Ruth - a typewriter - 15 days

[Michael Clark]

16 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

Not a solid link to any of these guys.

Watergate... "The whole Bay of Pigs thing" .

Edited August 2, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Chris Newton]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Except there is no crease....   Could Ruth, the FBI and the WC be trying to pull a fast one on us here Paul?

Ruth Paine's testimony is that she could see the line "the FBI is no longer interested in me" above the fold, the draft having been folded in "half". This initially caught her eye concerning the document which she states she noticed on her little desk secretary in the living room. She further stated that she "knew" this to be a lie and the statement angered her in-so-much-as Oswald had used her typewriter to create his letter to the embassy.

 

This is where her "story" begins to fall apart.

1. She testified she noticed the letter sometime Saturday after returning with the Oswalds from their shopping trip. She also testified she did not read it until early Sunday morning.

2. The draft had to have sat there, in the open, unnoticed by Oswald and Marina as they watched TV and moved about the house, for 18+ hours despite Marina stating to the FBI when shown the document that she never saw it before. She also immediately recognized Lee's handwriting and expressed shock that it was in Ruth's possession.

3. Ruth claims she never saw the document that Oswald typed and that Oswald covered the draft so she could not see it when he was in the kitchen typing. How then did she "know" that this document was in fact the same document Oswald typed?

4. How, and why,  did Ruth hide this draft document from the Detectives that were searching her house and property? Why did she not mention it in her written statement to the DPD or to Marina despite their "friendship" and the fact that she allegedly had it hidden and in her possession for at least 10 days prior to the assassination?

[Paul Trejo]

On 8/1/2017 at 6:41 PM, Mark Knight said:

We know now that Oswald was taken off the FBI watch list just prior to the assassination; but how did OSWALD know it, so that he included it in his letter to the Soviet embassy? Assuming that Oswald wrote the letter, of course.

The FBI doesn't exactly send you a notice when you're removed from their watch list. So either Oswald was connected in some way to the FBI, or he had an informant in the FBI who told him. Or he didn't write the letter, but someone with that knowledge wrote the letter. I won't point the finger at the Paynes here...because...how would THEY have known?

THIS should be the answer to seek. Answer this question, and you may have the JFK assassination mystery solved.

Mark,

Assuming that Lee Harvey Oswald wrote the "Soviet Embassy Letter" of 11/9/1963, the original motivation for his writing the letter is stated inside the letter itself, as I read it.  Namely -- Oswald directly referred to the FBI visits to Ruth Paine's home on 11/1 and 11/5/1963.

That was the key purpose of this letter -- to take a stab at the FBI.

Now -- why did the FBI visit Ruth Paine in early November 1963?  The superficial reason was to check upon Marina Oswald, who was a foreign national.  But the real reason -- as Ruth Paine testified to the WC -- was that Dallas FBI agent James Hosty asked direct questions about Lee Harvey Oswald -- his address, his whereabouts, his employment, his behavior.

Marina Oswald quickly told Lee Harvey Oswald about all the details of these visits, and they made Oswald very angry.

There is the key motive for the "Soviet Embassy Letter."   The content was a bogus letter to the USSR -- the kind that would make the FBI drool.  IMHO, this was Lee Harvey Oswald playing cat and mouse with the FBI.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo
11/5

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Except there is no crease....   Could Ruth, the FBI and the WC be trying to pull a fast one on us here Paul?

David,

I'm not worried about these feminine sorts of details.   The truth (in my reading) is that Ruth Paine really couldn't hold herself back from reading the "Soviet Embassy Letter," because it was sitting there on her desk for more than a full day.

Come on -- she picked it up an looked at it, and her middle-class morality told her she was doing something wrong -- but she couldn't help herself.   

Heck -- it was her house, her desk, her typewriter and her paper, sitting there for more than a full day -- most people would feel they had a RIGHT to look at it.

But not Ruth Paine -- she felt guilty about it (as we glean from her WC testimony).   Not only that, but when she showed it to Michael Paine -- he REFUSED to look at it!   Michael's morality -- his sense of privacy and private property -- was even more middle-class than Ruth's!  

Michael testified that when Ruth insisted that he read it, he read the first words, and it looked like "Dear Lisa" to him (instead of Dear Sirs).  So Michael thought that this was a very personal letter that Lee Harvey Oswald was writing to some woman -- and it was nobody's business.  

Ruth then described the contents to him --- it said bad things about the FBI -- it said things about Mexico City.   Yet even Ruth thought (as she testified) that Oswald was just making up stories.  That's what Michael thought, too (as he testified), i.e. that Oswald was bragging some line of baloney to some other woman -- and it just wasn't any of Ruth's business!

So, Michael didn't take it seriously.  Ruth, however, took it very seriously, and made her own copy of it to give to FBI agent James Hosty, the next time he came over.

So -- what is all the fuss about a crease or whatever was showing, that tempted Ruth to read the letter?  It's a tempest in a tea-cup, as the bard said.   Ruth was as curious as Eve in the Garden -- who took the apple and ate.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 2, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

That's a good one Paul, even for you.

I like the way you ignored everything that Chris brought up, which goes to the heart of the matter.

And if anyone can make sense about your motivation for Oswald writing the letter, I would like to hear it. Not from you but from them.

[Chris Newton]

5. According to Ruth the first get together was an "informal opening for confidence" which took place between Ruth and FBI Agent Hosty on Nov. 1st. Ruth invited Hosty, who arrived alone (against FBI regulations), inside and he sat on her famous couch. They "conversed about the weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes in Germany at the time."  I highly recommend picking up Ruth's actual testimony right here...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=24&search=weather

...as she goes off the rails. Classic disassociation.

Where is the part where she tells Hosty that ....even though she doesn't know where Oswald is living, that she has all his stuff not ten feet away in the garage?

She says she told Hosty about the job at the TSBD and that he was staying at an unknown rooming house.

6. The "forgot to tell the FBI" Oswald rooming house phone number is a problem too.

Note: If the Paine line had a tap, as suggested elsewhere in this forum,  then I assume the infamous call by Ruth "because Marina missed him so" would have revealed the Oswald rooming house number and conversation as well?

[David Josephs]

Paul, we all understand you don't sweat the details...  you don't understand the details...

When someone says there's a crease... and the image doesn't show one 1) Ruth is lying, or 2) this isn't the letter she saw

But I'm more interested in why you ignore the question against your stated FACT

Oswald is not in Irving on Tuesdays...  But is on Saturdays.  The 2nd is a Saturday while the 12th is a Tuesday...

Quote

Then, LHO personally mailed it on 11/12/1963.

When do you suppose he was able to get to IRVING on a Tuesday?  Wesley takes him Monday morn and Friday after work...

Can you explain how/when Oswald mailed this letter, from Irving, on a Tuesday? (edit - when instead, he was in Irving on Sat the 2nd.... Oooops!)

[Mark Knight]

18 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mark,

Assuming that Lee Harvey Oswald wrote the "Soviet Embassy Letter" of 11/9/1963, the original motivation for his writing the letter is stated inside the letter itself, as I read it.  Namely -- Oswald directly referred to the FBI visit to Ruth Paine's home on 11/1/1963.

That was the key purpose of this letter -- to take a stab at the FBI.

Now -- why did the FBI visit Ruth Paine in early November 1963?  The superficial reason was to check upon Marina Oswald, who was a foreign national.  But the real reason -- as Ruth Paine testified to the WC -- was that Dallas FBI agent James Hosty asked direct questions about Lee Harvey Oswald -- his address, his whereabouts, his employment, his behavior.

Marina Oswald quickly told Lee Harvey Oswald about all the details of these visits, and they made Oswald very angry.

There is the key motive for the "Soviet Embassy Letter."   The content was a bogus letter to the USSR -- the kind that would make the FBI drool.  IMHO, this was Lee Harvey Oswald playing cat and mouse with the FBI.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

How was this letter going to make the FBI "drool"??

And of course, you didn't answer the biggest question raised by this letter:  Oswald WAS taken off the FBI's watch list, on October 8, 1963.  How did Oswald KNOW this?  Because that's EXACTLY what the letter is telling the Soviet embassy...that Oswald was taken off the FBI's watch list [WHICH HE WAS], and that OSWALD KNEW IT.

I ask AGAIN... Assuming Oswald wrote the letter, HOW did he come to know he was taken off the FBI's watch list?  Hosty's NOT going to tell him...so WHO DID?

I again raise the question...if a mole had access to the FBI watch list, they could confirm that the information in Oswald's letter to the Soviet embassy was TRUE.

So how did Oswald KNOW this?  That may be the answer that solves the assassination.

[Paul Trejo]

17 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

How was this letter going to make the FBI "drool"??

And of course, you didn't answer the biggest question raised by this letter:  Oswald WAS taken off the FBI's watch list, on October 8, 1963.  How did Oswald KNOW this?  Because that's EXACTLY what the letter is telling the Soviet embassy...that Oswald was taken off the FBI's watch list [WHICH HE WAS], and that OSWALD KNEW IT.

I ask AGAIN... Assuming Oswald wrote the letter, HOW did he come to know he was taken off the FBI's watch list?  Hosty's NOT going to tell him...so WHO DID?

I again raise the question...if a mole had access to the FBI watch list, they could confirm that the information in Oswald's letter to the Soviet embassy was TRUE.

So how did Oswald KNOW this?  That may be the answer that solves the assassination.

Mark,

In my reading, Oswald was taken off the FBI watch list in late 1962 by FBI agent John Quigley, and then FBI agent James Hosty placed Oswald back on the FBI watch list after the New Orleans FPCC arrest on August 9, 1963 (cf. James Hosty, Assignment Oswald, 1996)

James Hosty then removed Oswald from the FBI watch list two months later; on October 8, 1963.  This was because (in my opinion) James Hosty, General Walker and the Dallas Radical Right wanted a lower profile on their Patsy.

In my reading, Oswald knew he was taken off the FBI watch list in late 1962, because it was official, and the FBI told him so.  Then, on August 9, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald himself -- nobody else -- called the FBI to come and investigate him.  The New Orleans FBI made a record of it, but did not affect Oswald's watch status.  James Hosty in Dallas was the one who wanted to increase the watch status and "reopen the case."

If I'm right here, then Oswald in his "Soviet Embassy Letter" was only referring to the fact that the FBI didn't give two-cents about Lee Harvey Oswald in early November 1963 (as J. Edgar Hoover would himself tell the Warren Commission).   Oswald probably had no idea that James Hosty had re-opened his case in August, 1963, and closed it in October, 1963

However, Mark, your interpretation is that Oswald somehow became aware of this October, 1963 change in FBI watch status -- and you conclude that this was precisely the THEME of the "Soviet Embassy Letter" of 11/9/1963 by Oswald.  Yet before you demand to know HOW all this happened, please walk through the scenario more slowly, and explain WHY you interpret Oswald's letter in this way.  

What sentence(s) in Oswald's letter lead you to believe: (1) that Oswald knew he was taken off the FBI watch list in October 1963; and (2) that Oswald was telling the Soviet Embassy precisely this?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Paul Trejo
clarity

[David Josephs]

Stop acting the fool Paul...

How did Oswald mail that envelope from Irving TX on TUESDAY the 12th by 5 pm?

This shows Oswald at work on the 12th with Veterans Day the 11th.

How did our little Oswald do that all by himself Paul?   Your silence is always appreciated yet this is a direct question.

If you can't explain it, no worries.   The postmark is for the 2nd of Nov when Oswald was home...  the only way you're right on this one thing is to be wrong about the other...

IOW, Ruth Paine was lying to us again about this letter and her knowledge of it.

Edited August 2, 2017 by David Josephs

[Paul Trejo]

On 8/2/2017 at 5:26 PM, David Josephs said:

Stop acting the fool Paul...

How did Oswald mail that envelope from Irving TX on TUESDAY the 12th by 5 pm?

This shows Oswald at work on the 12th with Veterans Day the 11th.

How did our little Oswald do that all by himself Paul?   Your silence is always appreciated yet this is a direct question.

If you can't explain it, no worries.   The postmark is for the 2nd of Nov when Oswald was home...  the only way you're right on this one thing is to be wrong about the other...

IOW, Ruth Paine was lying to us again about this letter and her knowledge of it.

David,

Your insulting manner is unlovely.  I do wish you'd strike a more civil tone here.

In any case, your arithmetic is faulty.

Lee Harvey Oswald spent Veterans Day (11/11/1963) at Ruth Paine's house, and then he got up early on the morning of Tuesday, November 12th at her home, and went to work.

Lee Harvey Oswald deposited his "Soviet Embassy Letter" in a public mailbox sometime during that day.   The letter carrier obviously picked up that mail before 5pm.   

Or do you suppose that there were no public mailboxes anywhere near the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building in Dallas -- or in Irving, Texas, for that matter?

Sheesh,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo
Irving

[Michael Clark]

10 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

David,

..........

Lee Harvey Oswald spent Veterans Day (11/11/1963) at Ruth Paine's house, and then he got up early on the morning of Tuesday, November 12th at her home, and went to work.

Lee Harvey Oswald deposited his "Soviet Embassy Letter" in a public mailbox sometime during that day.   The letter carrier obviously picked up that mail before 5pm.   

 

 

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

As for my offering Warren Commission quotes -- I've offered perhaps more than any other writer here.  But still I get attacked for my views -- so I'm tired of all that work.  If a person doesn't want to crack a book and read it, that's their problem.

 

[Paul Trejo]

On 8/1/2017 at 11:07 PM, James DiEugenio said:

That's a good one Paul, even for you.

I like the way you ignored everything that Chris brought up, which goes to the heart of the matter.

And if anyone can make sense about your motivation for Oswald writing the letter, I would like to hear it. Not from you but from them.

James,

I take it that you never read the WC testimony of Ruth and Michael Paine on this topic.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 3, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 2:06 AM, Chris Newton said:

5. According to Ruth the first get together was an "informal opening for confidence" which took place between Ruth and FBI Agent Hosty on Nov. 1st. Ruth invited Hosty, who arrived alone (against FBI regulations), inside and he sat on her famous couch. They "conversed about the weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes in Germany at the time."  I highly recommend picking up Ruth's actual testimony right here...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=24&search=weather

...as she goes off the rails. Classic disassociation.

Where is the part where she tells Hosty that ....even though she doesn't know where Oswald is living, that she has all his stuff not ten feet away in the garage?

She says she told Hosty about the job at the TSBD and that he was staying at an unknown rooming house.

6. The "forgot to tell the FBI" Oswald rooming house phone number is a problem too.

Note: If the Paine line had a tap, as suggested elsewhere in this forum,  then I assume the infamous call by Ruth "because Marina missed him so" would have revealed the Oswald rooming house number and conversation as well?

Chris,

By the numbers:

5.  It's great that you posted the actual testimony of Ruth Paine about FBI agent James Hosty's visits to her home on November 1st and 5th, 1963.   Let's take a good look.

It is incorrect to presume that the first visit by Hosty was nothing but and "informal opening for confidence", although that is what Hosty said.  Hosty lied.  Hosty also lied when he said that his visit was about Marina Oswald, because she was a foreign national.  

How do we know he lied?  Because of Ruth Paine's further testimony.   Here is how James Hosty opened this first conversation, allegedly about Marina Oswald:

5.1.  Did Lee Harvey Oswald live there?   Ruth said no.

5.2.  DId she know where Lee Oswald lived?   Ruth said no, but she knew it was somewhere in Dallas.

5.3.  Did she know where Lee Oswald worked?   Ruth said, yes, but that Lee would be at her home on weekends, and that Hosty was welcome to drop by then to meet him.

So much for Hosty's "informal opening for confidence."

Notice that none of Ruth Paine's replies were "going off the rails."   Ruth Paine always remained cool, calm and collected.

6.  Now -- why did Ruth Paine not volunteer more information about Lee Harvey Oswald?   Because, as she testified later, Ruth had the highest respect for the FBI, and she honestly and truly thought that they had all the answers, anyway.  She said it was it was a little bit odd that the FBI didn't already know Lee Oswald's address, phone number, place of employment and so on, because well, they were the FBI!

NOTE: I agree with your premise, Chris, that the known wire-tap of Ruth's house on the day of the JFK assassination is almost certainly linked to these visits by James Hosty.  Hosty was not only watching Oswald -- Hosty was also watching Michael and Ruth Paine.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 3, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[David Josephs]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 7:57 PM, Paul Trejo said:

Lee Harvey Oswald deposited his "Soviet Embassy Letter" in a public mailbox sometime during that day.   The letter carrier obviously picked up that mail before 5pm.   

Or do you suppose that there were no public mailboxes anywhere near the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building in Dallas?

Sheesh,

The postmark says "Irving" TX not Dallas Paul....

If you can't even pick up on the obvious, imagine what you look like here when you try something difficult.

As for my tone...  you remain one of the worst offenders when it comes to posting without backup... Your opinions are only valued if you've established yourself some credibility...

You think you have credibility here Paul?  Enough where others are interested in your ongoing fact-less opinions?

When Oswald supposedly had a chance to mail the Money Order and coupon from the Main Dallas Post Office, he didn't.  Instead it is postmarked as deposited in zone 12...

So you see Paul... your lack of "attention to detail" is why no one here cares to hear from you...  You make sh!t up and then qualify it as your opinion...  Sorry buddy, not going to leave you or that approach alone as long as you're polluting these forums...

Maybe if you took a second to THINK about your reply...  first. 

FWIW - THAT's what a "1" in front of a "2" looks like.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by David Josephs