EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[David Josephs]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 10:51 AM, Paul Jolliffe said:

Because these are restricted files, I can't tell if any of them are duplicates. Even so, this guy has FBI files that are off limits from the mid 1960's, at least.

Why? Did the FBI recruit him as an informant, a source, a "PCI", a contact, or whatever the hell they call their guys? Why are they still hidden?

It is still mighty curious that Grossi was of such intense interest that his unknown benefactor from the WWII era had such clout that he could get him a job in a national security sensitive firm in 1963, right alongside our man "Oswald"! 

FWIW   https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137447#relPageId=2&tab=page 

 

JOHN CAESAR GROSSI  (heavily redacted)

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

7 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

FWIW   https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137447#relPageId=2&tab=page 

 

JOHN CAESAR GROSSI  (heavily redacted)

 

Thanks for posting that, David. This report from 1944 (Grossi was only 17 years old at the time!) further heightens my strong suspicion that John Caesar Grossi was used by/in contact with the FBI in some capacity for decades to come.  Grossi's son told John K. in an interview that his father got the job in 1963 at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall (right alongside our "Oswald") as the result of a friendship with a mysterious benefactor he had known since he was a teenager. That anonymous do-gooder with that kind of clout could only be the FBI.

And why would the FBI put Grossi at JCS in early 1963?

To keep an eye on our recent defector from the USSR, a man on whom the FBI had officially closed the book in 1962. None of us really believe that Hoover's FBI  in 1962 would have taken no further interest in an apparent Marxist/Commie/defector/traitor with a shady Russian wife. John Fain may have really retired in 1962, but I am certain the FBI kept tabs on our "Oswald" continuously. 

And Grossi was their eyes and ears at JCS before Hosty "officially" re-opened the case in 1963. 

What do you think?

[John Butler]

David,

I haven't a clue about Fred's wife or wifes?  He has a different wife here- Elizabeth A Smith.  Although Fred's name is not here this info fits him.

Edited December 13, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

I agree that mother Mary Fuhrman's timely visit to Virginia in the fall of 1952 is mighty convenient.

Did you know that Yorkville's 86th Street was the hub of the post WWII refugee/immigrant population in NYC? I did not.

But consider this passage from http://www.yorkville-kleindeutschlandhistoricalsociety.com/history.html :

Yet Yorkville survived World War Two and, after the War more Germans, both Christian and Jewish, came to Yorkville where they found refuge from all aspects of the War and, where they began to build a new life in this new “Little Germany or Kleindeutschland”.  They fuelled even more the vibrant cultural life of 86^th Street, the hub of the now multi-cultural European population, where the Poles, Czechs, Austrians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Russians, and other Eastern and Middle Europeans created their pockets. Many names were given to 86^th Street: Sauerkraut Boulevard, The German Broadway, or the German Boulevard among others.  Shopkeepers and customers were neighbors and family, and the compatibility among the customs of the different cultures lead to mutual respect and even sometimes forbidden, "inter-marriage" among the populations. 

86^th Street had a reputation all of its own.  It was where the populations all centered their life, eating, drinking, singing, dancing, and socializing.  If they didn’t live in Yorkville they came there to get a taste of home.  There were scores of "Vereins" like sports, singing, literary clubs; newspapers, theaters, shops, churches - all catering to the needs of the German speaking foreigner.  He need not venture out to the rest of the city.  Everything was here.  There were also pockets of Jewish residents such as the Marx Brothers; there were Greeks, Italians, and Puerto Ricans too. 

But the largest non-German speaking population to reside in Yorkville was the Irish, who mingled happily on 86^th Street with the Europeans.  The Avenues and the side streets were not only residential but housed ethnic shops and smaller ethnic restaurants, bierstubes, and other drinking establishments.  It was one big family, until the mid 50s when they tore down the Third Avenue El, and its population with it. 

Paul,

What better place for a communist organizer?  Two theories are most relevant to Harvey Oswald.  One he is an immigrant child brought here after WWII and is put into the Oswald Project and given over to Marguerite Oswald (John Armstrong's theory).  Ours at the moment says Harvey Oswald may be a home grown Hungarian child, raised in the kind of neighborhood you describe.  And, his father is Emil Gardos and the Uncle / brother in law is Fred Blair.  And, because of the red scare the Gardos has to leave the country.  The question is did they take John or turn him over to the Oswald project. 

This Hungarian child has the means to learn many different languages in this small area/large population melting pot.

From what you are saying Paul, there is a good chance that the Gardos and Fuhrman's may have met.  I tried to link them by some reference to communism.  There is none.  The Fuhrman's records are practically  non-existent.  That's suspicious. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

8 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

And why would the FBI put Grossi at JCS in early 1963?

Paul...  in his section in the HSCA he has FBI reports regarding his ongoing criminal activity thru 1975... 

what gives you the impression he "worked" for the FBI - I either missed it or didn't follow.... thx

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/showlist.php?docset=1239&sort=date&page=2  

	193.	NO TITLE, SUBJECTS: EVID, LTR, FPT, HWD, JCGR, INTV, MITCHELL, ROBERT LEE RIF#: 124-10208-10297   (01/30/75)   FBI#: 88-61118-26
	194.	NO TITLE, SUBJECTS: JCGR, FUG, APPREHENDED, BURBANK, CA RIF#: 124-10208-10298   (04/12/75)   FBI#: 88-61118-27

[Paul Jolliffe]

John, 

I agree that one of those two theories is most likely. At the moment, I am not sure which way I am leaning. Either could work.

You mentioned earlier some confusion about the "Elizabeth A. Smith" who, according to the LifeStory site was Fred Blair's wife. 

Well, she may have been his wife at some point, but I'll bet they divorced - her gravestone makes no mention of him or any other husband, she seems to have been buried in the Smith family plot of the Forest Home Cemetery in Milwaukee in 1961, so I don't think Fred meant much to her by then.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/84911794/elizabeth-a_-smith

 

Here's a weird one for you: President Kennedy's first Treasurer of the United States was named . . . Elizabeth Smith.

https://www.jfklibrary.org/asset-viewer/archives/JFKWHP/1961/Month 01/Day 30/JFKWHP-1961-01-30-B

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Paul...  in his section in the HSCA he has FBI reports regarding his ongoing criminal activity thru 1975... 

what gives you the impression he "worked" for the FBI - I either missed it or didn't follow.... thx

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/showlist.php?docset=1239&sort=date&page=2  

	193.	NO TITLE, SUBJECTS: EVID, LTR, FPT, HWD, JCGR, INTV, MITCHELL, ROBERT LEE RIF#: 124-10208-10297   (01/30/75)   FBI#: 88-61118-26
	194.	NO TITLE, SUBJECTS: JCGR, FUG, APPREHENDED, BURBANK, CA RIF#: 124-10208-10298   (04/12/75)   FBI#: 88-61118-27

David, 

I should have been more precise: I suspect he was used by the FBI as a source. The JCS thing is so suspicious - Grossi's son told John Kowalski (quoted earlier) that JCG got his job at JCS  in 1963 because of his longstanding connection (since he was a teenager!) with someone who had the clout to put him at a national security related firm, right alongside our "Oswald"! 

That is NOT a coincidence! 

It's gotta be the FBI!

[David Josephs]

21 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I haven't a clue about Fred's wife or wifes?  He has a different wife here- Elizabeth A Smith.  Although Fred's name is not here this info fits him.

There were like 10 children, why couldn't this have been one of his brothers?

[Paul Jolliffe]

David,

Here's what John Kowalski wrote on Tuesday at 12:50 about his interview with JCG's son:

Paul:

When I was researching my Osborne story who alias was John Howard Bowen, I did some research on career criminal John Caesar Grossi who worked with Oswald at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval. Was interested in Grossi because one of his many aliases was John Bowen. Ordered a copy of his prison record from Leavenworth prison where he was doing time for auto theft. James Earl Ray did time at Leavenworth in the 1950s but am not sure if they were there at the same time and knew each other. His prison record indicated that he mailed a check to F. Ryder at 305 E Cason St. Irving Texas. The 1954 Irving City Directory shows that Homer Ryder lives at that address, and the the 1940 US census states that Homer had a daughter named Fleta and son named Dial.  Looks like there is a connection between the bogus rifle work and Oswald's friend at JCS.

I tracked down Grossi's son, John Bowen and interviewed him. He continues to use the Bowen name even though he knows his father's name was an alias. He did not have much contact with his father as he lived in Canada while Grossi remained in the US. One thing he did tell me was that Grossi, who was also a talented commercial artist, got the job at JCS through someone, whose name he does not know, who had tried to help Grossi abandon his criminal ways in his teens.

[David Josephs]

9 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

It's gotta be the FBI!

That's kinda what I mean...  the FBI is not a person whose name you'd know....

JCS was a CIA affiliated location, not FBI....  yet it's an FBI report that states DeMohrenschildt's daughter and husband - the TAYLOR's - help Oswald move Marina from staying in Ft Worth at "Mrs. JOHN / ELENA/ HALL"    Did I miss something?  Wasn't Marina at the Paine's by then?

[David Josephs]

From October, 1962 to April, 1963, Lee Oswald worked at a graphic arts company based in Dallas, Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. 

According to Stovall’s (the "S" of JCS) testimony, his company did classified work for the US government. “We are cleared through the Navy Bureau Materiel here, although I believe it now has been incorporated under the Department of Defense as a single unit… 

I don't think we need to look to the FBI for how Grossi got into JCS but rather ONI, DoD,
wasn't the Cuban Missile crisis October 1962, the month Oswald starts?

Cuban Missile Crisis: October 16, 1962 – October 28, 1962...  I believe he started work a week or so previous as his first check was Oct 17th....

Edited December 13, 2019 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

the woman said FATHER & UNCLE - So, who were Emil's brothers?  And NAOMI BLAIR, Fred's sister is also a decent candidate for the caller, no?

 

The correspondence of the 1960's and 1970's is dominated by exchanges with Blair's sister Naomi and his sister and brother-in-law Grace and Emil Gardos who resided in Hungary, though there are numerous exchanges concerning political conditions in Wisconsin throughout.

 

Summary Information

Title: Fred and Mary Keith Blair Papers
Inclusive Dates: 1923-1994

Creators:

• Blair, Fred Bassett, 1906-
• Blair, Mary Keith

Call Number: Mss 234; Tape 303A; AB 881

Quantity: 3.2 c.f. (7 archives boxes), 1 tape recording, and 1 film

Repository:

Wisconsin Historical Society, Division of Library, Archives, and Museum Collections

Archival Locations:

See the catalog entry for information on possible additional materials and shelf locations.

Wisconsin Historical Society (Map)

Abstract:

Papers of a leader of the Wisconsin Communist Party, mainly consisting of correspondence, writings, biographical material, and subject files. Biographical material includes transcripts of two taped interviews (one of the tapes is in the collection) dealing with his views on politics and the Vietnam War and a film of a Great American Dream Machine (WNET-TV) episode based on his life. Correspondence, 1941-1979, is incomplete although it provides a picture of some party concerns. The later files are dominated by exchanges with a sister residing in Hungary. Writings, 1934-1979, include poetry and copies of speeches, articles, and press releases, many apparently written in behalf of the party. Of the subject files, the material on the Wisconsin Communist Party is most valuable. Here are included materials issued by the party which are not identified as having been written by Blair and clippings pertaining to the Wisconsin Gentile League and an advertisement placed in some Wisconsin newspapers.

Language: English

URL to cite for this finding aid: http://digital.library.wisc.edu/1711.dl/wiarchives.uw-whs-mss00234

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

There were like 10 children, why couldn't this have been one of his brothers?

David,

The info on this graphic applies to Fred.  Fred ran for Congress, as a communist party member, for the office of Senator.  This was in 1938.  It is Fred's info. 

Sandy my wife thinks she may have another reference for him under the name Charles W. Blair.  I told her to make sure she cross references that.  She's working on that and I'll mention the results later.  I'm finding things, but not the right things.

[John Butler]

David Joseph's said, "the woman said FATHER & UNCLE - So, who were Emil's brothers?  And NAOMI BLAIR, Fred's sister is also a decent candidate for the caller, no? "

I had discussed this with Jim Hargrove and he thought the regional accent of the people of Wisconsin could be taken as a foreign accent.  That might be possible.  So, I went back and researched again the children of John and Mary Blair.  Didn't find anything interesting except Fred's wifes. 

I'm keeping the option open that it is not any of Fred's family that were the mysterious caller.  I thought at one time someone from that family might be?

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

David,

I haven't a clue about Fred's wife or wifes?  He has a different wife here- Elizabeth A Smith.  Although Fred's name is not here this info fits him.

It just gets more confusing:  Mary, Naomi, and Elizabeth?  Or, is Elizabeth also the other Mary?  Maybe all four will get together in a "merrymeet".  Or, is that communist code for something?

I'll keep looking.

Edited December 14, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Here's something for someone to work on if they can access genealogy.com.  I don't seem to be able to do that.  This is as close as I have gotten to anybody in Hungary.  This guy seems to be the grandson of Grace Amalia Gardos.