrell, Sylvia Meagher, and Connie Kritzberg

I would suggest Dallas newspersons including Penn Jones, Earl Goltz, and Connie Kritzberg as well, all suspected conspiracy and wrote about it.