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Alberto Miatello

Who was the nurse collecting the TRUE bullet falling from Connally's thigh?

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I totally agree with Robert Harris. He proved that Exhibit #399 (the infamous magic bullet) CANNOT be the TRUE bullet that stroke Gov. John Connally. It was Connally himself who totally debunked this hypothesis, when he wrote in his book  “In History Shadow” (1994)– black on white – “the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed through my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.”

So, Connally saw the TRUE bullet falling from his thigh at around 12:38-12:40 of Nov. 22, 1963, moments before the surgical intervention by Dr. Gregory on 2nd floor of Parkland Hospital. And he recalls that a nurse IMMEDIATELY collected it, and then she put the bullet in a brown envelope  and, after  discussing briefly with Henry Wade (who suggested her to hand it to a policeman) , she delivered the envelope to patrolman Bobby Nolan, who brought the parcel to Dallas Police Dept.  and in his turn delivered the parcel to Capt. Fritz, and then the envelope DISAPPEARED (ah, those  disrespectful  persons who are rumoring that Capt. Fritz was the nephew of Harry Houdini, and the father of David Copperfield, ah ah!).

In recent years some hardcore supporters of the Warren Commission argued that Capt. Fritz initialed the Exhibit #842, containing bullets fragments from Connally’s wrist, after the surgical operation.

But this remark is totally irrelevant as the Exhibit #842 is not in dispute! The point is not whether Capt. Fritz initialed exhibit #842 or not!

The point is that THERE WAS ANOTHER ENVELOPE, different from the one containing the 4 tiny fragments from Connally’s wrist, and that envelope contained the TRUE BULLET from Connally’s thigh, and yet that envelope DISAPPEARED, nobody found it anymore.

Please, note that the nurse collecting the bullet from Connally’s thigh IMMEDIATELY – as in standard procedures of Parkland Hospital – made an envelope, and that envelope COULD NOT be the same containing fragments from Connally’s wrist, because according to Parkland’s standard procedures, the fragments had to be put in DIFFERENT ENVELOPES, each for any body’s area from which they were removed!

So, clearly a piece of metal from thigh could not be put in the same envelope containing  fragments from wrist!

Moreover, the bullet falling from Connally’s thigh was seen at around 12:38-12:40 p.m. at 2nd floor of Parkland, and it was immediately put in an envelope, so it cannot be the one discovered more than 1 hour later (1:45 p.m.) by Darrell Tomlinson falling from the stretcher on the ground floor!

 

Now, my only question is: who was (or could be)  the nurse collecting the TRUE bullet falling from Connally’s thigh at 12:38-12:40?

It was not Audrey Bell – who just handed the envelope #842 and delivered to a CIVILIAN (an FBI or Secret Service agent wearing no uniform, whereas Nolan was a Patrolman wearing a police uniform).

I guessed she could be Miss Rutherford, or Mrs. Schrader, the nurses who assisted Dr. Gregory in the surgical intervention to Connally.

I suggested this possibility in my last study (see section 2: Second compelling  reason: the “official” exhibit CE-399 (the pristine and alleged “magic bullet” that should have struck Kennedy and  Connally) was not the bullet that Connally saw moments before his surgical treatment. Exhibit CE-399 is only a fake.)

https://www.academia.edu/32346233/Six_Compelling_and_Irrefutable_Reasons_Proving_that_President_Kennedy_was_Killed_by_a_Well-Organized_Plot

 Then it occurred to me that another nurse:  Diana Hamilton Bowron was there at that time, and she briefly entered the emergency room where President Kennedy was treated. 

But my direct question to Robert Harris is: did you interview the nurses Rutherford, or Schrader, or Bowron, or maybe someone else (how many nurses could be there on 2nd floor of Parkland at that moment?) trying to identify that “nurse”?

Thanks

Alberto

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Alberto - good post, and compelling PDF you linked to. I hope someone here can shed light on who picked up the bullet that Connolly says came from his thigh. The only thing I can add is that it's time we stop dwelling on nuts and bolts issues and start applying ourselves to who organized and executed this most heinous act. There is no disputing the fact of conspiracy. Have you applied your logic to the question of 'who'?

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Posted (edited)

The yellow highlighted paragraph of your thread listing the time of discovery for whatever fell out of Connally and onto the floor in the exam room ( with a noise like a ring hitting - even a small ring but still perceptible ) as Connally was being transferred from his stretcher to the examination table and the "one hour later time" when a hospital worker ( Darrell Tomlinson ) found the so-called single shot "Magic Bullet" by himself on the floor in a hall outside of the elevator could be the true " Magic Bullet " story proving conspiracy.

And does anyone really think that any bullet fragments ( as small as the ones shown in the public record ) that would have fallen from Connally and hit the floor in the exam room could make a perceptible ring hitting the floor noise?

And disappearing evidence is such a repetitive theme in the subsequent investigations that still today this is just a given in reinforcing the accepted view of huge corruption taking place among all the agencies involved.

Heck, immediately high jacking JFK's limo and altering it so quickly was the biggest evidence heist of all.

And whenever I see and read the name "Henry Wade" mentioned in any area of the JFK investigation I think of ...well... ???

I agree with Paul's comments about the "who" being of much more importance than the details... but sometimes reviewing and discussing older details and testimony is not a bad thing when it helps to expose and clarify more thoroughly the preposterousness of the LN argument and agenda.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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Posted (edited)

ROBERT HARRIS SAID:

And you [David Von Pein] continue to evade the statements by Connally, Wade, Nolan, Stinson and Bell, which prove that the real Connally bullet was recovered on the second floor and given to Nolan.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Then where is that bullet that was picked up by the unknown nurse, Bob?

No such bullet exists, and it never did exist. And one of the biggest reasons to know it never existed is the following testimony by one of Connally's doctors:

DR. CHARLES GREGORY -- "We were disconcerted by not finding a missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds, and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them, and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, rather."

Given the fact that the above testimony from one of John Connally's own doctors exists in the Warren Commission record, it's inconceivable to think that a bullet could have fallen from Connally's body and BEEN RECOVERED by a nurse, with this nurse then saying NOTHING to Dr. Gregory or anyone else about it.

Another very interesting part of John Connally's book is the following excerpt taken from the very same page which also contains the part about a nurse picking up a bullet and putting it in her pocket:

"A nurse spotted Nellie and handed her one of my gold cuff links. We never found the other one."

John-Connally-Book-Excerpt.jpg

Do you think that maybe a cuff link falling to the floor might make about the same kind of "clinking" sound as a spent bullet would make?

And Connally says right there in his book that a "nurse" gave Nellie a cuff link. Couldn't that be the nurse who supposedly picked up a "bullet"? Maybe the "bullet" was really a "cuff link".

In the final analysis, nobody can know for certain what the metal object was that John Connally heard falling to the floor on November 22. But the best evidence is: It certainly was NOT a bullet.

 

ROBERT HARRIS SAID:

David, Nellie was given that cufflink on the FIRST FLOOR. Do your homework. The nurse recovered the bullet on the SECOND FLOOR, as he was being transferred from his gurney.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I think you MIGHT have been able to get the drift of my "cuff link" comment that I made earlier, Bob (even though you're pretending not to get that drift now).

Main point being:

A cuff link hitting the floor COULD have possibly sounded very similar to a BULLET hitting the same floor. Right, Bob?

And since we know that Nellie Connally WAS, in fact, given one of her husband's gold cuff links in the hospital, by a nurse, I'm suggesting that the "metal object" that Governor Connally heard falling to the floor could possibly have been one of his two gold cuff links -- one of which he never saw again. Maybe it was the missing cuff link that the nurse put in her pocket, and it just never found its way back into the possession of the Connallys. Who can know for sure? Nobody can.

And John Connally definitely did NOT see a "bullet" in the operating room. There is no corroboration for that at all. Not even from John Connally himself, including Page 18 of his book. He never said he actually SAW a bullet. And some people have claimed that Connally's co-writer on that book (Mickey Herskowitz) is responsible for some of the narrative credited to Connally in the book. (I have no opinion on that theory one way or the other, however.)

We do have John Connally's Warren Commission testimony to help clear up this "bullet" matter, though. Connally told the WC this in 1964:

ARLEN SPECTER -- "Do you know whether there was any bullet, or bullet fragments, that remained in your body or in your clothing as you were placed on the emergency stretcher at Parkland Hospital?"

JOHN B. CONNALLY -- "No."


Now, Bob, if your theory is correct, and if Governor Connally had REALLY seen a bullet that had fallen from his body onto the floor at Parkland Hospital on 11/22/63, don't you think that Arlen Specter's above question would have elicited a slightly different response from Connally?

Now, yes, it's true that Specter's question related to the time when Connally was first being placed ONTO THE STRETCHER at Parkland. But I think it's a pretty big stretch to think that these words from Specter wouldn't have prompted Connally to say something to Specter about a bullet that had fallen from his body and onto the Operating Room floor (if such a thing had actually occurred):

"Do you know whether there was any bullet, or bullet fragments, that remained in your body or in your clothing...?"

Wouldn't you agree, Robert?

[...]

ROBERT HARRIS SAID:

David, you have a tendency to attack irrefutable evidence.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh, you mean like the "Connally heard a bullet fall to the floor, even though he never ever claimed to actually SEE that bullet that a nurse supposedly put in her pocket" stuff, Bob?

Get real.


ROBERT HARRIS SAID:

If you hope to refute this issue, you need to address the STRONGEST evidence and testimony - not the single witness who was obviously wishy washy and easily talked into changing his story.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh, so you now apparently want to claim that Raymond Marcus, who is a conspiracy theorist who thinks that CE399 is a "Bastard Bullet" (i.e., it's a fake and a fraud), had a desire to talk Darrell Tomlinson into "changing his story" about the stretchers. Is that correct, Bob?

And Marcus [in his 1966 interview with Tomlinson, on Page 6] also somehow was able to strong-arm Tomlinson into saying that CE399 "appeared to be the same" bullet that he found on a Parkland stretcher two-and-a-half years earlier. Is that it, Bob?

Because if you're not claiming that Marcus (a devoted conspiracy theorist who thinks CE399 is a phony bullet) was putting words into Tomlinson's mouth during their telephone conversation of 7/25/66, then why would you leap to the conclusion that OTHER people could have persuaded Tomlinson to "change his story" so easily?

Face it, Robert, you're stuck with Ray Marcus' transcript. And you are certainly not in a million years going to suggest that Marcus was trying to get Darrell Tomlinson to say that CE399 looked the same as the stretcher bullet.


BILL KELLY SAID:

You also claim to enjoy humoring yourself by proving [Robert] Harris and [James] DiEugenio wrong, and as Harris has said, and I'm sure Jimmy D will acknowledge, they are open to persuasion and will correct the record where necessary, but that still doesn't change the fact that the provenance of CE399 is tarnished, there is evidence that it isn't what caused all of the non-fatal damage in the limo, and that its origin has never been established.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

CE399 is a bullet from Oswald's gun, Bill.

That fact alone is powerful evidence that it IS a legitimate bullet in this case. And that's because, as I've mentioned before, it dovetails and fits perfectly with all of the other ballistics evidence connected with JFK's murder. Which is ballistics evidence recovered from THREE different locations by multiple law enforcement agencies.

That's some fantastic across-the-board coordination for the bullet fakery in this case, wouldn't you agree Bill? The Secret Service and the FBI and the Dallas Police Department all got together and decided to make it look UNIFIED so that everything would come back to this conclusion in the end:

Lee Oswald's Carcano was the murder weapon.

Amazing that anyone could even begin to believe that any of the bullet/rifle evidence in this case is faked or planted when considering the fact that this stuff was recovered by different law agencies and was found in three separate places--Parkland Hospital, the Book Depository, and in the President's limousine itself.

[...]

The Warren Commission and the HSCA had no problem declaring that Oswald killed Kennedy.

And the WC and HSCA had no problem declaring that CE399 was the bullet that struck both JFK and Connally.

But apparently you think the HSCA was too stupid (or was too corrupt) to seek out the truth about the stretcher bullet. So they merely rubber-stamped the Warren Commission's conclusion of CE399 being the SBT bullet.

And to think we need to know WHERE Oswald purchased the bullets he used to kill President Kennedy is just another one of the many chaff-like things that CTers love to prop up to cloud the true facts of Oswald's guilt.

David Von Pein
December 6-7, 2011

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1223.html

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1104.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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You bring up some valid cross-examining type questions DVP. 

John Connally's answers in this area could perhaps suggest some "possible" unsureness or mis-recollection about what he specifically saw and heard ( and when and where ) regards the cuff links or any other objects that he claims had fallen from his stretcher and made a slight clink sound upon hitting the floor. And that a nurse picked up and pocketed.

I do know that in the times when I was rushed to hospitals in emergency crisis situations, my memories of details in the first hour or hours regards what went on around me, especially if pain or sedative medication had been administered, were often foggy.

But still, some of what you are suggesting is just speculation of other possible scenarios on your part also.

"A cuff link hitting the floor COULD have possibly sounded very similar to a BULLET hitting the same floor. Right, Bob?"

And if Connally's examination room nurse had picked up the second gold cuff link off the floor when Connally claims she picked up a bullet, and the Connally's or the hospital or the police never claimed to have seen this second missing cuff link again, are you suggesting this nurse kept ( stole ) the gold cuff link and never gave it to anybody?  Is that a possible scenario in your mind?

 

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Paul B

I agree 100%. It's time to start concentrating on who ordered the hit. Many great researchers have already found enough evidence on the conspiracy. It's obvious, it was a conspiracy.

I think Jim D's efforts on why is important also and as new evidence turns up I'm sure Jim will keep everyone posted.

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Paul, George,

Good points. Conspiracy is most certainly obvious. I enjoy studying the nuts and bolts and find them very interesting, but it's easy to get bogged down in the weeds and lose site of the most basic questions.

I think the dialogue between Garrison and Mr. X in Oliver Stone's JFk is very prescient: 

"That's the real question isn't it: why? The how and the who is just scenery for the public. Oswald, Ruby, Cuba, The Mafia, keeps 'em guessing like some kind of parlor game, prevents 'em from asking the most important question: why? Why was Kennedy Killed? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who?"

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Roger D

Why?

Because he and Castro had agreed to seek peace. There are several reasons why Kennedy was killed, mainly his foreign policy, but peace with Castro was the last straw.

The CIA had given Lisa Howard, who was Kennedy's emissary to Castro, some questions to ask Castro that they hoped would sabotage the talks but Castro agreed to meet Kennedy to talk peace.

I believe the wheels were set in motion to kill Kennedy after Howard was debriefed by the CIA upon her return from Cuba in May 1963.

Who benefited?

Arms dealers, anyone or business who supplied material for war, LBJ stayed out of jail, CIA wasn't splintered, Hoover keeps his job, there are other beneficiaries too many to name.

Who has the power to cover it up?

CIA and FBI 

  

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Thanks a lot Paul,  George, and Roger...

With reference to the other painful comment, about the "cuff link", ah ah, that's really amusing, I'm still laughing.

Maybe some persons are desperately trying to persuade us  that John Connally, Henry Wade and Bobby Nolan were all idiots, totally uncapable to distinguish between a BULLET (or a large fragment of it) and a CUFF LINK!

Maybe they are desperately trying to persuade us that if you show a cuff link to a world war veteran as John Connally, or to an expert district attorney as Henry Wade they all are saying "oh, it's a bullet!!"  Or maybe they could say: "oh, it's a piece of gold!" ..."oh it's a rare XVIII century coin"..."oh it's a piece of a Fabergè Egg! Please, send it to the Guggenheim collection!"

And maybe they are trying to persuade us that Parkland nurses were all morons, wasting their time making envelopes containing "cuff links", and delivering to police officers, maybe because they were getting bored,  while waiting between a blooded dying person and another, in an Emergency room.

And maybe they are trying to persuade us that a mobster as  Jack Ruby, one hour later, was on the ground floor of  Parkland hospital sent there by Mother Teresa, delivering love, peace, and candy gifts to poor children.

kindly Von Pein find someone else believing your fairy tales...

Thanks

collections_cufflinks.jpg

Photo portraying a man wearing a dangerous BULLET on his wrist...

 

 

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Conspiracy is proven to us that study the case and look at the facts. I think the general public believes something is not right here, but I don't think they are aware of all of the evidence or proof supporting a conspiracy. I believe the best proof of conspiracy lies in this topic itself. CE 399 is a near pristine bullet that is claimed to have done all of the damage to Connally. Yet we have X-Rays showing metal fragments in his wrist that would amount to more metal than is missing from CE 399. To me, that is the best and most blatant proof that we have of a conspiracy.

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The general public is unconvinced of conspiracy. Its easy to claim otherwise by referring to polling, but if you asked a member of the public 'what convinces you of conspiracy' I have no confidence the answer would make any sense. This lead, about a nurse who may have spoken to others about her story is very interesting. If her story is corroborated its fantastic evidence of conspiracy.

The official (but not widely disseminated view) a'la 'JFK Declassified' ,is that there was a benign cover-up to avoid war. I believe that's how far JFK research has pushed the accepted facts, and no further. Because I have read more widely on the subject than most of the general public I can point to pieces of evidence which I simply don't believe fit into the lone gunman theory. I think almost every piece of the evidence I cherish is challenged not by a lone-nut believer, but by someone with a conspiracy theory or someone highly successful at disinformation. Please keep looking at the 'how', not just the 'who'.

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Roger D

More about who would benefit from the ouster of Kennedy and Castro. 

pg 297 "The Brothers" Kinzer

"During the 21 December 1960 meeting of the Special Group, Allen Dulles briefed the attendees on a meeting that he had participated in the previous day in New York with a group of American businessmen", according to a CIA account that remained secret for nearly half a century. "In attendance at this meeting were the vice president of Latin America of Standard Oil of New Jersey, the chairman of the Cuban-American Sugar Company, the president of the American Sugar Domino Refining Company, the president of the American and Foreign Power Company, the chairman of the Freeport Sulphur Company and representatives from Texaco, International Telephone and Telegraph, and other American companies with business interests in Cuba. The tenor of the conversation was that it was time for the US to get off dead center and take some direct action against Castro".

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Eddy B

You hit the nail on the head. The CTs are the most vociferous when it comes to criticism concerning other CT theories, not the LNs. They own their theories and it's just human nature to protect what's yours.

However there are some posters here that help those understand some intricacies about the assassination. Jim D does a good job on the "why". David Jacobs and Davidson do a good jobs on the "how". Once upon a time Sean Murphy used to post on CT forums. It seems like he has dissappeared. Great analyzer, researcher and detective. I miss his knowledge on the subject. 

As to the "who", look no further than David Talbot's book "Devil's Chessboard".

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Posted (edited)

Does anyone really think this comment below made by Henry Wade in 1993, thirty years after the assassination, absolutely PROVES that there was an "extra" bullet plucked from the body of Governor Connally in the operating room? I sure don't, because the evidence in this case clearly indicates that only ONE WHOLE BULLET (CE399) was recovered in connection with the wounding of either JFK or Governor Connally....

"I also went out to see Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on...I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet" -- Henry Wade; November 21, 1993 (Dallas Morning News)

What Henry Wade actually saw was very likely an envelope containing the 4 bullet fragments removed from John Connally's wrist.

To think that a nurse gave the police a SECOND whole bullet that came out of Connally's body--with the cops then deep-sixing (or losing) this bullet and never saying a single word about it ever again--is simply not a reasonable thing to believe.

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)

David VP

A doctor announced to the world (press conference) that the bullet that injured Connally was still in his calf. As`of the press conference it hadn't been removed. At this point Connally had already been x-rayed.

Edited by George Sawtelle

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