Question for Doug Caddy

[William Paris]

so we have the Zapruder film, the "other" Zapruder film, and this "Hunt/Sturgis" film. They've got to be out there somewhere...

[Douglas Caddy]

When Detective James Rothstein and Fonzi talked some time after the event below, Fonzi was shocked when he realized that he had been taken in by Sturgis' telephone call and apologized to Rothstein. Fonzi performed heroic service in the cause of justice but even he was not infallible:

In the morning of October 31, 1977, Halloween day, Det. Rothstein received a call from Paul Meskil, a reporter for the New York Daily News. Meskil was beside himself. Monica Lorenz, the daughter of Marita Lorenz, had just been arrested in front of her apartment on York Avenue in possession of a loaded gun. She was to be the last line of defense for Marita. Monica was hiding in the bushes in front of the apartment building on Eighty Eighth Street and York Avenue; she was going to ambush Sturgis when he showed up to kill Marita. Meskil knows that the only two Detectives he can trust are Rosenthal and Rothstein; he knows they will not back down or be stopped. The Detectives notified members of the New York Senate Select Committee on Crime, their present assignment, of the call. They jump into action. They first call the arresting officer of Monica and verify that the arrest had been made for possession of a gun. They then set up a meeting with Marita Lorenz and Paul Meskil at a small restaurant on the East Side.

They all meet at the restaurant at approximately 1100 am. Marita verifies what Meskil had told the Detectives. She was very up-set, anxious, and scared. She feared for her and her children’s lives. Marita tells the Detectives that she is scheduled to testify at the House Assassination Hearings in Washington, DC, concerning the assassination of John F Kennedy. Meskil tells the Detectives that he is in possession of a tape recording made of a conversation between Marita Lorenz and Frank Sturgis; the tape is hidden at his residence in Nassau County, New York. In the tape Sturgis tells Marita, “You know what the rules are and what happens if you talk.” Meskil tells the Detectives to pick up the tape at his house and that his son would give the Detectives the tapes. Meskil tells the Detectives that he will be leaving for the Far East as soon as our meeting is over. At approximately 100 pm, the Detectives leave the restaurant with Marita and go to her apartment on Eighty Eighth Street and York Avenue.

When Detectives Rosenthal, Rothstein, and Marita enter the apartment, the detectives do a quick canvass of the apartment. They see 10 to 15 boxes sitting against the wall in the dining room. The rest of the day and early evening were spent interviewing Marita in preparation for the arrival of Sturgis. Marita tells the detectives that the boxes contain documentation concerning OP40, the Cuban invasion, Castro, planning for the Kennedy assassination, and other covert operations that she had knowledge of. These documents were going to be delivered to the House Assassination Hearings. The Detectives believe they have more than sufficient evidence to arrest Sturgis.

On October 31, 1977, at approximately 2130 hours Det. Mathew Rosenthal and Det. Jim Rothstein arrested Frank Sturgis when he came to assassinate Marita Lorenz, a witness to the planning of the Kennedy assassination. When Sturgis rang Marita to gain entry to the building, Rosenthal and Rothstein assumed their position. They crouched low next to the door with their guns drawn and their shields pinned to their suit jackets. When Sturgis entered the premises, Rothstein placed his gun in Sturgis’ mouth and shouted, “Police! You’re under arrest mother xxxxer; don’t move.” Sturgis mumbles, “I hope you’re Detectives.” Rosenthal had his gun put to Sturgis’ chest and identified himself as a Police Officer. The Detectives searched Sturgis. Once the Detectives knew that the scene was under control, Rothstein congratulates Sturgis for assassinating John F Kennedy. Rothstein tells Sturgis that he was present when Kennedy ordered the bombing and support to stop, just as the invasion of the Bay of Pigs began. Sturgis says, “The only way you can know that is if you were on the Essex.” Rothstein replies, “Yes, I was.” Rothstein and Sturgis shook hands; they were both professionals and were doing their job.

Detectives Rothstein and Rosenthal questioned Sturgis for approximately two hours at Marita’s apartment before taking him for booking at the local precinct. During this time, Sturgis was very frank with the Detectives. He admitted that he was on the Grassy Knoll at Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas, when Kennedy was assassinated and that he was one of the shooters from the Grassy Knoll. The Detectives received valuable information from Sturgis. Sturgis tells the Detectives that OP40’s mandate was “to protect our country at all costs.” When Sturgis was asked why Kennedy was assassinated, he told the Detectives that there were three reasons. Number one was that Kennedy had double-crossed OP40 in the Bay of Pigs Invasion by pulling back the support. Number two was that he (Kennedy) had been told to stay away from the women, especially the Russian woman, Ellen Rometsch, because he would be compromised and jeopardize national security. Number three was that Kennedy was destroying the black community through his liberal social programs.

The second part of the questioning was about his involvement in the Watergate Break-in that occurred on June 17, 1972. Sturgis was one of the five burglars arrested by Sgt. Paul Leeper, Det. Carl Shoffler, and Det. John Barrett, of the Washington D.C. Police Department. Sturgis said it was a set-up from the start, there had to have been a rat on the inside who sold them out. Sturgis said the break-in was to get the “book” that had the names of clients who used the prostitution and pedophile ring operating out of the Democratic National Headquarters. This information was to be used to compromise both Republican and Democratic clients who used the ring. The break-in led to the fall of President Richard Nixon on August 8, 1974. President Nixon had nothing to do with the planning of the break-in. In fact he had no prior knowledge that the break-in was going to occur.

Later Shoffler would tell Rothstein that he had somebody on the inside and had received information that the break-in was going to happen. Shoffler’s tour had ended one and a half hours before he made the arrest. In 2012, Robert Merritt called retired Det. Rothstein and stated that he was Shoffler’s informant. In a book written by Robert Merritt, Watergate Exposed, he tells the tale of the break-in.

When Sturgis was taken to the local precinct the Detectives identified themselves and told the desk lieutenant that they were booking Frank Forini (Sturgis’ real name). They took Sturgis to the Detectives room and began processing the arrest. That’s when things got strange. Rosenthal advises Sturgis of his rights. Sturgis asks to make a call, which Rothstein does. He tells Rothstein to call Gaeton Fonzi, the investigator in the House Assassination Hearings. Rothstein is surprised, that a suspect would call the investigator and he is the suspect. When Fonzi answers the phone, Rothstein identifies himself and tells Fonzi that Sturgis is under arrest and wants to talk to him. Fonzi was dumbfounded. (See The Last Investigation, by Gaeton Fonzi, page 103). Shortly after the call was made the desk officer calls the Detectives to inform them that a Frank Nelson (CIA and Organized Crime in Cuba) was at the desk and was looking for Frank Sturgis, and, if in, fact Forini was Sturgis. The answer was yes. Within minutes all hell broke loose. Every big boss in the Police Department was calling to find out what happened. The Detectives finished booking Sturgis and were requested to report to the offices of John Guido and Harold Hess, two of the top bosses involved in this type of case. When the Detectives arrive at Guido and Hess’s office they are asked if they had anything eat. The Detectives said no. Hess sends out one of his staff to get a six pack of beer and sandwiches. He asks the Detectives, “Is it good and clean arrest?” The Detectives say, “Yes, it is and it is solid.” Hess replies, “Good that is all I want to know.” The Detectives advise Guido and Hess of what happened. Rosenthal and Rothstein are asked to arraign Sturgis and go home and get some rest.

At the arraignment of Frank Sturgis in Manhattan Criminal ADA Broomer is assigned to the case. The Detectives inform Broomer of the tape corroborating the allegations made by Marita and Meskil. Broomer asks the Detectives where the tape is. They inform Broomer that they will pick up the tape at Meskils residence in Nassau County on their way back to the city from their residences. Early the next morning all hell breaks loose again. Unknown members of the New York City Police Department went to Meskil’s residence to get the tapes. When Meskil’s son answers the door, he sees that it is not Detectives Rosenthal and Rothstein. The son calls the Nassau County Police Department and tells them that somebody was at his door trying to take evidence of the Kennedy assassination. Nassau County Police responded in full force. The New York City Cops were sent packing.

Detectives Rosenthal and Rothstein are notified by Guido and Hess of what happened; somebody had sand-bagged them and they should immediately proceed to the Meskil residence and retrieve the tapes. Rosenthal and Rothstein meet with the son at Meskil’s residence and the son was so proud that he had protected the tapes for Rosenthal and Rothstein, as his father had told him to do. The son gives the tapes to the Detectives. The detectives knew what was coming; the cover-up was started.

Detectives Rosenthal and Rothstein take the tape to ADA Broomer’s office and the tape is played. Marita and Meskil were right. Sturgis is heard telling Marita, “You know what the rules are and what happens if you talk.” Broomer and the powers to-be decide that is not a threat. The Detectives argue vehemently that it is clearly a threat and you have to be totally stupid if you don’t understand that. The Detectives know the fix was in. The charges against Sturgis were dropped.

The boxes of files in Marita’s apartment were hand delivered to the House Assassination Hearings in Washington DC by Marita Lorenz and retired Det. Bobby Polachek, who had been a partner of Det. Rothstein at the 26 Precinct.

Subsequently, Rosenthal, Rothstein, and the City of New York were sued by Sturgis for $16 million for making a false arrest. The case was tried by Judge Leonard Sand in the Federal Court in the Southern District of New York. Sturgis was represented by Henry Rothblatt. Rothstein was called as the last witness late in the day. He was sworn in by the judge and the case was adjourned till the next day. As Det. Rothstein was getting ready to leave the court house, he was warned by unnamed sources that his life was in danger and that he should not go home. Det. Rothstein called one of his informants, who lived in the neighborhood near the court house, and asked her for assistance. She was connected to organized crime figures in the same area. Det. Rothstein left through the back door and was safely taken to an apartment by his informant and her friends.

The next morning, Det. Rothstein took the stand to testify. Before anything was said, Judge Sand was summoned to his chambers. After an hour or so, Det. Rothstein was called to the Judge’s Chambers. Det. Rothstein was asked what it would take for him not to testify. Everybody in the courtroom, especially the media, knew Det. Rothstein was going to let it all hang out. An agreement was reached that the City Of New York was going to pay $2,500.00 to Sturgis and Det. Rosenthal and Det. Rothstein were to be commended for acting above and beyond the call of duty. Judge Sand advised Det. Rothstein that he would be called in front of the bench and, if Det. Rothstein wanted to make a statement, he could say anything he wanted to say. Det. Rothstein realized it was in his best interest to keep his big mouth shut. As Rothstein turns to leave the courtroom, Sturgis and Rothblatt shake Rothstein’s hand and asked if he would be part of their organization. Rothstein replies, “It is an honor for you to ask, but I cannot do that.” He left the courthouse.

THE AFTERMATH:
Sometime during the summer of 1983, Retired Detective Rothstein was sitting at the bar in Georgia’s Bar and Restaurant at 722 South Wellwood Avenue, Lindenhurst, New York talking to customers. A well-dressed man, wearing typical “spook” attire, came in and sat next to Rothstein. He introduced himself as a former New York City, police officer who had moved to Florida. During an hour conversation he told Rothstein that when Detectives Rosenthal and Rothstein arrested Frank Sturgis he was sent with a “bag of money” from Florida to get Sturgis out of jail. He did not say where the money came from. He knew all the facts about Sturgis. Rothstein has never seen or heard from him again and never knew why he came in the first place.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20008&page=2

[Larry Hancock]

I suspect Sturgis or for that matter Hunt could fool anyone and everyone for at least a time....which is why accepting any of their remarks without solid independent corroboration - and a whole lot of contextual background - is highly risky IMHO. After talking with Fonzi at some length, certainly he became increasingly conscious that attempting to deconstruct Sturgis was a major challenge.

[Douglas Caddy]

JFK, Sturgis, Hunt and The Bay of Pigs

Jack Anderson’s interviews

[Paul Brancato]

And what was in the boxes of documents delivered by Lorenz to the HSCA?

[Douglas Caddy]

Paul: Here are two relevant passages from Detective Rothstein’s report cited above:

“Marita tells the detectives that the boxes contain documentation concerning OP40, the Cuban invasion, Castro, planning for the Kennedy assassination, and other covert operations that she had knowledge of. These documents were going to be delivered to the House Assassination Hearings.”

“The boxes of files in Marita’s apartment were hand delivered to the House Assassination Hearings in Washington DC by Marita Lorenz and retired Det. Bobby Polachek, who had been a partner of Det. Rothstein at the 26 Precinct.”

Retired Detective Rothstein today lives in Minnesota, where he is town mayor.

He had occasion to ask Judge John Tunheim, now a federal judge in Minnesota, about his assessment of Marita’s files after they were delivered. Tunheim, whose biography below describes his role and responsibility, expressed amazement and stated he had never seen Marita’s files, which apparently were rushed out the back door by the CIA a short time after their delivery. The files have not been seen since.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Tunheim

[Paul Brancato]

Which makes those files significant.

[Larry Hancock]

Not to be a pain in the rear but perhaps someone might speculate on what sort of documents Lorenz could conceivably have. She had done several news interviews and she did give testimony to the HSCA which rejected her story citing no corroboration. At the risk of being seen as cynical, her remarks indicate documentation on:

" OP40, the Cuban invasion, Castro, planning for the Kennedy assassination, and other covert operations that she had knowledge of" . These documents were going to be delivered to the House Assassination Hearings.”

Documents on OP40 and the Cuban invasion would pretty much have to be CIA documents. Given her history - mistress to Castro, work as a hostess in Miami for social events primarily involving Latin American diplomats, tourists, etc - having a child to a Latin American dictator in exile, launching a 1963 paternity suit against said individual and being pursued by Miami photo journalists for stories relating to the paternity suit, into the fall of 1963 (I have cover photos of her from Miami papers) what sort government / specifically CIA documents could she possibly have held? Does that make any sense at all? As to documents related to planning the JFK assassination....was anybody really writing down notes on that and giving copies to a lady who in a highly public legal action and a very photogenic object of the local media? And other covert operations? To be objective, I suspect that Lorenz could well have thought that a number of things that Sturgis talked to her about might have been government covert operations - that was his standard line. Perhaps she had notes from him, motel or travel receipts etc? But apparently she did not take anyting along when giving her HSCA testimony?

I just can't fathom what sort of real documents she might have....any suggestions?

[Douglas Caddy]

Since her documents went missing after she and a retired NYPD detective delivered them to the investigative committee in Washington, my suggestion is that you direct your inquiry to whoever took the documents. I tend to believe there was a reason the documents disappeared.

[Paul Brancato]

I agree. Rejection of her testimony means little. Disappearing documents are suspicious. Whatever they contained, they are missing.

[David Andrews]

On 10/9/2014 at 10:15 PM, David Andrews said:

Tommy - I have the name confused. I see who you have identified at the Elm Street curb in Cancellare (top), and in your post on a film taken from the south, as Diaz Lanz.

I was referring to the man in Cancellare standing with hands at sides near Charles Brehm and son, who is also on Main Street in the alleged Altgens photo (bottom) with "Robertson," "O'Hare" and "Hemming." His dark hair is receding, and he's just behind "Conein."

He has been pegged as a Cuban by some observers in the past. Which Cuban? I can't find the reference, even in FFIDP. I see, however, that this is not Pedro Diaz Lanz. Does anyone remember the identification once attributed to this guy?

Speaking of the "Hunt" figure in Dealey, is it possible that the man in the hat hidden behind the cop's helmet in the alleged Altgens below is that "Hunt" figure in Cancellare ? The Main-Houston pack seems to have migrated together, with "Hemming" now by the NE pergola.

May I bump?  Can anyone tell me if there is a film or another photo of the north side of Main Street near the Houston corner that shows the figures sometimes ID'd as Gerry Hemming (tall, crew cut, rear) and Lucien Conein (widow's peak) in this spot?

The Robert Hughes film, for instance, shows the people to the left of "Hemming," but others who may be the two mentioned are obscured by camera blur or by the back of a traffic cop in Hughes' POV. 

If you look past the cop in the Hughes film when he bends right to get a look at the limo passing, there may not be anyone at all standing between the two window ledges, as "Hemming" is in the Altgens photo below.

Thanks.

Edited May 29, 2019 by David Andrews

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2014 at 9:27 AM, Larry Hancock said:

David, lets get a little more specific on Hunt's roles. He was a political action officer in both Guatemala and on the JMARC project. What that means is that he pressed the flesh with rebel or exile surrogates and served as a bag man for money. Beyond that he did political assessments of his contacts and wrestled with moving preferred surrogate leaders into political power positions. You would have found him working out of headquarters but in no way in a operational command post role. His trade craft was pitiful and he was written up for security violations. He also partied way too much for the security folks and was not trusted by the Ops guys - Morales noted on a memo that he would not trust him to keep any particular secret.

He simply was not a paramilitary ops guy in any sense, the made contacts, he promised things to people and he passed money. He appears to have been good at that but only with his type of political surrogates, he created as many problems as he solved in that sense. If anything it seems it was his pro Agency spy stories that impressed his superiors. It would be with that background that someone would need to fit him into some role that would put him in a photograph in the Plaza.

Bump.  RE: was Hunt in DP?

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2014 at 9:41 PM, David Andrews said:

Larry - all true, and welcome info. But Hunt was broadcasting radio propaganda during the Guatemala "triumph" and the BOP debacle, so that puts him in the operational arena, and at a distance, but not in a command role. I believe the Guatemala psyop was regarded as his baby, though, and was important to his career.

I take all your points, and never meant to put Hunt "in command" at Dealey or in another military-style operation. I was trying to point out that I find him unlikely in an on-the-ground role at Dealey (such as shooter's spotter), and that the Post Office would be a possible location for Hunt - at a distance which would have kept him from appearing in the Cancellare photo.

I understand that we shouldn't generalize Hunt's various roles at Guatemala, at BOP, and in his Nixon burglary work, and that he was operating in each case under limits imposed on him - so all of his "distance" work was not always preferential.

You may feel that Hunt had no reason to be in Dealey at all. But remember that Hunt, when put on the spot, was incapable of contesting in court that he had been in Dallas, and that even his family wouldn't alibi him. What if his last crack about being "on the sidelines" for the Kennedy killing was meant literally, a kind of semantic dodge for having been there as someone's observer, but not himself involved?

Do you feel that Hunt was in any way involved in the assassination? Do you give any credence to Marita Lorenz describing Hunt as a "bag man" for Sturgis and Ruby?

Next.

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2014 at 4:50 PM, Larry Hancock said:

Not to be a pain in the rear but perhaps someone might speculate on what sort of documents Lorenz could conceivably have. She had done several news interviews and she did give testimony to the HSCA which rejected her story citing no corroboration. At the risk of being seen as cynical, her remarks indicate documentation on:

" OP40, the Cuban invasion, Castro, planning for the Kennedy assassination, and other covert operations that she had knowledge of" . These documents were going to be delivered to the House Assassination Hearings.”

Documents on OP40 and the Cuban invasion would pretty much have to be CIA documents. Given her history - mistress to Castro, work as a hostess in Miami for social events primarily involving Latin American diplomats, tourists, etc - having a child to a Latin American dictator in exile, launching a 1963 paternity suit against said individual and being pursued by Miami photo journalists for stories relating to the paternity suit, into the fall of 1963 (I have cover photos of her from Miami papers) what sort government / specifically CIA documents could she possibly have held? Does that make any sense at all? As to documents related to planning the JFK assassination....was anybody really writing down notes on that and giving copies to a lady who in a highly public legal action and a very photogenic object of the local media? And other covert operations? To be objective, I suspect that Lorenz could well have thought that a number of things that Sturgis talked to her about might have been government covert operations - that was his standard line. Perhaps she had notes from him, motel or travel receipts etc? But apparently she did not take anyting along when giving her HSCA testimony?

I just can't fathom what sort of real documents she might have....any suggestions?

.

[Larry Hancock]

I suppose I should comment in sequence..

On Hunt, we do know that when Artime returned from Cuba he officially contacted Morales at JMWAVE and RFK.  Later he contacted his old friend Howard Hunt and a host of other people (Artime was like that).  In fact Artime was so "social" that he tried to get Hunt into the AMWORLD project and Henry Hecksher had to write a protest memo with Hunt being instructed to butt out.  Apparently Artime was so insistent that ultimately Hunt was brought into some DC level meetings, which were going on the week of the assassination.  Unfortunately we cannot place Hunt in the meetings with documents, we can hardly place anybody there other than RFK and certain Cuban exiles including Artime and some military personnel who he had brought in from Fort Benning.   We know that Hunt was given cover and dispatched to Spain to work the project in some form from the political side in 1964.  So could Hunt have been in DC and in meetings and have refused to give that as a specific alibi at his trial...maybe.

On the other hand he was assigned to Domestic Ops under Tracy Barnes -  it was Domestic Ops that had contacted Oswald on his return to Dallas, it certainly makes sense that they would have monitored he and Marina but we have no records to show they did.  Would it be outrageous to think that after his return to Dallas from MC that Hunt had been assigned to go down to Dallas and see what Oswald might be up to with Cubans, of any flavor...maybe not. Would anybody admit that after the fact...hardly.  Would somebody write a memo they should worry about that during the HSCA...maybe.

As to Lorenz and documents...that makes no sense at all. What makes sense is that she may indeed have been interviewed, just as Sturgis and Hemming and others were after coming out of Cuba.  Given her closeness to Castro and given that one of the plans (Pathfinder) involved a sniper attack eliminating Fidel at Veradero Beach I could see her being questioned a bunch about his movements and behaviors.  But beyond that she would be the biggest security risk in the world...talk to her sure, give her anything, not likely. Sturgis talk to her, sure, he talked to everybody and he was working for the CIA as an informant while doing so.

But let's be real, at the time of the purported caravan to Dallas, she was making front page news in Miami with her paternity suit and photographers were following her around getting great pictures...she was quite photogenic.  Not exactly the type of person to bring in as "cover" for a motorcade. That's about as likely as sending her into the swamps for paramilitary training.

In short,  no on Hunt and the conspiracy...and if Morales had pitched it to him and Hunt passed its hard for me to see Morales leaving him on the sidelines...in a pool of water in the Everglades, maybe.  And on Lorenz, nope. But I would hold open the possibility that Hunt might have been in Dallas and the Agency would never want to have to explain it if it indeed did relate to monitoring Oswald (which might make some sense given that Hunt was familiar with a good number of the exiles, both the political folks and as with Martinez, even some of the PM operators).