Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

From my many viewings of the clip it appears that during Baker's last step his shadow runs almost parralel to the red line, to me it looks like Baker's foot will land on his shadow (alas, that dude in the suit blocks the view)... it appears to me that Baker looks like, at worst, he is on a collission course with 'red-line' woman, and, at best, will just avoid her on her left hand side.

 

Alistair,

Baker's left foot will indeed land on his shadow. Because the bottom of the shadow that we see is from his left foot! But I guess you mean that it looks like it will hit the middle of his shadow.

Here is what I suggest you do. Watch Baker's left foot in the gif below. First he lifts it. You can't really see the lifting because his foot is hidden behind Very Tall Man. But after his foot is lifted, it goes forward by a few feet before the video ends. Now, watch where his foot is the whole time we can see it. It is ALWAYS right in the middle of the blue and gray lines. Right? I think a bit closer to the blue line than the gray.

The point is, his foot moves parallel to the sidewalk. Not toward it. If Baker's foot were moving toward the sidewalk, it would have to be moving parallel to the red line! Or close to it. (Here's a tip: When observing the direction Baker's foot is moving, be sure to totally ignore his shadow. Otherwise you might be influenced by the way it moves.)

When Baker's foot drops back to the ground, it will land on  the blue line. I mean it has to. It started on the blue line, was lifted up several inches, and then moved forward parallel to the blue line (because it is above it). When the foot drops back down those several inches, it must do so on the blue line again.

(NOTE: We don't really see Bakers LEFT foot on the blue line before it is lifted. We see the tip of his RIGHT foot on the blue line, just barely poking out from behind Very Tall man. But when people are running, their left and right feet both hit very close to the mid-line of their body projected to the ground. It's only when walking slowly that their feet are spread apart.)

Now, put the tip of your mouse pointer on the intersection of the red and blue line. Knowing that Baker's foot must come back down on the blue line, you can see that he MUST cross over the red line before his foot drops down. You see, he is running perpendicular to Running Woman's red path.

.

Maximize window to enlarge!

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Now, put the tip of your mouse pointer on the intersection of the red and blue line. Knowing that Baker's foot must come back down on the blue line, you can see that he MUST cross over the red line before his foot drops down. You see, he is running perpendicular to Running Woman's red path.

.

 

 

Ok, following you so far... and I just put my mouse pointer on the intersection of the red and blue line...

With where the mouse pointer is on the intersection of the red and blue line, the blue line extending to the right (as we look at it) denotes the line that Baker will continue to run on? Is that correct?

Regards

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Sandy, I see what you are saying and I understand it mostly. I get what you are saying that when Baker "is first running across the street, he is pretty much running in the direction of his shadow" , and I get that the (red-line) woman is "running to the postal box that is to the right of the TSBD steps". And I reckon you have " placed the grey line correctly".

To start with, to me, it does look like Baker is running towards the same thing the red-line woman is running too - (the mailbox) to the right hand side of the steps...

I suggest you focus on the direction Baker's foot moves. I have a feeling your focusing on -- or at least being influenced by -- the movement of Baker's shadow. Which doesn't seem like a bad thing. But an hour ago I looked at Bakers shadow myself and was surprised to find that it doesn't seem to be moving closer to the red line! I was surprised to see that.

It didn't make any sense for a number of reasons. One of them is that Baker seemed to be moving forward by a few feet (like 4 feet), yet his shadow moved just several inches... up the curb. But not closer to the red line! How could Baker move four feet and his shadow move only something like six inches??

So I spent a couple hours studying the video, single stepping through it, trying to figure out what was going on.

One thing I discovered is that my "4 foot" estimate of Baker's forward movement was no good. By the time he moves 4 ft forward, Very Big Man is blocking the view.

Another factor is that the image isn't perfectly stable. My red, blue, and gray lines are perfectly stationary, but the image jumps around. As a result, Baker's shadow would approach and get close to the red line, and then pop away from it.

As a matter of fact, I single stepped through the whole film and looked for the top of Baker's shadow. Then I single stepped and observed that it DID follow the curve in the blue line as expected. Not that the top of the shadow was on the blue line. It was between the blue and gray line, and followed the SHAPE of the blue line, even as the blue line veers to the right. The top of the shadow ended up in between the blue line and gray line.

And that's when I discovered something else I had misunderstood. I thought that the reason the shadow rises up the face of the curb is because Baker is getting a little closer to the curb. Not so! The reason it rises up the curb is because Baker leaps into the air on that last step! (Actually he leaps with each step, I imagine.) It is his leaping that raises his shadow up the face of the curb.

So Baker's shadow really is moving toward the red line. It's just that I expected it to be moving faster. (Because it does move fast up the face of the curb.)

So the bottom line is that the top of the shadow does move closer to the red line, and in fact it gets very close, and then pops away due to the image jerking. It doesn't cross the red line till after Very Big Man blocks the view.

Sorry for all these details.

At the bottom of this post I will post an animated gif where the shadow can be seen following the shape of the blue line.

What I don't see yet though is Bakers shadow bends when it crosses the gray line What I see is as Bakers shadow moves towards the grey line, I see 'red-line' woman's left shoe rise...

From my many viewings of the clip it appears that during Baker's last step his shadow runs almost parralel to the red line, to me it looks like Baker's foot will land on his shadow (alas, that dude in the suit blocks the view)...

it appears to me that Baker looks like, at worst, he is on a collission course with 'red-line' woman, and, at best, will just avoid her on her left hand side.

Remember, you can see the butt of Red Line Woman. Just like you can see the butts of the others crossing the street. Even Baker's butt at first, before he veers right. (I think. Maybe he's obscured by other people.) But on Bakers last step you can't see Bakers butt. You see his side view.

Remember also, if you watch the direction Baker's foot is going, it moves right in the middle of the blue and gray lines... parallel to them, and thus parallel to the sidewalk. His foot does not move parallel to the red line. Everybody walking across the street is moving parallel to the red line.

On the last step we see Baker making, is his forward foot not his right foot? To me it looks like the right foot. Thus his next step would be forward on to his left foot... I can see how with that and with his forward momentum Baker could avoid the red line woman on her right hand side (which would be consistent with him NOT running to the steps)...

If Baker' is 6ft from the curb, and his shadow is rising the edge of the curb, with the momentum of running forward will his next step not take him over the curb? (or at least closer to it?)...

I'm just not fully understanding the part of the blue line that runs almost parralel to the grey line (starting from the point where Bakers trailing leg is hidden by the 'tall-guy'). I don't see how that part of the blue line can be Baker's path; if it is indeed his right foot, and on his last step seen his right foot will land on the blue line, I don't quite understand how his left foot on his next step can also land on the blue path because of his forward momentum.

First, speaking of Baker's trailing leg hidden by Very Tall Man, you can see the toe of that foot sticking out just a couple or three inches. If you single step back and forth it is obvious that that is Baker's toe. So the blue line goes through that point. And so we know for sure that the blue line is curving to the right up to that point.

After that point we cannot see where Baker's other toe will set down. It is blocked by Very Big Man. But if you draw a straight line through the path that the toe makes -- which is up a few inches in the air -- you will see that that line is parallel with both the blue and gray lines. Or close to it. That is how I knew where to extrapolate the blue line to.

I've said this a couple times before, but if Baker were moving toward the sidewalk, the path of his foot would be parallel to the red line, not the gray and blue lines.

To me it's quite obvious that the motion of Baker's foot is close to parallel to the gray line and blue lines, and not parallel to the red line at all. If you see it being parallel to the red line, I don't know what else I can do.

*If the end of the blue line was moved up to the grey line (or actually) just above it, I could buy in to that being Baker's path (and that would still have Baker heading NOT to the steps and also avoiding the red line woman to her right hand side.

Well you can do that if you want. (Though I'd prefer you figure it out and see it the way I do. Or I'd figure it out and see it the way you do.) As a matter of fact, I believe I drew the blue line a little too parallel to the gray line. I think it should really be aimed a little more toward the sidewalk. But not a lot more. I didn't fix it because, with the online software I used to make the gifs, it is a VERY tedious job to edit.

As for Baker potentially running into Running Woman, I don't see how that could happen because she is ahead of him. But maybe you're thinking that, with his much greater speed, and with him running more toward the sidewalk that what I believe, that collision could happen.

Sandy, honestly, I'm not trying to be argumentative on this point, I am trying to perhaps help you out a bit. (It's just that I see something of a problem with the part of the blue line that runs parallel to the grey line being Baker's path, and I don't feel you have noticed what that problem might be. )

No actually I can't see the problem. I wish I could. Regardless, I want to thank you very much for spending time trying to understand my presentation. It means a lot to me, even if you never quite get it. (Or if I never quite get it.)

Regards.

 

Here the gif where you can see the top of Baker's shadow as it follows the shape of the blue line around the curve.

When Baker first starts to run, over on the left side, focus your eyes on Very Tall Man, just to his left and a little above the blue line. Wait for the shadow to appear and then follow it. Follow the top of it. You'll see that at first it moves to the right and also toward the sidewalk. It follows the curve of the blue line as it veers to the right. It almost makes it to the red line before Very Big Man blocks the view.

If you look for it, you'll see that the tip of the shadow almost touches the red line, and then it pops back. Due to the image not being perfectly stationary.

Maximize window to enlarge!

 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Alistair Briggs]

37 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Sorry for all these details.

No worries, everything you said above that I understand what you are saying. Always happy to have details.

 

47 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well you can do that if you want. (Though I'd prefer you figure it out and see it the way I do. Or I'd figure it out and see it the way you do.) As a matter of fact, I believe I drew the blue line a little too parallel to the gray line. I think it should really be aimed a little more toward the sidewalk. But not a lot more. I didn't fix it because, with the online software I used to make the gifs, it is a VERY tedious job to edit.

As for Baker potentially running into Running Woman, I don't see how that could happen because she is ahead of him. But maybe you're thinking that, with his much greater speed, and with him running more toward the sidewalk that what I believe, that collision could happen.

Btw, I don't think that Baker would collide with 'running woman', I think she is far enough ahead for Baker to avoid her.

Interesting to hear that you believe you drew the blue line a little too parallel to the gray line - ok - I will factor that in on my viewing - the blue line should be aimed a little more towards the sidewalk, but not a lot.

I took a screen shot at the point where most of the lines are off to the right of the clip, and crudely drew in a blue line that was aimed a little more towards the sidewalk.Is something like this what you mean? Or more than that? Or less than that?

[Paul Trejo]

On 1/23/2017 at 6:30 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Interesting to note that the two guys in the foreground are looking up a the upper floors of the TSBD.

Were they reacting to the sounds of gunshots coming from up there, or were the watching the pigeons land on the window sills?

--  Tommy

Tommy,

Yes -- what is most interesting to me is that there were immediate reports from eye-witnesses to DPD cops that some shots came from the TSBD 6th floor, but it took the DPD cops 40 minutes to finally get to the 6th floor and "find" the murder weapon.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 26, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 1/23/2017 at 7:09 PM, Michael Clark said:

If I were a cop I would assume a couple things.

-Other cops are going to be right behind me, so the the front door will be covered in short order.

-The bad guy is not going to be headed towards the front door.

-The bad guy is going to be leaving from the rear or side, if he is leaving.

-I am going to have to knock people around, pretty severely, to get through that mess of  People.

Mike,

Yet consider it from the viewpoint of the DPD cops who actually testified for the WC.   There were only two cops who thought the shots came from the TSBD, and the rest thought the shots came from the Grassy Knoll.   The DPD cops and deputies all ran to the Grassy Knoll, only to find more DPD cops and deputies there.  (That should have been a clue to everybody from the start.)

Officer Marrion Baker was one of two DPD cops who thought that the shots came from the TSBD, and he felt absolutely certain that the shots came from the roof of the TSBD.

So, he sped his motorcycle from the corner of Houston and Main, and parked it near the TSBD, and ran up the steps of the TSBD as fast as he could.   Chris provided a timeline, which agrees with Officer Baker's own testimony and stopwatch re-timing of his run -- 30 seconds.

Sandy provided a video clip of Baker running to the TSBD steps.  I think we are on solid ground here.

Baker also testified that he noticed almost all the other DPD cops running to the Grassy Knoll.  He said that he believed he was the only one who was running up to the roof of the TSBD, and he didn't feel he had any time to explain anything to anybody.

Even Roy Truly asked Officer Baker -- "Why do you want to get to the TSBD roof, when everybody else believes the shots came from the Grassy Knoll?"   Officer Baker didn't take the time to explain -- he just demanded -- "Get me up to the roof, now!"

Just to be clear -- I believe that Officer Baker and Roy Truly told the truth to the WC, and that they really met LHO on the 2nd floor, near the kitchen, drinking a Coke.  (The only real issue I have left with Prayer Man is that he must walk from the TSBD steps to the 2nd floor kitchen with his Coke in time to be stopped by Officer Baker and Roy Truly.  It is actually possible, since Baker-Truly both testified that they lost some time at the 1st floor elevator.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 26, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

[deleted]

Edited January 26, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Why does your blue line make a turn right before getting to the curb?

Because:

1. Baker's last two footsteps -- where they hit the asphalt -- veer to the right.
   
   I connected his footsteps with curves (spline interpolation) rather than with straight lines (linear interpolation.) Linear interpolation may be more accurate for someone running, since a runner can change direction only when his foot is on the ground. But I prefer  spline interpolation because it looks better (the path is smooth) and people's paths are usually plotted that way. (See below for examples of linear and spline interpolations.)
    
2. The final step (where Baker's toes hit the ground) cannot be seen because of a guy standing in the way of the camera. However, the path of Baker's foot leading to that step can be seen and plotted. And because of that the location of his final step can be closely approximated.
   
   So I plotted the path of Baker's foot, projected that down to the pavement, and drew the blue line there. I then extended the blue line a short distance to my approximation of the final step location. Finally I extrapolated the line straight out from there.

 

BTW here's an example of linear interpolation:

and here an example of spline interpolation

 

 

 

[Michael Clark]

23 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mike,

Yet consider it from the viewpoint of the DPD cops who actually testified for the WC.......

....... It is actually possible, since Baker-Truly both testified that they lost some time at the 1st floor elevator.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

To me, Baker looks more like he is running by than running to the steps. I just look at sandy's argument and make a decision as to how it looks to me; I try not to get too into it.

As far as testimony goes, I don't want to call anyone a prevaricotor, but the WCR as a unit is a lie and there is too much solid info that there was tremendous fear, intimidation pressure and outright falsification, omission and deletion of accounts to just accept everyone's story at face value. There were enough people there, looking and pointing at the TSBD to influence Baker's actions. 

I cant discount the story of the  5th floor guys eating lunch who heard shots fired, the ceiling shake and dumping debris on them to not think that a gun was fired as a diversion, and part of the set-up, on the 6th floor.

Prayer man looks like LHO to me, he looks like he is chatting with Frazier. I can't believe that Frazier was unaware of anyone standing in that position. LHO said he was on the steps at the time. Frazier going to the basement to eat lunch is bizarre. He is too close to Oswald to believe, without solid evidence, that he was not wrapped up in all of this somehow. No one would be able to put a gun in my car, and tell me it was curtain rods, without me knowing better or at least being suspicious.

Perhaps Frazier was helping a conspirator from the basement, maybe dealing with guns, or providing communications from the phone distribution board in the basement. It just doesn't make sense that he went down there for lunch at that time. His body language doesn't jibe with how an innocent man would look or act at that time. 

I know other forum members are much more careful and detailed when presenting an argument, and that is good. I'm not presenting an argument. I'm just making observations that are not studied. Observations can be helpful in finding truths and eliminating non truths. Certainly you can't eliminate a point or possibility that has not been considered.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Ok, let's just say that I can see the shadow beside the runinng woman's left shoe.

It looks to me that his right foot is following his shadow, and that when his right foot lands on the ground (which we can't see because of 'Suit Man') it will land pretty much at the point his shadow rises on the curb and because of that it appears to me that Baker looks like, at worst, he is on a collission course with 'red-line' woman, and, at best, will just avoid her on her left hand side.

I don't see how his right foot will land on the blue line that is parralel with the grey line... and even if on his last step seen his right foot will land on that blue line, I don't quite understand how his left foot on his next step can also land on the blue path because of his forward momentum.

Regards

 

Alistair,

In the animated gif below, draw a line that follows Baker's toe. Then tell me, is that line parallel to the gray line (the curb) or parallel to Baker's shadow.

The answer is the gray line.

You probably don't want to draw a line on your monitor. Instead stick a post-it note on the monitor and align the edge of the paper with the path of Baker's toe. The edge of the paper will be roughly parallel to the gray line. That is the direction Baker's foot is moving. And so that is the direction his body is moving.

Maximize window to enlarge!

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Alistair -  Did not Sandy say that Baker was running in line with his shadow?  If so, then Baker's right step ... it will step in his shadow and his street shadow is not on the blue line but clearly above it.

And I still want to know why the blue line bends just before the curb???

If anything I said that when Baker begins to cross the street, he is running in the direction his shadow is pointing. Because ALL the people crossing the street are walking or running in the direction their shadows are pointing to. Roughly speaking.

 I also said the when Baker begins to cross the street you can see his butt. Same as you can see the butt of everybody crossing the street.

In both cases I was going on memory and wasn't sure.

I just now checked and you can't really tell if Baker, at the beginning, is running in the direction his shadow is pointing. Because his shadow is obscured by lots of people. However, you can see his butt when he first begins to cross the street.

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Ok, following you so far... and I just put my mouse pointer on the intersection of the red and blue line...

With where the mouse pointer is on the intersection of the red and blue line, the blue line extending to the right (as we look at it) denotes the line that Baker will continue to run on? Is that correct?

Regards

Well, it is only correct  (and only an approximation, though a pretty good one) up to the point where I approximate Baker's foot is going to touch down. (At the time the camera is blocked by Very Big Man.)

My blue line extends out even beyond that, to the east. That extension is an extrapolation that assumes Baker will continue running in the same direction as in his last step, as we see it.

That is not a very good assumption. But I believe it would be considered the best assumption.

If you see a duck flying north, then close you eyes for a couple seconds, and then open them, where would you bet $10  the duck is going to be? I would say further north than it was before. But really, the duck may well have changed course.

I'm no statistician, but I'll bet that the odds really are greatest that the duck will still be flying north. Not being a statistician, I cannot explain why that would be the case. It's just my gut feeling. As an engineer I've used extrapolation numerous times to predict an outcome and have had generally good success doing so. Probably because my intuition tells me what things can be predicted and what things cannot be.

I probably should never have drawn that extrapolation in. I did so because it is something an engineer would do and something that other engineers would understand and agree to. We'd all know it's a guess.

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

No worries, everything you said above that I understand what you are saying. Always happy to have details.

 

Btw, I don't think that Baker would collide with 'running woman', I think she is far enough ahead for Baker to avoid her.

Interesting to hear that you believe you drew the blue line a little too parallel to the gray line - ok - I will factor that in on my viewing - the blue line should be aimed a little more towards the sidewalk, but not a lot.

I took a screen shot at the point where most of the lines are off to the right of the clip, and crudely drew in a blue line that was aimed a little more towards the sidewalk.Is something like this what you mean? Or more than that? Or less than that?

Yeah, that is pretty much what I wished I had drawn.

The whole reason for this ambiguity is that I had to estimate where Baker's final footstep hit, the one obscured by Very Big Man. I believe it is a very good estimate. But as you can readily see, being of by just a little can change the path from being parallel to not being parallel or vice versa.

[Alistair Briggs]

2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

To me, Baker looks more like he is running by than running to the steps. I just look at sandy's argument and make a decision as to how it looks to me; I try not to get too into it.

As far as testimony goes, I don't want to call anyone a prevaricotor, but the WCR as a unit is a lie and there is too much solid info that there was tremendous fear, intimidation pressure and outright falsification, omission and deletion of accounts to just accept everyone's story at face value. There were enough people there, looking and pointing at the TSBD to influence Baker's actions. 

I cant discount the story of the  5th floor guys eating lunch who heard shots fired, the ceiling shake and dumping debris on them to not think that a gun was fired as a diversion, and part of the set-up, on the 6th floor.

Prayer man looks like LHO to me, he looks like he is chatting with Frazier. I can't believe that Frazier was unaware of anyone standing in that position. LHO said he was on the steps at the time. Frazier going to the basement to eat lunch is bizarre. He is too close to Oswald to believe, without solid evidence, that he was not wrapped up in all of this somehow. No one would be able to put a gun in my car, and tell me it was curtain rods, without me knowing better or at least being suspicious.

Perhaps Frazier was helping a conspirator from the basement, maybe dealing with guns, or providing communications from the phone distribution board in the basement. It just doesn't make sense that he went down there for lunch at that time. His body language doesn't jibe with how an innocent man would look or act at that time. 

I know other forum members are much more careful and detailed when presenting an argument, and that is good. I'm not presenting an argument. I'm just making observations that are not studied. Observations can be helpful in finding truths and eliminating non truths. Certainly you can't eliminate a point or possibility that has not been considered.

 

Cheers, Mike

Mike,

I am totally with you on the 'Observations can be helpful in finding truths and eliminating non truths', and I agree that one 'can't eliminate a point or possibility that has not been considered'.

Couple of things from your post that I would like to make mention of (I have bolded them above)...

"LHO said he was on the steps at the time"

I have seen that said by people many times. I have also seen it said that at the time of the shots LHO was out front with Shelley. The thing is I have never actually seen where LHO said those things. There are two things I have seen about where LHO was at the time of the shots - each came from a different 'interrogation' of LHO (more details here)

1) "I was having lunch about that time on the first floor,"
2) He said that before he could finish what he was doing, all the commotion surrounding the assasination took place, so he said, "I just went on downstairs" to "see what it was all about."

The part about 'being out front with Shelley' can be found in the same interrogation, and not long after the 'I was having lunch about that time on the first floor'

Quote

"Why did you leave the Depository after the shooting?" Fritz asks, returning suddenly to the present. The questions are coming from all angles now, but Oswald handles the changeups with ease.
"I went out front and was standing with Bill Shelley," Oswald tells him, "and after hearing what happened, with all the confusion, I figured there wouldn't be any more work done the rest of the day, so I went home. We don't even punch a clock."

Although none of that necessarily stops Prayer Man being Oswald it has to be noted that twice when asked where he was at the time of the shots Oswald didn't say he was on the steps at the time; once he said he was on the 1st floor eating lunch and then went up to the 2nd floor, and the second time he said he was on a higher floor and went down to the 2nd floor. And the only time he made mention of being out front with Shelley was at the point he was leaving the building (after the 2nd floor encounter, not before).

As I said, that doesn't necessarily preclude Prayer Man being Oswald. As you say it does look like it might be him, and it does look like Prayer Man looks like he is chatting with Frazier. And I am with you on the believe that Frazier was unaware of anyone standing in that position is odd...

With the consideration that Oswald didn't actually say he was out front at the time of the steps it might just give another view on things.

...

"No one would be able to put a gun in my car, and tell me it was curtain rods, without me knowing better or at least being suspicious."

I agree with that, but would add the caveat that it would be only if they turned up 'blind' on the Friday morning with the package.

That's not what happened though, and as such, from the point of view of Frazier, he would have no reason to not know better or no reason to be a bit suspicious on the Friday morning, because of what his expectation would be - his expectation on the Friday morning would be that Oswald would have a package with him and that package would contain cutrain roads... Normally Frazier would only give Oswald a lift home (to the Paines) on a Friday after work, and only give him a lift back in to work on a Monday morning. On the Thursday (the day before the assassination) Oswald asked Frazier for a lift home that day, Frazier was actually a bit 'surprised' at such a deviation from the normal routine and actually asked Oswald why, that was when Oswald told him that it was to pick up curtain rods for his apartment. Frazier gave Oswald a lift home (to the Paines on the Thursday after work). On the Friday morning Frazier would expect Oswald to be bringing a package with him and he would expect that package to be 'curtain rods'...

Here is a relevant part of Frazier's testimony...

Quote

Mr. Ball - Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it wasn't.
Mr. BALL - It was on a Thursday.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Was that the 21st of November?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Well, tell us about that.
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"
And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."
So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"
And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You know, put in an apartment."
He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders.

Regards

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

If anything I said that when Baker begins to cross the street, he is running in the direction his shadow is pointing. Because ALL the people crossing the street are walking or running in the direction their shadows are pointing to. Roughly speaking.

Roughly speaking ... that is nonsense. Peoples shadows are cast by the sun regardless of which direction they are walking. You merely plotted a course on the street from point A to point B without any consideration to the skewed view due to Darnell's location. One would think after the discussion and examples that were posted concerning how misleading Zapruder and Altgens skewed views were when it came to the witnesses spacing to one another Vs. when seen against the Bronson photo ... that this might be considered in your location of Baker in relation to the stairs in Darnell's film.

 I also said the when Baker begins to cross the street you can see his butt. Same as you can see the butt of everybody crossing the street.

That is because of the location of the camera in relation to those people.

In both cases I was going on memory and wasn't sure.

That I am aware of.

I just now checked and you can't really tell if Baker, at the beginning, is running in the direction his shadow is pointing. Because his shadow is obscured by lots of people. However, you can see his butt when he first begins to cross the street.

Seeing any portion of the Patrolman's butt does not tell someone the exact route he ran. The further from the camera Baker travels - the more of his butt will be seen. Many people's backsides are seen and yet just a few degrees difference between witnesses would offer a different path traveled if plotted against two reference points. It's like the difference between two people being turned ... one at 12 o'clock from the camera and 12:03 ... the difference is minimal when starting out at point A, but can make a big difference where they are from each other at 40' further away. Your people and shadows seem close together from Darnell's skewed view, but if you were behind those people then you would see them as being much further apart. Again I reference the Bronson photo against the Altgen's photo and Zapruder film.

The only thing that can be determined is that where Baker's shadow turns upward on the curb wall is where he will cross from the street to the sidewalk. All else is what we used to call Fetzer's claims of Assassination Science = Junk Science. It's like when someone claims that Frazier and Montana didn't see Baker pass by them - it means little if the two witnesses didn't see Baker even cross the street. Yet when a witness does recall seeing Baker go up the stairs, then anyone anti-Baker will immediately take the position that the witness must be lying. And when Frazier says the officer could have came up the stairs while his attention could have been elsewhere such as looking to the west towards the sounds of the shots or sizing up Prayer Man, then Frazier is said to be lying. I honestly think that if someone pulled grandpa's old home movie films out of his closet and found that one of the films was taken of the front of the TSBD at the assassination and from a different angle so to show Baker and Truly doing just what they claimed they had done, then immediately that film would be being claimed to be a fake/altered.

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Bill Miller