Did the limo slow down or speed up on the Z-film?

[Len Colby]

A Nobel Prize (1968) winning physicist from Berkley who studied the Z - film said it slowed down.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...8_4_Alvarez.pdf

See page 13 of 15

People on another forum told me Robert Groden and the HSCA reached the same conclusion.

Edited for clarity.

Edited February 3, 2006 by Len Colby

[Frank Agbat]

A Nobel Prize (1968) winning physicist from Berkley who studied the Z - film said it did.

...

He did?

I read the entire article and it doesn't state that the limo did anything but decelerate at a notable rate. His hypothesis centers around lifting from the accelerator pedal of a heavy car in a low gear in response to a postulated siren sounded by one of the motorcycle policemen.

The z-film as we have it (along with the Nix film, et al) does not show the limo stopping...

[Len Colby]

A Nobel Prize (1968) winning physicist from Berkley who studied the Z - film said it did.

...

He did?

I read the entire article and it doesn't state that the limo did anything but decelerate at a notable rate. His hypothesis centers around lifting from the accelerator pedal of a heavy car in a low gear in response to a postulated siren sounded by one of the motorcycle policemen.

The z-film as we have it (along with the Nix film, et al) does not show the limo stopping...

Frank I didn1 say anything about the limo stopping. I should have been clearer Alvarez said it slowed "suddenly". I edited my previous post for clarity.

Len

[Frank Agbat]

A Nobel Prize (1968) winning physicist from Berkley who studied the Z - film said it did.

...

He did?

I read the entire article and it doesn't state that the limo did anything but decelerate at a notable rate. His hypothesis centers around lifting from the accelerator pedal of a heavy car in a low gear in response to a postulated siren sounded by one of the motorcycle policemen.

The z-film as we have it (along with the Nix film, et al) does not show the limo stopping...

Frank I didn1 say anything about the limo stopping. I should have been clearer Alvarez said it slowed "suddenly". I edited my previous post for clarity.

Len

Sorry, Len. I must've been more under the influence of cold medicine than I realized! I read your post and was completely convinced you mentioned stopping... Sheesh -- I need to get some sleep!

[David G. Healy]

A Nobel Prize (1968) winning physicist from Berkley who studied the Z - film said it did.

...

He did?

I read the entire article and it doesn't state that the limo did anything but decelerate at a notable rate. His hypothesis centers around lifting from the accelerator pedal of a heavy car in a low gear in response to a postulated siren sounded by one of the motorcycle policemen.

The z-film as we have it (along with the Nix film, et al) does not show the limo stopping...

Frank I didn1 say anything about the limo stopping. I should have been clearer Alvarez said it slowed "suddenly". I edited my previous post for clarity.

Len

Sorry, Len. I must've been more under the influence of cold medicine than I realized! I read your post and was completely convinced you mentioned stopping... Sheesh -- I need to get some sleep!

Maybe Senor Colby will post other DP films which show the Limo slowing on Elm Street --

I suspect a full frontal assault from the **jet** effect crowd, soon!

[Pamela Brown]

A Nobel Prize (1968) winning physicist from Berkley who studied the Z - film said it slowed down.

Agreed. The limo slowed twice; once before the fatal head shot at Z-313 and again afterward, just before Clint Hill climbs on the back. Greer finally floors the limo as Hill is trying to step on, causing Hill to nearly be run down by the Queen Mary II SS car. In addition to slowing, Greer turns toward the rear and is facing JFK when the headshot is fired, leading to the theory that Greer fired it (he didn't, but his actions did nothing to help JFK). The limo is picking up speed as it heads into the Triple Underpass; when it emerges it overtakes the Lead Car.

[Al Carrier]

A Nobel Prize (1968) winning physicist from Berkley who studied the Z - film said it slowed down.

Agreed. The limo slowed twice; once before the fatal head shot at Z-313 and again afterward, just before Clint Hill climbs on the back. Greer finally floors the limo as Hill is trying to step on, causing Hill to nearly be run down by the Queen Mary II SS car. In addition to slowing, Greer turns toward the rear and is facing JFK when the headshot is fired, leading to the theory that Greer fired it (he didn't, but his actions did nothing to help JFK). The limo is picking up speed as it heads into the Triple Underpass; when it emerges it overtakes the Lead Car.

One must put themselves in Greer's position at the time of the assassination. If this was a triangulation of fire which IMHO it obviously was, Greer would have first been caught off-guard in the scerene plaza and then confused as to the shot origin. In looking over his shoulder, he was checking on the commotion in the rear of the limo and when he observes the headshot, he ducks and then is delayed in his reaction as to where the shots are coming from. He eventually does the right thing and accelerates out of the plaza. It is not unreasonable to think that one would decelerate when they take their eyes off the road and look behind them. While it is true that Greer was supposed to be a trained professional and should have reacted quicker and per P&P, he was also human and real time/real life does not always accept training.

Al

[Tim Carroll]

One must put themselves in Greer's position at the time of the assassination. If this was a triangulation of fire which IMHO it obviously was, Greer would have first been caught off-guard in the serene plaza and then confused as to the shot origin. In looking over his shoulder, he was checking on the commotion in the rear of the limo and when he observes the headshot, he ducks and then is delayed in his reaction as to where the shots are coming from.

This perspective is consistent with Dave Powers' sense that the shots were coming from in front and that they were driving into an ambush.

T.C.

[Len Colby]

No problem Frank just don’t operate any heavy machinery under the influence or ouch!! (Did you see “The Machinist”?)

Sorry, Len. I must've been more under the influence of cold medicine than I realized! I read your post and was completely convinced you mentioned stopping... Sheesh -- I need to get some sleep!

[Adam Wilkinson]

Although not having to do with the Z film, here are some

Witness statements:

Bo Byers: (Houston Chronicle reporter) " The presidential limousine almost came to a stop, almost to a dead stop"

Bob Clarke: (ABC reporter) reported on air that the limousine stopped on Elm street during the shooting.

Merriman Smith: (UPI white House reporter) "The presidents car, possibly as much as 150 or 220 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly."

James W. Courson: (DPD motorcycle officer) "The limo came to a stop and Mrs Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner of Elm. Then the Secret Service agent helped push her back in the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed."

Bobby Joe Dale: (DPD motorcycle officer) "After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop...."

Clemon Earl Johnson: (standing on the triple overpass) "You could see it (the limo) speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they threw Mrs. Kennedy back in the car..."

Robert Macneil: (NBC reporter) "The president's driver slammed on the brakes - after the third shot."

Henry Burroughs: (AP photographer) "We heard the shots and the motorcade stopped"

Earle Brown: (DPD patrolman) "....it stopped...after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped."

Bobby Hargis: (DPD motorcycle officer) "...the presidential car slowed down.."

D. V. Harkness: (DPD sergeant) " I saw the first shot and the President's car slow(ed) down to almost a stop."

John Ready: (SS agent) "...the president's car slowed"

Mrs. Earle Cabell: "I was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still..when the sound of the shot was heard"

Phill Willis (Sth Est corner of Elm & Houston) "...(came) to a temporary halt before proceeding onto the underpass"

Nellie Connally: " JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot"

Robert Baskin: (Dallas Morning News reporter) "the motorcade ground to a halt"

Mary Woodward: (Dallas Morning News reporter) "the car came to a halt"

James Altgens: (AP photographer) "...the driver of the limo apparently realised what had happened and speeded up towards the Stemmons Freeway..."

Alan Smith: (Nth pergola, close to Hesters) "...The car went about 5 feet and stopped"

Mrs. Ruth M. Smith: (2nd floor court house) "The presidential limo came to a stop"

Mary Moorman: "The President was moving at the time I took the second picture, and when I heard the shots I have the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesitated and then drove off in a hurry"

[Bill Miller]

One must put themselves in Greer's position at the time of the assassination. If this was a triangulation of fire which IMHO it obviously was, Greer would have first been caught off-guard in the scerene plaza and then confused as to the shot origin. In looking over his shoulder, he was checking on the commotion in the rear of the limo and when he observes the headshot, he ducks and then is delayed in his reaction as to where the shots are coming from. He eventually does the right thing and accelerates out of the plaza. It is not unreasonable to think that one would decelerate when they take their eyes off the road and look behind them. While it is true that Greer was supposed to be a trained professional and should have reacted quicker and per P&P, he was also human and real time/real life does not always accept training.

Al

I agree with Al. Greer had to decide whether to retreat or continue on and had only a brief instant to make that decision. Keeping in mind the direction the limo was traveling ... it may have been difficult for Greer to know if maybe someone on the underpass had fired shots at the limo. It appears to me that Greer did the only thing he could have done.

Bill

[J. Raymond Carroll]

One must put themselves in Greer's position at the time of the assassination. If this was a triangulation of fire which IMHO it obviously was, Greer would have first been caught off-guard in the scerene plaza and then confused as to the shot origin. In looking over his shoulder, he was checking on the commotion in the rear of the limo and when he observes the headshot, he ducks and then is delayed in his reaction as to where the shots are coming from. He eventually does the right thing and accelerates... out of the plaza. It is not unreasonable to think that one would decelerate when they take their eyes off the road and look behind them. While it is true that Greer was supposed to be a trained professional and should have reacted quicker and per P&P, he was also human and real time/real life does not always accept training.

Al

I agree with Al. Greer had to decide whether to retreat or continue on and had only a brief instant to make that decision. Keeping in mind the direction the limo was traveling ... it may have been difficult for Greer to know if maybe someone on the underpass had fired shots at the limo. It appears to me that Greer did the only thing he could have done.

Bill

Greer had to decide whether to retreat or continue? Surely Greer knew that retreat could almost never be an option in a motorcade like this one. Surely a ten-year old could have told Greer that the incredible power of acceleration that he controlled with his hands and feet was the ONLY WEAPON at his disposal that could help the occupants, the people who were in his custody and control. This would be true no matter what direction the bullets were coming from. He did not have to to stop to gawk at the occupants of the back seat, and unless my memory deceives me, he turned to look back more than once.

Greer's job was simple: Hit the gas if anything bad starts happening. Instead he hit the brake and slowed the limo suddenly, according to Nobel phyics guy Alvarez among others. As a consequence of Greer's action, we see what we see in Zapruder frame 313.

[Len Colby]

Greer had to decide whether to retreat or continue? Surely Greer knew that retreat could almost never be an option in a motorcade like this one. Surely a ten-year old could have told Greer that the incredible power of acceleration that he controlled with his hands and feet was the ONLY WEAPON at his disposal that could help the occupants, the people who were in his custody and control. This would be true no matter what direction the bullets were coming from. He did not have to to stop to gawk at the occupants of the back seat, and unless my memory deceives me, he turned to look back more than once.

Greer's job was simple: Hit the gas if anything bad starts happening. Instead he hit the brake and slowed the limo suddenly, according to Nobel phyics guy Alvarez among others. As a consequence of Greer's action, we see what we see in Zapruder frame 313.

With all due respect Raymond I think Al knows more about this that you (or I for that matter) about this. If the shots were coming from the front he might have put the car's occupants in greater danger. It is easy to find fault with his actions with hindsight but (unless he was aconspirator) he acted poorly for a few seconds while under extreme pressure, caught by surprise and woried about his own saftey. He could have been a 30 year veteran of the service but no amout of training could have really prepared him for this. We can also imagine it took him a couple of seconds to figure out what was going on.

Can you be sure if you were in his place that you would have done any better?

Al - If you were Greer and you thought the shots were coming from the front what would you have done?

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

One must put themselves in Greer's position at the time of the assassination. If this was a triangulation of fire which IMHO it obviously was, Greer would have first been caught off-guard in the scerene plaza and then confused as to the shot origin. In looking over his shoulder, he was checking on the commotion in the rear of the limo and when he observes the headshot, he ducks and then is delayed in his reaction as to where the shots are coming from. He eventually does the right thing and accelerates... out of the plaza. It is not unreasonable to think that one would decelerate when they take their eyes off the road and look behind them. While it is true that Greer was supposed to be a trained professional and should have reacted quicker and per P&P, he was also human and real time/real life does not always accept training.

Al

I agree with Al. Greer had to decide whether to retreat or continue on and had only a brief instant to make that decision. Keeping in mind the direction the limo was traveling ... it may have been difficult for Greer to know if maybe someone on the underpass had fired shots at the limo. It appears to me that Greer did the only thing he could have done.

Bill

Greer had to decide whether to retreat or continue? Surely Greer knew that retreat could almost never be an option in a motorcade like this one. Surely a ten-year old could have told Greer that the incredible power of acceleration that he controlled with his hands and feet was the ONLY WEAPON at his disposal that could help the occupants, the people who were in his custody and control. This would be true no matter what direction the bullets were coming from. He did not have to to stop to gawk at the occupants of the back seat, and unless my memory deceives me, he turned to look back more than once.

Greer's job was simple: Hit the gas if anything bad starts happening. Instead he hit the brake and slowed the limo suddenly, according to Nobel phyics guy Alvarez among others. As a consequence of Greer's action, we see what we see in Zapruder frame 313.

While I agree that Greer's response on the fateful day left a lot to be desired, I've long had a bone to pick with those [not present in this thread, I note] who feel his performance that day in some implicates Secret Service. [There is no shortage of other such implications.] If Greer suspected incoming gunfire from the front [as is indicated by the shot through the windshiled, seen in Altgens' famous photo], his first instinct would be to stop the car, in order not to proceed further into the line of fire. No, it wasn't admirable, and no, it surely wasn't what he was trained to do, but it was a natural, human [to err is...] and understandable response. What's more, if the first noise heard by those in the Plaza sounded like a firecracker or motorcycle back-fire, as many witnesses noted, Greer's response by looking backward before hitting the accelerator may again be an all-too human under-reaction. It is less than we could and should rightfully expect of a driver in his position, and of a driver with his experience, but his instinctive response, sadly, actually facilitated the assassination.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Greer had to decide whether to retreat or continue? Surely Greer knew that retreat could almost never be an option in a motorcade like this one. Surely a ten-year old could have told Greer that the incredible power of acceleration that he controlled with his hands and feet was the ONLY WEAPON at his disposal that could help the occupants, the people who were in his custody and control. This would be true no matter what direction the bullets were coming from. He did not have to to stop to gawk at the occupants of the back seat, and unless my memory deceives me, he turned to look back more than once.

Greer's job was simple: Hit the gas if anything bad starts happening. Instead he hit the brake and slowed the limo suddenly, according to Nobel phyics guy Alvarez among others. As a consequence of Greer's action, we see what we see in Zapruder frame 313.

While I agree that Greer's response on the fateful day left a lot to be desired, I've long had a bone to pick with those [not present in this thread, I note] who feel his performance that day in some implicates Secret Service. [There is no shortage of other such implications.] ...... Greer's response by looking backward before hitting the accelerator may again be an all-too human under-reaction. It is less than we could and should rightfully expect of a driver in his position, and of a driver with his experience, but his instinctive response, sadly, actually facilitated the assassination.

I think we agree that Greer's actions facilitated the assassination. Many remain unconconvinced that a truly instinctive response would have led him to hit the brake as opposed to the accellerator. I can see an argument that hitting the accellerator is more consistent with the powerful human instinct for survival. Since Greer could not possibly hope to fight, his only option lay in flight.

A corollary to that argument would be the claim that Greer's actions were the result of deliberation, and if that were so it might have sinister implications, especially since there is no shortage of other SS actions, or alleged actions, that have such implications.

Edited February 12, 2006 by J. Raymond Carroll